Author Topic: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead  (Read 17238 times)

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Online Brumby

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2021, 12:31:57 am »
Signal is not a social media platform. It's a secure communications application.

That is what creates interest for me!
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2021, 12:21:44 pm »
Signal seems to want a hell of a lot of permissions compared to VSee. Just saying.


P.S. Ah, yes, it does support iPhone / iPad / Mac
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 12:41:55 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2021, 12:27:26 pm »
The point is, every other communication channel I use, without exception, works on my phone, iPad, and computers. Meaning that I can have any single device nearby for all those services. But no, not WhatsApp, they leave out the iPad.

Well, damn, I never knew that, you're right, it's not even available on iPads with 4G and a SIM, I wonder what the reasoning behind that is
My hunch is something to do with their fundamental architecture, since the desktop apps (which I suspect are simply encapsulated websites) demand a connection to your phone. But nonetheless, if they can somehow manage to have the phone retransmit the messages to a website, they should be able to then have that website initiate push notifications to a native iPad app.

Alas, they have no motivation to do so, having expressly stated that they have no plans to develop an iPad version  |O
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2021, 02:32:29 pm »
Thank you for the heads up; I will investigate.

Obviously that, several years after installing such great product, the switch becomes extremely hard especially living abroad and keeping in touch with family and friends. Oh well...

Don't be dramatic. :)
Whatsapp is not so good and it is not better than other messengers - it is not difficult to make the transition to any other. Well, a couple of minutes of excitement and discomfort from the new environment, which you may like more.
My wife and I can adapt easily to any interface thrown at us; try that with my elderly inlaws and family that live overseas and do not have me around to teach them the ropes. THAT'S what is hard to switch.
I just had this discussion with my parents. So I want them to stop using Skype, mainly because it is a broken software, that doesn't work.
Like, microphone quality is dogpoo compared to anything else on the phone, and half the time it locks up on the desktop, showing you offline while not and so on. Anyway...

So I learned that  they registered on FB. They use MSN messenger, which is "Not that bad, since FB got it". And they are not interested in switching to anything else, in fact I'm the weird one for using something else than everyone. They dont remember the login information, it is saved on their laptop as a TXT file, and there is no backup. And the email they created the account with - it doesnt even work anymore.

Here in the NL, there are companies that cannot even be reached by anything else than Whatsapp. Email bounces back, phone doesnt get picked up. And I'm not talking about the local bakery. These were real estate agents and companies that do accounting for your tax return.
So, I gave up on this completely. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 02:35:25 pm by NANDBlog »
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2021, 03:28:59 pm »
So, I gave up on this completely. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.

Yep, me too, and I guess most converts here are employees, or Elon Musk type of business man.  :P

In my case, I'm an entrepreneur, you just can not keep bugging and nagging people especially your high valued clients/customers to move to other chat platform you preferred personally, it is bad for business and just suicidal.

Offline RenThraysk

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2021, 04:01:36 pm »
Signal seems to want a hell of a lot of permissions compared to VSee. Just saying.


P.S. Ah, yes, it does support iPhone / iPad / Mac

As a software developer with a keen interest in cryptography, VSee looks like something to avoid.

From https://vsee.com/messenger/

"Encrypted with military-grade 256-bit AES encryption"

There is no such thing as military grade encryption. The encryption either works (protects data for a reasonable long period of time against an well funded adversary) or an enthusiastic teenager with a Raspberry PI can crack.

256-bit AES encryption is a symmetrical encryption algorithm, sure. But these days is rarely the source of security issues, as quality code is available or implemented partially in hardware such as x86 AESNI instruction set, or ARM's Cryptographic extensions. It's all the other stuff dealing with keys, public key encryption, cryptographic hashing* and how they are all used together that causes problems.

The electronics equivalent of this would be announcing your military grade power-on indicator LED will light up when power is connected, so the rest of circuit in the product is completely issue free.

I cannot see any mention of forward secrecy. This is the feature which makes Signal's end to end encryption scheme more secure than anything before it.

Use Signal.

* Telegram's MTProto version 1.0 got this wrong, used a cryptographic hashing function (SHA1) nearing the end of it's useful life. This choice alone is reason enough not to recommend Telegram, even though it was later corrected in MTProto version 2.0 to SHA256.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 04:03:39 pm by RenThraysk »
 

Offline SVFeingold

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2021, 04:28:56 pm »

"Encrypted with military-grade 256-bit AES encryption"

There is no such thing as military grade encryption. The encryption either works (protects data for a reasonable long period of time against an well funded adversary) or an enthusiastic teenager with a Raspberry PI can crack.

This is standard marketing fluff. Pretty much every company does it. "Aerospace grade," "military grade." True, most people have no idea what those things mean (if anything). They just sound cool, so companies say it. I don't see how you take that to mean that it must not be reliable, unless there is some other info to that effect.

Try to take a moral stand against all sigh-inducing bullshit marketing language and you'll pretty much end up in a shack in the woods.
 

Offline RenThraysk

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2021, 05:10:30 pm »
This is standard marketing fluff. Pretty much every company does it. "Aerospace grade," "military grade." True, most people have no idea what those things mean (if anything). They just sound cool, so companies say it. I don't see how you take that to mean that it must not be reliable, unless there is some other info to that effect.

Try to take a moral stand against all sigh-inducing bullshit marketing language and you'll pretty much end up in a shack in the woods.

Signal doesn't make nonsense claims.

It's also quite important to point out it's bullshit, as there are ignorant politicians trying to decrease security based on the marketing language.

"Attorney General William P. Barr said on Tuesday that technology companies should stop using advanced encryption and other security measures..."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/23/us/politics/william-barr-encryption-security.html

"advanced encryption"
 

Offline duckduck

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2021, 07:34:03 pm »
Been using Signal since it came out. It was a bit bare bones for a while there but they have added a ton of new features in the past year or two. Love it.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2021, 07:36:54 pm »
Ok, they may use some marketing speak but VSee is also approved by the US Congress for use behind its firewalls, so its security can't be that bad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSee

Also, clearly documented Security and privacy statements, Signal's are more in the form of 'how do I know it's private' type articles.

https://vsee.com/hipaa
https://vsee.com/privacy

Signal may or may not be better, but it seems silly to totally write something off based on some marketing fluff about AES-256 being Military grade.

BTW, I did install Signal last night but wasn't keen on the UI.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 07:38:52 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline voltsandjolts

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2021, 09:00:22 pm »
I always find 'blind faith' a curious phenomenon. I often catch myself at it, without even noticing.
Why VSee? Cool website, nice jingle. Approved for use in Congress. Nine years ago.
Their website attacks Skye with some vigor about security vulnerabilities, yet I see no mention of their own, nor how quickly they fixed them.
Maybe they haven't had any since they started in 2008?

OTOH, here is Signal. Source code, issues, fixes and commits, all there for you or your qualified contractor to security assess.
Some find comfort in closed source code but really there is none.
https://github.com/signalapp
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2021, 09:37:26 pm »
Yep, you're absolutely right, blind faith (and familiarity) is a very big decision factor. VSee have some big customers - IBM, NASA etc. as well  having a core business of telemedicine where patient privacy is clearly essential.

In the absence of detailed cyrptographical knowledge, the next best thing seems to be to place some trust in the organisations that do. A company that is not owned by another with a potential conflict of interest (especially a social media one), and it being absolutely clear who pays the bills (where their money comes from) is another factor. conversations are end to end encrypted and don't pass through their server.

Yes, it's completely fair to call it blind faith, but I have no particular secrets that anyone would be interested in, other than not wishing to open myself up to information harvesting for marketing and other purposes. 'Good enough' seems fine. Particularly if it comes with a nice simple UI, is available on all platforms and has good video compression.

If I had more secrets then maybe I might be more concerned but 'good enough' is fine for me.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 09:44:59 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline RenThraysk

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2021, 09:50:02 pm »
Ok, they may use some marketing speak but VSee is also approved by the US Congress for use behind its firewalls, so its security can't be that bad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSee

Also, clearly documented Security and privacy statements, Signal's are more in the form of 'how do I know it's private' type articles.

https://vsee.com/hipaa
https://vsee.com/privacy

Signal may or may not be better, but it seems silly to totally write something off based on some marketing fluff about AES-256 being Military grade.

BTW, I did install Signal last night but wasn't keen on the UI.

Yes, I read them before started commenting. It clearly documented that the free messenger provides no assurances about the security of your data. The marketing nonsense was only thing, and the https://vsee.com/firewall page gave clues (STUN and TURN servers suggesting the WebRTC protocol which almost everyone else is using at this point) as how they are doing the video calls.

https://vsee.com/messenger/

Compare HIPAA Messenger Products section

Free Messenger column, No BAA.

"VSee offers the HIPAA-required Business Associate Agreement where VSee agrees to be responsible for keeping all patient information secure and to immediately report any breach of personal health information."
 

Offline DeanA

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2021, 04:38:57 am »
How about LINE app??? https://line.me/en-US/


Online HalcyonTopic starter

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2021, 04:44:06 am »
Signal seems to want a hell of a lot of permissions compared to VSee. Just saying.


P.S. Ah, yes, it does support iPhone / iPad / Mac

Did you stop to look at what those permissions were? They are pretty straight forward...

Don't want to use video calling? Don't enable camera permissions.
Don't want to use secure voice calling? Don't enable the microphone or phone permissions.

I see nothing wrong with any of them.

As for VSee, I literally have never heard of it until just now. It looks to be marketed towards doctors and health professionals, rather than a serious, unified, secure communications platform. Signal does it all (and then some) in one application, even plain old SMS. It's simple, lightweight, secure and it just works with nothing more than a phone number.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 04:47:12 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline steve30

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2021, 07:45:39 am »
I think I'll just stick to IRC.
 
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Online HalcyonTopic starter

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2021, 08:24:00 am »
I think I'll just stick to IRC.

I think we can safely exclude you from this conversation Steve, you still use a rotary phone ;-)
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2021, 12:52:05 am »
I prefer Telegram (has the live location sharing function) but Signal is okay too.
Regarding security you should never use an app messanger platform for sensible stuff.
We should all delete Whatsapp and stick with the others, I do not like when things get too popular.
A good crazy strategy could be to use two platforms in the same conversation, crazy.... but more secure.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 01:02:13 am by Zucca »
Can't know what you don't love. St. Augustine
Can't love what you don't know. Zucca
 

Offline SVFeingold

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2021, 01:05:16 am »
These are all nice thoughts. In reality the overwhelmingly vast majority of people don't care to this extent, and certainly aren't going to spend time debating the finer points of precisely which encrypted messenger service is technically superior based on the peer-review of their open-source code on Github, or which government agencies say what about them.

This is vaguely reminiscent of the Linux fanboys being certain it's the "year of Linux" and they're finally gonna take down MS and Apple. Then as soon as they say "BUT IT'S SO EASY, all you need to do is open a command-line and apt-get..." they lose 99.9% of the public. As they've done the last 20+ years. And will continue to do for the next 20.

The truth is people care to the extent it's easy to obtain and use them. The less investment required the better. Signal does well in this regard (especially with the recent endorsement from Elon). Facebook messenger is probably fine for most people. If you are transmitting truly sensitive data, as in actual state secrets, actually classified documents, etc. then you've probably already been briefed on exactly which services are acceptable and how much jailtime you'll get if you use any others.

No state actor cares about your cat pics. Or your nudes. Or how wasted Michelle got last weekend. It's like that XKCD. Nobody is gonna build a supercomputer to crack the 4096-bit encryption to your bank account. They're just going to hit you with a wrench until you tell them the password.

Which isn't to say nobody should care. They should. But all you folks sending a deluge of requests to your friends to "use this totally secure, totally obscure open source messenger, and it's so easy! Here's a step-by-step on how to sideload the APK onto your phone" are probably just going to end up with fewer friends. If there's an existing, widely used, widely supported messenger that it perfectly fine for everything but transmitting classified info or nuclear launch codes, it's probably good enough. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. It may be a fun hobby for you, it's not for the majority of people who actually need to use it in order to start making a majority of our comms secure.
 
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Offline andy3055

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2021, 05:07:41 am »
Well, Telegram is in the news now!
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2021, 07:32:20 am »
I don't know what news andy is referring to, but here in germany, any news regarding telegram is essentially bad news.
Noone talks about it's features or security, but every news piece talks about telegram being used by right wings, neonazis or conspiracy nutters.

I don't even want to suggest using Telegram anymore, since associations like this tend to stick and generally do not end well.
 

Online HalcyonTopic starter

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2021, 09:47:06 am »
Telegram is a child's toy compared to the likes of Signal (and far less popular in my experience).
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2021, 10:28:38 am »
Well, I just read on the news that they've downloaded Signal 8.8 Million times in the last week, a huge surge in their user base. Good.
 

Offline SVFeingold

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2021, 10:51:32 am »
I always find 'blind faith' a curious phenomenon. I often catch myself at it, without even noticing.

No modern society can function without "blind faith." When is the last time you did an chemical assay of your tap water? And I don't mean sending it to a lab. No no no, they can hardly be trusted. No, you must replicate all of their methods and instruments from scratch - or find an open-source peer reviewed equivalent - and do it yourself. You'd be a fool not to do it.

Likewise when you buy a car, do you just assume that the airbag and seat belts work? Oh sure, they worked in the crash tests some years ago. But that was a different car. How do you know that yours work. Do you do your own verification? Buy a few sample cars and test them yourself? Do you do a complete X-ray CT and electrical test of the relevant modules yourself? Do you proof-test your own seatbelts using your own homebrew tensile tester? No? Ridiculous.

And I know I didn't just see you take an Ibuprofen right from the bottle (god knows where it's been!) you just picked up from Walgreens. Better do a full analysis of each bottle. Otherwise you're just begging to take a big pill of pure Cobalt-60 without even knowing. I mean, sure it's unlikely. But how do you know?

And on and on. I'm not really picking on you specifically, so please don't take it that way. But this general vibe is present in pretty much any thread about infosec. And this is how those people sound when they talk about how ignorant the unwashed public is to use reliable, commonplace encrypted message services such as iMessage and Facebook.

We rely on "blind faith" on practically a minute-by-minute basis to enjoy our modern lives. Crypto nerds ignore this and focus on how ignorant everyone else is for not keeping up with the history and release notes of obscure platforms because...they're crypto nerds. Turn the same scrutiny back onto them onto any of the many areas in which they are not experts and they are just as demonstrably ignorant as anyone else. How many crypto folks personally do a full function test of every single IC in the laptop they're using? After all, those boards are made in China...they could easily have snuck a hardware backdoor in there. I'm guessing "zero." There's that blind faith again.

Don't get me wrong: it's a good thing that crypto nerds do this! I love watching Defcon talks, and I'm forever grateful that those men and women are out there hacking shit and probing for security weaknesses. The work they do keeps these systems robust, keeps companies (semi)honest, and eventually trickles out into broader society for the benefit of everyone. I wouldn't have it any other way.

All the same it helps to have some humility and not act like you're viewing the rest of society through museum glas; some weird specimens that are too ignorant to *snort* understand that VSee hasn't released any technical white papers in 8 years! You're one of us too buddy, we're on the same side of the glass. :)
 
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Offline voltsandjolts

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Re: Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2021, 11:20:35 am »
This is vaguely reminiscent of the Linux fanboys being certain it's the "year of Linux" and they're finally gonna take down MS and Apple.
Just to get the facts clear; here you are talking about desktop computing. Everywhere else (mobile, datacentre, supercomputing, web servers, nas boxes, routers, embedded os) linux rules the roost.

No modern society can function without "blind faith." ...<snip> ..TLDR
Blind faith is belief in the abscence of any evidence. If you choose to live that way you can, but in general life can be better if you make smarter, more informed choices. Of course, I don't mean analyse your water and all source code you use. But you can take advice from others (this forum included), evidence from several independent sources and make a more informed choice. The probablility of maker better choices is much higher that way. Of course it takes a little effort, so blind faith suits some people better.
 


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