Daylight Savings Time

[Brumby]

When the old Indian was asked about Daylight Savings Time, he replied "Only the government believes that you can cut off one foot from the top of a blanket, sew it on the bottom, and have a longer blanket."

The old Indian had the wrong view of the blanket.

What the government has done with Daylight Saving is (effectively) to cut off one foot from the bottom of the blanket which was hanging over the foot of the bed doing nothing and sewing it onto the top - thus allowing that foot to be utilised.

Fortunately, we don't have to resort to cutting and sewing to achieve this ... we can just pull the blanket up one foot.

[Cerebus]

In London on Midsummers day (June 21) it's full daylight by 4:45 am BST and has been twilight for about 45 minutes, if we didn't have summer time that would be 3:45 am UTC. The sun sets at around 21:20 BST (or 20:20 UTC) and twilight adds another 45 odd minutes again. If we didn't have summer time you could have the sun shining into a window before 4 O'clock in the morning. From about the 18th of May to about the 21st July we don't technically have night at all, what we have is astronomical twilight during the darkest part of the 'night'.

[Mr. Scram]

In London on Midsummers day (June 21) it's full daylight by 4:45 am BST and has been twilight for about 45 minutes, if we didn't have summer time that would be 3:45 am UTC. The sun sets at around 21:20 BST (or 20:20 UTC) and twilight adds another 45 odd minutes again. If we didn't have summer time you could have the sun shining into a window before 4 O'clock in the morning. From about the 18th of May to about the 21st July we don't technically have night at all, what we have is astronomical twilight during the darkest part of the 'night'.

There's a reason DST is more likely to be adopted by countries further from the equator. It simply makes more sense there.

[boffin]

Daylight Saving Time (there's only one Saving, it's not plural), is a crock. 

It's a method by which you convince yourself you're not getting up an hour earlier, by changing the clock forward.  The easier way of doing this would have been just have all government offices open (and close) an hour earlier, the rest of business would have soon followed, and voila you're done.  Instead to appease the masses from complaining that "it's too early to get up", we do this nonsense changing the clocks.

As for complaining that your various pieces of test equipment don't deal with switching back and forth, I think you should look at how complicated the task really is.  There are hundreds and hundreds of distinct time zone combinations (offset, DT offset, start/stop) and they change frequently.  Here in Canada we have 5 time zones (not all of which are on 1hr boundaries), and 5 more daylight time zones; and not every jurisdiction uses daylight savings.  So here in just one (of 10) province we have 3 distinct settings  PST/PDT, MST/MDT and MST year-round.  Of course we change our clocks on the US Schedule, so that means that Europe and North America now also change on different days, resulting in Vancouver being 7,8 or 9 hours off London UK depending on when it is.

I'd really prefer the whole world just went to UTC, like a lot of industries.  All flying (for example) is done in UTC, weather reports are in UTC, flight plans are filed in UTC, so for example while it's currently 14:58 in the afternoon in Sydney Aus,  the weather report for YSSY/Sydney (Kingsford Smith) airport is:  YSSY 090445Z 12015KT CAVOK 32/12 Q1013 FM0500 16018KT CAVOK, or 0445 UTC (by the way, nice weather you've got down there right now).

[Brumby]

The easier way of doing this would have been just have all government offices open (and close) an hour earlier, the rest of business would have soon followed...

Why?  I don't see any compelling reason for them to do so.

In fact, I can see them not following suit.  Workers in those businesses would have less commuter volume to contend with - plus they would have an hour outside their business hours to attend a government agency.

There are a lot of other 'little' reasons why this would (IMHO) be an awkward solution - which includes things like advertised trading hours.

[Cerebus]

There are a lot of other 'little' reasons why this would (IMHO) be an awkward solution - which includes things like advertised trading hours.

There are a lot of places, where there's significant seasonal variation in trade, who advertise different winter and summer opening hours. If every business had traditionally done it, rather than moving the clocks, then you'd think nothing of it.

[Brumby]

In the Greater Sydney Metropolitan Area, I have never come across such differences - except for outdoor public swimming pools where they are closed during the colder months.

But, then, it is a somewhat moderate climate here.

[Cerebus]

I hate to break it to you, but Australia is a bit odd, and so it's not a good place to pick to try and turn anecdote into data.

It's a bit odd population density and distribution wise, it's a bit odd biologically (marsupials everywhere), they even speak funny and think beer doesn't taste right until it's so cold you can't taste it. 

[Mr. Scram]

I hate to break it to you, but Australia is a bit odd, and so it's not a good place to pick to try and turn anecdote into data.

It's a bit odd population density and distribution wise, it's a bit odd biologically (marsupials everywhere), they even speak funny and think beer doesn't taste right until it's so cold you can't taste it. 

They have winter in the summer and still try to lecture us about one hour's difference.

[BrianHG]

I know everyone here is concentrating on office/business hours, trade, but, what about school.  It must follow suit too, otherwise most parents morning ritual would be messed up, as well as all the workers associated with schooling from teachers, administrators, school buss drivers, ect.  If you are going to change the clock system, it need to be done for all all at one time indefinitely.

[donmr]

What are you talking about? How can everyone just drift to doing things whenever they want?  ...

The hours that schools and businesses are open are not fixed by any physical laws.  They are set according to the perceived desires of the bosses, owners, customers, etc.   Given enough time the will settle down to whatever the people want them to be.

The only "advantage" of DST is when it is used for part of the year.  That amounts to a standard "agreement" that everyone will shift their schedule by 1 hour for that time.  If society really agrees that they want this shift than DST is a convenient way to implement it but in today's diverse and global world it really doesn't make sense.

[Rick Law]

Errr...  I don't think it really has a lot to do with farming...

US Federal Gov. first got involved with time-standard during the rail era.  Before then, States or even cities can use whatever time they want to use.  Once trains begin to cross State lines, a standard became necessary.

According to (appropriate enough) Time Magazine, DST was first adopted WW I so as to minimize energy use, repealed after the war with Congress twice-overruled President Woodrow Wilson's vetos.  Reenacted again during WW II - not repealed post WW II.

Those so called "emergency measure" sticking around like glue is not unusual.  New York City still has the "emergency" rent control (Emergency Tenant Protection Act). According to the NY State housing fact sheet: to deal with the emergency of housing shortage immediately following World War II.    Not according to the fact sheet but my speculation:  I think almost everyone this law is intended to protect has long since moved from houses to cemeteries.

[Edit: adding the references I found:]
NY State Housing Fact Sheet:
^{http://www.nyshcr.org/Rent/FactSheets/orafac1.htm}
Time Magazine article on DST:
^{http://time.com/3695333/daylight-saving-time-wwii/}

[Electro Detective]

I hate to break it to you, but Australia is a bit odd, and so it's not a good place to pick to try and turn anecdote into data.

It's a bit odd population density and distribution wise, it's a bit odd biologically (marsupials everywhere),

they even speak funny and think beer doesn't taste right until it's so cold you can't taste it. 

I think you have us mistaken for another location on Earth that speaks funny,
because we don't do much Guinness drinking here 

(unless it's deathly cold and the other beer has run out, served with an apology and re-assuring smile from the bar staff that it is a sort of 'beer')



   

[Brumby]

I hate to break it to you, but Australia is a bit odd, and so it's not a good place to pick to try and turn anecdote into data.

It's a bit odd population density and distribution wise, it's a bit odd biologically (marsupials everywhere), they even speak funny

We like it.

and think beer doesn't taste right until it's so cold you can't taste it. 

When it's 35º or more, when you want a drink - it has to be cold.  Warm drinks taste like ... blehhhh.

[Cerebus]

Yeah, but there's cold beer and there's beer that's Australian cold - it's like you're trying to invent an antipodean version of Landi (An icelandic moonshine often made by freeze 'distillation'). Then again with Fosters you probably don't want to be able to taste it; different story for VB or Emu though. 

[Brumby]

Not being a beer drinker, I can only go on what others have said.... There's a reason why we export Fosters.

[GlennSprigg]

Not being mentally able to 'grasp' how our 'Marsupials' that speak funny have any
relevance to the 'originally' posted question/statement, I only have this to say 
(For the sake of our other worldly compatriots here ....)....

I live (lived) in Adelaide, South Australia. ROUGHLY 60% through our 'continent',
if you are thinking East to West geographically. Our more Eastern cities are what
you probably are used to hearing about, being Melbourne & Sydney.....
and they are 1/2 hour ahead of Adelaide. Now, "Daylight Savings" time in Adelaide
puts them "in line" with those Eastern states, during the 'Summer' season.....

There is a PUSH though, to PERMANENTLY 'Align' with those Eastern states... 
Yes, we can align ourselves for a 'typical' 8 hour business/transaction period,
but why should EVERYONE in South Australia, (Adelaides 'state'), get up half an
hour earlier in winter darkness, JUST to appease those who WANT to 'Align'
themselves with the Eastern states during 'Business Hours'......

Tell me that THIS is not a simple solution................
Those companies that WANT/NEED to 'align' themselves with the Eastern States,
start work at 8:30am instead of 9:00am.....   What's the difference !!!!!   
No one else in the State is affected ....   Off my Soap-Box now 

[boffin]

The easier way of doing this would have been just have all government offices open (and close) an hour earlier, the rest of business would have soon followed...

Why?  I don't see any compelling reason for them to do so.

In fact, I can see them not following suit.  Workers in those businesses would have less commuter volume to contend with - plus they would have an hour outside their business hours to attend a government agency.

There are a lot of other 'little' reasons why this would (IMHO) be an awkward solution - which includes things like advertised trading hours.

If there isn't a compelling reason, why do they do it? (which is exactly what DST is )

[Brumby]

I'm not sure I follow your line of thought.

You said "the rest of business would have soon followed".  This is hypothetical.  Your opinion about this and mine differ - but it is still just a suggestion on your part.

Then you say "why do they do it?" - which is a statement of fact, that something is/has actually being done.  Very different to being hypothetical.

So I'm left wondering what the exact, specific subject is - or are you actually talking about two different things here?

[vk6zgo]

I hate to break it to you, but Australia is a bit odd, and so it's not a good place to pick to try and turn anecdote into data.

It's a bit odd population density and distribution wise, it's a bit odd biologically (marsupials everywhere), they even speak funny

We like it.

and think beer doesn't taste right until it's so cold you can't taste it. 

When it's 35º or more, when you want a drink - it has to be cold.  Warm drinks taste like ... blehhhh.

When I was working in Wyndham WA many years ago, the old Landrovers had no airconds, & it was 40C plus during the Dry Season.

When  I came into the pub after being on the road for a few hours, I would grab a " pub squash"
(The Town hotel did the best ones).

It almost hissed going down
Only after that could I really enjoy my first beer!

When I was in the UK a few years later, I tried most of the ( then) standard English beers.
Watneys "Red" at room ( alright cellar ) temperature was like drinking dishwater.

 We went up to London & found a pub with Swan Lager on tap-----cold!!
It was full of Brits of all types enjoying the "Swan", as well as a fair sprinkling of Aussies.

The only beer  I found which is quite drinkable at room temperature was Newcastle Brown Ale.

[CatalinaWOW]

In the American Southwest there is a special kind of beer.  Rodeo cold.  A case of beer that has been thrown in the back of a pickup and spent the day in the sun.  It isn't as good as a frosty one, but it sure beats nothing.

When you like beer almost any condition will do. 

[vk6zgo]

Not being mentally able to 'grasp' how our 'Marsupials' that speak funny have any
relevance to the 'originally' posted question/statement, I only have this to say 
(For the sake of our other worldly compatriots here ....)....

I live (lived) in Adelaide, South Australia. ROUGHLY 60% through our 'continent',
if you are thinking East to West geographically. Our more Eastern cities are what
you probably are used to hearing about, being Melbourne & Sydney.....
and they are 1/2 hour ahead of Adelaide. Now, "Daylight Savings" time in Adelaide
puts them "in line" with those Eastern states, during the 'Summer' season.....

There is a PUSH though, to PERMANENTLY 'Align' with those Eastern states... 
Yes, we can align ourselves for a 'typical' 8 hour business/transaction period,
but why should EVERYONE in South Australia, (Adelaides 'state'), get up half an
hour earlier in winter darkness, JUST to appease those who WANT to 'Align'
themselves with the Eastern states during 'Business Hours'......

Tell me that THIS is not a simple solution................
Those companies that WANT/NEED to 'align' themselves with the Eastern States,
start work at 8:30am instead of 9:00am.....   What's the difference !!!!!   
No one else in the State is affected ....   Off my Soap-Box now 

This seems to be the reason being pushed to introduce DST in WA.
As it is, we are on the same, or a similar time zone to most of our important trading partners in the region.
We are supposed to dislocate this so  as to make it easier to work with the Eastern States.

Some folks don't  really understand about time zones, at all----- we are supposedly 2 hours behind the ES because we are "backward".

[vk6zgo]

In the American Southwest there is a special kind of beer.  Rodeo cold.  A case of beer that has been thrown in the back of a pickup and spent the day in the sun.  It isn't as good as a frosty one, but it sure beats nothing.

When you like beer almost any condition will do.

I do draw the line somewhere!

Some don't ---back in my Wyndham days (it was pretty much a " cow town", where the biggest business was the Abattoir, which operated during the macabrely named "killing season"), we had a party at the " single men's quarters", complete with a keg, & a device called a "Temprite" which kept the beer cold.

Next morning, someone asked "Where's Paddy?.

We found him lying under the tap of the (long turned off) Temprite, drinking the last trickle of warm ( hell no, hot!) beer .

This sort of fits into the original topic, as Wyndham is pretty close to how far East you can get & still be in the WAST zone, so the sun rises quite early.
It is also in the Tropics, so that keg would have well & truly warmed up!

[Cerebus]

When I was in the UK a few years later, I tried most of the ( then) standard English beers.
Watneys "Red" at room ( alright cellar ) temperature was like drinking dishwater.

That must have been some time ago. Watney's Red Barrel thankfully disappeared along with the 1970s. It wasn't actually beer, just the cleaning fluid from the brewery lines at Mortlake. (I had my 21st birthday party in the tap room at the Mortlake brewery which conclusively proves that I can organise a piss-up in a brewery contrary to the claims of some of my detractors.)

[Brumby]

Some folks don't  really understand about time zones, at all----- we are supposedly 2 hours behind the ES because we are "backward".

I've never felt that way about WA.  It's on the other side of the country for crying out load ... and it's a big country - comparable to the USA.

For example -
 - New York to Los Angeles is nearly 13,000km 3960km
.... and there's 3 hours in time zone differences
 - Brisbane to Perth is nearly 12,000km 3660km
 - Sydney to Perth is nearly 11,000km 3350km
... and there's only 2 hours in time zone differences

If you look at the meridians of longitude, each 15º represents a 1 hour difference - and the USA have done it right with a 3 hour difference in time zones from either side of the country, but when looking at Australia, Sydney and Perth are closer to the same 3 hour difference than the 2 hour that is currently in place.  This has the effect of putting Perth into a position which is almost like DST as a starting point.

In my opinion, the idea of pushing Perth into advancing an hour for DST is not sensible.  Besides, everybody in the East realises how far away it is and we don't expect WA to be anything but in a significantly different time zone.

Queensland, on the other hand...