Author Topic: Perpetual Motion  (Read 19421 times)

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Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2012, 01:30:30 am »
Psi - Look we are not talking about phenomena and theories that are at the cutting edge of particle physics. People who are actually taking part in such discussions tend to be employed by the likes of CERN and are not preoccupied with posting shitty pseudo-science youtube videos.

So far, all of these contraptions are built on physics that is easily attainable on a human scale and is well understood. And yet, those devices are supposed to be special somehow and draw on physical phenomena that is beyond our understanding.

The last time we succeeded to interact with physical phenomena (in some controlled fashion) that is beyond our full understanding required a machine with a price tag of 7.5 billion euros; manned by 2400 full time employees, 1500 part time staff, many of them backed with with a resumes, PhDs and engineering qualifications that is beyond my wildest dreams.

Forgive me if my mind is not particularly open in that respect.
 

Offline Things

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2012, 01:43:29 am »

So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency

Dunno where you pulled this from, permanent magnet generators can be a good 80% efficient.

What these nutjobs really need to be doing is finding new ways to make green energy devices more durable, such as better bearings. The typical service life of a wind turbine is around 20 years, which, in that time, they well and truly pay for themselves, however if you could tack a couple more years lifetime onto them, then we'd really have something going.

Power from the wind, sun, ocean, rivers, geothermal etc is all free after the initial investment costs. Extend the lifetimes of the machines and your operating costs are a heap lower too.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 01:47:12 am by Things »
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2012, 01:59:13 am »
Psi - Look we are not talking about phenomena and theories that are at the cutting edge of particle physics. People who are actually taking part in such discussions tend to be employed by the likes of CERN and are not preoccupied with posting shitty pseudo-science youtube videos.
Forgive me if my mind is not particularly open in that respect.

We are still discovering new things from common household items.
Look at the whole sticky-tape produces X-rays thing.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2012, 02:20:19 am »
It's not new physics that will rewrite textbooks, nor will it change our fundamental understanding of our world. Triboluminescence has been observed for centuries.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2012, 02:27:43 am »
It's not new physics that will rewrite textbooks, nor will it change our fundamental understanding of our world. Triboluminescence has been observed for centuries.

It doesn't have to be new physics, just something new that may have applications that could change the world.
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Offline FlyingBrickyard

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2012, 02:50:13 am »
So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency
Then build it and make lots of money out if it!!

Why is it that people proposing such contraptions were never successful at going to market?

Even putting all of that aside, what does it do?

So a ball goes around a track... BFD.  How are you going to get anything useful out of that, even if it were 100% efficient? (which it can't be).  Even if that were possible, how would it be adapted and applied into something useful without screwing up the delicate balance that allows it to "work"?  In what possible way could it scale into anything worthwhile?

This is where the reality of thermodynamics rears its head.  In short:

1.  You can't get ahead (i.e. get out more than went in).
2.  You can't even break even.

And I promise you for the video in question, that "pendulum in the base" wasn't.  It was some form of power source that was being depleted to keep the whole thing going.  The man is a charlatan at best - if we're being generous. 

He's built an interesting and rather nice piece of kinetic art, but has crossed the line from artist into fraud by attempting to pass it off as something it is not.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2012, 04:04:59 am »
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/art.htm

Scroll down to the deceptions of David Jones. Just the name struck me as funny.

My belief, the world is interesting enough. We don't need fantasy, conspiracies or any of that other crap. They just lowered a rover on to Mars with cables and flew a capsule like an airplane. Far more interesting than all this BS.

...mike
 

Online Simon

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Re: Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2012, 05:40:25 am »
So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency
Then build it and make lots of money out if it!!
Why is it that people proposing such contraptions were never successful at going to market?
I could make a cheap and unlimited source of energy however the government would go after me because it uses fission instead of fusion.
Pesky anti-nuclear peasants and big industry.
[/quote]

So you have found some unobtanium material that withstands the temperature ? Better let all these secrets out one at a time or we'll never recover from the shock ^-^
 

Offline Obi_Kwiet

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2012, 06:25:05 am »
Here's another :)

watch from 2:24



why did you want us to skip the beginning showing he is a nutter. There is a contradiction. They say it is 80-90% efficient and then say it has to be 101% efficient to be perpetual.


So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency

No it isn't. It's not an engine, it's just storing mechanical energy in a mechanical system. A proper, high efficiency flywheel would put this to shame. Combustion engines have to convert from chemical energy to mechanical energy, which is a pretty inefficient process.
 

Online Simon

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2012, 06:54:11 am »
oooh don't be too blunt with him, now he has to go and take all of those videos off youtube  ;)
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2012, 07:39:24 am »
The Earth or any other planet are not perpetual motion. The earth's orbit will slowly decay the energy loss is the slowing down of the spin, days are longer now than they were ten million years ago and they will get longer, there is also plasticity heating where the sun's gravity moves the earth crust just like the moon does and causes heat. All you can say is that the store of kinetic energy is exceedingly large and will take a long time to be used up.
 

Offline niky518

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2012, 08:24:45 am »
oooh don't be too blunt with him, now he has to go and take all of those videos off youtube  ;)

Calm down Simon! :P  I am not saying that this things in videos are revolutionary new technology that will change the world...

Only just want to hear opinions of others
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 08:29:37 am by niky518 »
 

Offline _Sin

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2012, 08:51:12 am »
Opinions are like arseholes - everyone's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

It's also pretty worthless to talk about opinions when the subject isn't really open to interpretation. The question is not "is this random youtube video demonstrating actual perpetual motion?" (the answer is always an emphatic "no" - no 'opinion' necessary) - the question can only be "what kind of fraud is being attempted?", and that's usually not a terribly interesting question as there are so many trivial ways in which it could be done.

As to the "perpetual motion" of the solar system (or other celestial bodies), as has been pointed out, while that may be on many orders of magnitude more time than we humans are used to, there is nothing perpetual about it. Look at our own moon - that's moving away from us at a rate of about 3-4cm per-year, the energy being bled-off by dragging our oceans around and creating our tides.
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Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2012, 08:54:50 am »
Yep, and there are other phenomena, such as tidal locking. Ever wondered why we always see our Moon from the same side, and why its rotation period perfectly matches its orbital period? Over aeons of time geological tidal effects between the Earth and the Moon transferred orbital momentum from Moon's body to its rotation, causing deceleration of its orbit and forced the rotation to become more synchronous.

IO is slightly larger than our Moon, and yet it is one of the most geologically active body in our solar system. Normally, such a small body would be cold and dead like our boring Moon, but instead IO experiences tidal heating due to Jupiter's gravity, spewing all sorts of interesting things onto its surface. Basically IO is an extreme example of the aforementioned process. It's quite amazing if you think about it. In a nutshell, the energy generated by gravitational interactions is thermally radiated away; i.e. you have this bizarre, slow, elaborate conversion of gravitational interplay into photons!

Saturn's satellite system is very weird. Those collection of moons undergo orbital resonance, creating the bands in Saturn's rings, and orbital periods with integer ratios. Again, all of this incurs loss of momentum within the participating bodies.

Oh and gravity waves could also decay orbits.
 

Online Simon

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Re: Perpetual Motion
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2012, 04:16:34 pm »
ok I was trying to make a loose comparison and dupe the op into being convinced that something like perpetual motion is not unheard of but it takes special circumstances.
 


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