Poll

What do you think about having designated "Expert" forum users?

I don't like it
126 (71.6%)
Maybe
26 (14.8%)
I like it
24 (13.6%)

Total Members Voted: 174

Author Topic: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?  (Read 51835 times)

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Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #200 on: February 17, 2022, 04:53:06 pm »
Hey, at least we don't have a way to buy "thanks" points.
Sure we do!  I'll thank all of your posts if you thank all of mine and we'll be the overachievers of the Thanks system.
 
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #201 on: February 17, 2022, 05:23:16 pm »

Sure we do!  I'll thank all of your posts if you thank all of mine and we'll be the overachievers of the Thanks system.

And I suspect you know that is exactly what happens on another forum, not to mention names.  Except, that forum now gives trophies.
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #202 on: February 17, 2022, 05:35:20 pm »
And I suspect you know that is exactly what happens on another forum, not to mention names.  Except, that forum now gives trophies.

I have no idea which forum you are talking about (maybe ?). But if I did, I imagine they would have categories as follows:

Quote
Messages
Helped 123
Reputation 456
Reaction score 789
Trophy points 1234
Activity points 5678

What exactly do those things mean, such as what determines the reputation, what is a reaction score, and activity points. What are trophy points ?
Would a beginner, even have a clue what those parameters mean ?

I wonder if it is aiming to get the facebook likes/dislikes crowd or something.

 

Offline Algoma

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #203 on: February 17, 2022, 05:53:25 pm »
"helpful" Reaction type emoji's that can be "awarded" to the headers of significant posts in a thread to highlight them. Basically see Reddit "awards" for reference, these can also become a source of financial support for the forum operations to give them more actual value.

 :horse: :-/O   :scared:
 
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Offline hans

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #204 on: February 17, 2022, 05:56:22 pm »
Having read the discussion of the last few pages.. don't know where to hook into. But my 2cts:

The "Thanks" system is analogous to the Facebook Like button. Stackexchange atleast has the downvote option. YouTube HAD the downvote option. I think an upvote only system is flawed by design.

Second, turning engineering advisory into some kind of democracy system is hard, or .. weird. If we want an expert assigned, how is that expert promoted or nominated? Is it based on popularity, amount of effort/activity or visibility? I've seen some people posting regurarly with good advice, but also admitting their limitations of knowledge. OTOH I've also seen some pretty though and relentless comments on this forum from time to time, especially when things start to get opinion based, so I would hardly be surprised if any of this will be based on fairness or equal treatment.. If that is of interest.

E.g. if a college undergrad needs to study a paper for class and can point out a mistake in the calculations to the professor.. Then that still is a mistake. And that mistake could cause a skyscraper to go down. In that case it's a good thing that there is a disinterest in the discussion.

I personally think all of these post counters, thanks, likes, ratios, badges, assigned expert, "Voted as helpful answer" is a race to the bottom: monkeys climbing the mountain and being the one on top. Obviously we're goofing around with the system in this thread, but I personally think that having a discussion on equal human and moral values is the best environment a forum can put forward.

For example, I'm very content that the moderation and administration of this forum doesn't go onto a power grab to make their point or try to "organize" the system to their liking. I've seen this happen quite often on other platforms, such as StackExchange, where they can start whining about referencing some external site (because it may go down in the future, rendering the post "useless").
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #205 on: February 17, 2022, 05:59:14 pm »
"helpful" Reaction type emoji's that can be "awarded" to the headers of significant posts in a thread to highlight them. Basically see Reddit "awards" for reference, these can also become a source of financial support for the forum operations to give them more actual value.

 :horse: :-/O   :scared:

To check my understanding. It means users of a forum (or similar), can pay money, which then is an additional/another income stream, for the forum/channel/entity. Which allows the user to buy, virtual coins, which they can then award to helpful members.
Hence you can't just go around handing out thanks clicks, just like candy. As they have to be bought.
But since they support a popular forum/channel (Youtube), I can understand why that would be an interesting idea.

https://www.reddit.com/coins
Quote
What are coins?
Coins are our virtual good, and you can use them to award exceptional posts or comments, giving them Silver, Gold, or Platinum. We'll be adding cool new ways to spend your coins in the future.

EDIT What worries me about the system I just described (virtual coins). Is forum members finances vary, e.g. a young electronics hobbyist, who has difficulty buying stuff at the moment. So I don't like the idea of any thanking/ranking/trophy system being connected to financially purchasable tokens.

Looking at the top of this forum:
Quote
A Free & Open Forum For Electronics Enthusiasts & Professionals

Wouldn't then apply, in my opinion. Even the suggested 'expert' system, in my view, means the Open and Free bits would need to be removed or amended.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 06:11:45 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #206 on: February 17, 2022, 06:13:35 pm »
What about combining Thanks with Agreed, instead? (As in Thank/Agree, instead of just Thank, and similarly in the statistics.)

It seems to match the current use of Thanks, especially across topics and sub-forums.  It might defuse some of the social gaming aspects ("score"), too.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #207 on: February 17, 2022, 06:21:23 pm »

Sure we do!  I'll thank all of your posts if you thank all of mine and we'll be the overachievers of the Thanks system.

And I suspect you know that is exactly what happens on another forum, not to mention names.  Except, that forum now gives trophies.

And I haven't been back since the day I discovered the change.  I'm far too old to get 'trophies'.  Hell, I've been retired for 18 years and my only claim to 'expertism' is that I live comfortably despite not having a commute.  Silicon Gulch was good while it lasted.  I don't miss it a bit!

 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #208 on: February 17, 2022, 06:24:55 pm »
Only somewhat related to the "expert" tag, but more about helping beginners:

On occasion I jump in to help where there is a fairly simple question.  Sometimes I make the first reply.  Sometimes I nail it, or at least get so close that nobody else cares to add anything (even if I ask for additional comments or opinions).  I'm not looking for someone to compliment me on my amazing use of Ohm's law, and I certainly hope to be corrected if I get it wrong, but I think it would be helpful for the beginner to see a confirmation.  For all they know, I'm just some random idiot.
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #209 on: February 17, 2022, 06:34:53 pm »
Only somewhat related to the "expert" tag, but more about helping beginners:

On occasion I jump in to help where there is a fairly simple question.  Sometimes I make the first reply.  Sometimes I nail it, or at least get so close that nobody else cares to add anything (even if I ask for additional comments or opinions).  I'm not looking for someone to compliment me on my amazing use of Ohm's law, and I certainly hope to be corrected if I get it wrong, but I think it would be helpful for the beginner to see a confirmation.  For all they know, I'm just some random idiot.
This is exactly the situation when I wish there was an Agree button, instead of a Thanks one.

Then again, the Thanks button itself does have it uses, just different.  Which is why I do not think the two would "collide" if combined into the same.  It just means that the reader needs to consider the post itself, and which aspect of the Thanks/Agreed applies.  But its very presence is useful for new members, as indication confirming the post somehow; that somehow being quantifiable only by reading the post and examining the posting history of those who thanked/agreed with it.

I must say, having ones post somehow "end" the thread with no response or acknowledgement feels nasty.  It happens to me often, and I never know whether the thread came to a natural end, or if others just got fed up with my verbosity, and chose not to engage any further.  I sometimes do avoid posting for exactly that reason, especially in the Beginner forum; I do not want to be the only one giving advice.
 
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Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #210 on: February 17, 2022, 06:48:33 pm »
If the vote is for an expert tag, then why are the "Thanked XXX times" suddenly under the user info? I vote no on this because it offers no substance as to the proper use of "Thank User" button. As mentioned above, there are many reasons that replies get thanked, some simply thank replies because they replied.

But, as usual, the members have morphed this question into something else. So if there is a button or trophy to be given to forum members, such as number of times thanked, then I will propose a different viewpoint:

How about another button that only the OP can see/utilize called "This is the answer that I was looking for" or some such thing, I invite others to name it better. If the OP presses this button that only the OP can see, the thread ends, but the OP has the option to reply when this button is pressed to explain that this is the answer they were looking for.

If this is a "merit" badge for those interested in merit badges, then the total "merits" can optionally be displayed on the forum member who was tagged.

 :-/O  :popcorn:

EDIT: Just for reference, I voted "I don't like it".
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 06:53:35 pm by tpowell1830 »
PEACE===>T
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #211 on: February 17, 2022, 06:56:43 pm »
If you are going to have a Thanks button there should be the obvious No-Thanks button to make the choice binary.  Voting should be compulsory and limited to the OP.  It's their question and only their opinion matters and it is required.

That kind of levels the playing field - if a poster has given too many No-Thanks, don't bother with their question, you'll only diminish your reputation.  Lots of posts, not many Thanks.  Like my account...

Leaving a reply with Thanks or <no comment> seems unfair to the respondents.

ETA:  Maybe add Thanks Given to Thanks Received in the side bar.  There must be something the numbers guys can make of posts, Thanks Given and Thanks Received.  Maybe add Threads Started...  We could do an entire AI project identifying the true experts!  Or at least the most popular members...



« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 07:01:30 pm by rstofer »
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #212 on: February 17, 2022, 07:01:21 pm »
I must say, having ones post somehow "end" the thread with no response or acknowledgement feels nasty.  It happens to me often, and I never know whether the thread came to a natural end, or if others just got fed up with my verbosity, and chose not to engage any further.  I sometimes do avoid posting for exactly that reason, especially in the Beginner forum; I do not want to be the only one giving advice.

You just need to try to work with your self-esteem. I know, it's easier said than done! Anyone who does not like your verbosity is free to ignore you. The rest of us - we like it so much that we are like "Yes!! Nominal has posted again!!". Trust me, even if no one replies anything, the post has been appreciated by many. If you keep the discussion going, even with the risk of being "the last one", the chances of someone else posting again are higher, than if you choose to be silent.

If you are the only one giving advice, sure it feels a bit awkward, but... In the end, the responsibility of participating is on the shoulders of others. If no one else wants to say anything, it's their problem, not yours.

The highest thanks/posts ratio is by those who write something
* easily agreeable by most
* yet not meaningless; with actual points / relevance to the topic
* distilled, 1-2 interesting details
* not too long or detailed,

so they appeal to most groups at least in one way. Cerebus hits the nail.

Those who write very long, detailed posts, like Tim or yourself or even myself sometimes (although I'm not claiming I'm in the same league; I could come closer if I doubled-tripled the effort and time spent in writing), appeal to those who like reading long posts, and have time to do that; that just limits the audience!

Yet, long, detailed posts are exactly what we need, not many write them, because doing it well requires so much time and effort, as you very well know. But because reading them also requires time and effort, it's just inevitable they are not for everyone. The result is mediocre thanks/posts ratio which does not reflect the high quality of the posts.
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #213 on: February 17, 2022, 07:01:37 pm »
I think this idea was deemed to be bad halfway though the page 1. If this was stackoverflow, the discussion would be over :).
Alex
 
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #214 on: February 17, 2022, 07:05:32 pm »
If you are going to have a Thanks button there should be the obvious No-Thanks button to make the choice binary.  Voting should be compulsory and limited to the OP.  It's their question and only their opinion matters and it is required.

Very strong disagree on this.

The best thing about this forum is, this is not a question-answer service like Stack Overflow. X-Y problems are commonplace; some of the best and most factual answers irritate many posters, because they are not what they expect or want to hear. Yet, these answers are what they need to hear. Even more importantly, what others with similar problem need to hear!

Hence, rating can't be left for those who started the discussion. They can not, and do not represent everyone else with the same or similar question.
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #215 on: February 17, 2022, 07:07:55 pm »
I think this idea was deemed to be bad halfway though the page 1. If this was stackoverflow, the discussion would be over :).

This answer is a duplicate of an answer from another thread (posted 6.5 years ago). Also, not enough people have accepted this answer/post as being correct enough. Suggest deletion of this post, as not relevant enough.

tl;dr
Alternatives have downsides as well as upsides.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #216 on: February 17, 2022, 07:23:28 pm »
If the vote is for an expert tag, then why are the "Thanked XXX times" suddenly under the user info? I vote no on this because it offers no substance as to the proper use of "Thank User" button. As mentioned above, there are many reasons that replies get thanked, some simply thank replies because they replied.

But, as usual, the members have morphed this question into something else. So if there is a button or trophy to be given to forum members, such as number of times thanked, then I will propose a different viewpoint:

How about another button that only the OP can see/utilize called "This is the answer that I was looking for" or some such thing, I invite others to name it better. If the OP presses this button that only the OP can see, the thread ends, but the OP has the option to reply when this button is pressed to explain that this is the answer they were looking for.

If this is a "merit" badge for those interested in merit badges, then the total "merits" can optionally be displayed on the forum member who was tagged.

 :-/O  :popcorn:

EDIT: Just for reference, I voted "I don't like it".

Ending the thread could be useful but the most fun threads start after the original question is answered and the discussion goes off the rails and into the weeds.

Here is one of Simon's  queries from several years ago.  There is a lot of interesting information about the various math solvers as well as the question itself.  It went off the rails fairly early:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/mesh-analysis/

Then there is Charlotte's epic thread on purchasing a scope.  She buys a Siglent SDS1202X-E around Reply 150 and then it gets interesting as she wanders through the User Manual trying every feature.  I had never use a scope to integrate a signal...  Tautech's contributions are very helpful!

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-an-oscilloscope-recommended-for-a-woman-passionate-about-electronics/

These are both memorable threads because they got interesting after they went off the rails.  I don't think the Thanks system can adequately address the utility of either of these threads particularly if it is used to close threads.

OTOH, I wouldn't mind seeing a Zombie system installed that closes forever threads older than <some duration>.  Posting to a discussion that ended 5 years ago seems dubious.  It's dead, leave it that way!  I'm thinking weeks, not years.


« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 07:33:52 pm by rstofer »
 
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #217 on: February 17, 2022, 07:24:38 pm »
If you are going to have a Thanks button there should be the obvious No-Thanks button to make the choice binary.  Voting should be compulsory and limited to the OP.  It's their question and only their opinion matters and it is required.

That kind of levels the playing field - if a poster has given too many No-Thanks, don't bother with their question, you'll only diminish your reputation.  Lots of posts, not many Thanks.  Like my account...
First, do no harm.  I cannot agree to any negative, including no thanks, feedback.  Negative and various varieties of like/dislike was tried at ETO years ago.  It was a monumental failure.  I don't know if the varieties of like are still there.  Zero function whether divided by 1 or 5 is still zero.

The exception is the immediate "thank you" that is not added to a cumulative score.  A thank you for any help or effort to help is always appropriate. The "binary" opposite almost never is except in a civil debate.  Can you imagine going to someone's house for dinner and not thanking the host and hostess regardless of how bad it was?

 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #218 on: February 17, 2022, 07:32:13 pm »
If you are going to have a Thanks button there should be the obvious No-Thanks button to make the choice binary.  Voting should be compulsory and limited to the OP.  It's their question and only their opinion matters and it is required.

Very strong disagree on this.

The best thing about this forum is, this is not a question-answer service like Stack Overflow. X-Y problems are commonplace; some of the best and most factual answers irritate many posters, because they are not what they expect or want to hear. Yet, these answers are what they need to hear. Even more importantly, what others with similar problem need to hear!

Hence, rating can't be left for those who started the discussion. They can not, and do not represent everyone else with the same or similar question.

Yes, I was being facetious again...

I don't like any part of the proposed solutions.  The downsides for all of them far outweigh the upsides.  People just want to have fun, not compete for trophies.  Do we give Participation Awards?  Sounds like it!
 
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #219 on: February 17, 2022, 07:37:58 pm »
We need a facetious emoji.  I thought that might be the case, but I didn't want to say that, if you weren't.
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #220 on: February 17, 2022, 07:40:23 pm »
Already mentioned by me.

But it would be nice to have user selectable options, via the forum account settings, and similar. Such as:
  • OPT-IN to Thanking System
  • Disable Thanking system for this user
  • Show Thanks totals on all posts
  • Hide total thanks from everyone except actual user
  • Show Expert Titles, Badges and Trophies
  • Hide and Opt out of all Badges and Trophies
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #221 on: February 17, 2022, 07:46:06 pm »
I think this idea was deemed to be bad halfway though the page 1. If this was stackoverflow, the discussion would be over :).

That made me laugh.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline emece67

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #222 on: February 17, 2022, 07:51:24 pm »
.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 05:14:11 pm by emece67 »
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #223 on: February 17, 2022, 07:57:43 pm »
I must say, having ones post somehow "end" the thread with no response or acknowledgement feels nasty.  It happens to me often, and I never know whether the thread came to a natural end, or if others just got fed up with my verbosity, and chose not to engage any further.  I sometimes do avoid posting for exactly that reason, especially in the Beginner forum; I do not want to be the only one giving advice.

You just need to try to work with your self-esteem. I know, it's easier said than done! Anyone who does not like your verbosity is free to ignore you. The rest of us - we like it so much that we are like "Yes!! Nominal has posted again!!". Trust me, even if no one replies anything, the post has been appreciated by many. If you keep the discussion going, even with the risk of being "the last one", the chances of someone else posting again are higher, than if you choose to be silent.

If you are the only one giving advice, sure it feels a bit awkward, but... In the end, the responsibility of participating is on the shoulders of others. If no one else wants to say anything, it's their problem, not yours.

The highest thanks/posts ratio is by those who write something
* easily agreeable by most
* yet not meaningless; with actual points / relevance to the topic
* distilled, 1-2 interesting details
* not too long or detailed,

so they appeal to most groups at least in one way. Cerebus hits the nail.

Those who write very long, detailed posts, like Tim or yourself or even myself sometimes (although I'm not claiming I'm in the same league; I could come closer if I doubled-tripled the effort and time spent in writing), appeal to those who like reading long posts, and have time to do that; that just limits the audience!

Yet, long, detailed posts are exactly what we need, not many write them, because doing it well requires so much time and effort, as you very well know. But because reading them also requires time and effort, it's just inevitable they are not for everyone. The result is mediocre thanks/posts ratio which does not reflect the high quality of the posts.

I edit myself. I often initially end up writing something much longer, but I go back, try and put myself in the reader's seat, see if it makes sense, then restructure, clarify, remove redundancies, as necessary. Obviously not if it's just a conversational post.

I've had the luxury of having a sub-editor regularly do it for me, and I've seen how much a sub-editor can improve something; so I try to be my own sub-editor, but it's a poor second place to a having genuine different pair of eyes read something before 'publishing'.
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #224 on: February 17, 2022, 07:59:12 pm »
I must say, having ones post somehow "end" the thread with no response or acknowledgement feels nasty.  It happens to me often, and I never know whether the thread came to a natural end, or if others just got fed up with my verbosity, and chose not to engage any further.  I sometimes do avoid posting for exactly that reason, especially in the Beginner forum; I do not want to be the only one giving advice.
You just need to try to work with your self-esteem.
No, that's not the issue.  You see, if I wanted to be the only one dispensing advice, I'd do that at my own web page; I even have a domain ready for that, if the fancy strikes me.  And while I definitely am no expert, I have lots and lots of experience in various things I'm very proud of and willing to discuss.
While I do have some self-esteem issues, mostly my issues are with communication.  As you know, I'm never shy of providing my own opinion or viewpoint.

The issue is that a single viewpoint is just a single viewpoint.  When both questions and answers have quite a lot of guesses and "noise" involved – well, questions mostly lack necessary information, rather than have too much information or useless information in them –, each answer includes a set of undisclosed assumptions, which may or may not be correct.  (I sometimes answer questions based on an informed guess – based on past observations of similar questions – and they suprisingly often hit the asker's target, but equally often weird out other potential answerers as to "what made you think they asked about that?)

Consider a collegial coffee break or beer after work, where someone describes a problem they're having with something, and one of the group makes a suggestion on how to proceed or solve the issue.  Then, consider the three cases of how the situation continues:
  • The group simply disbands, people looking at their empty cups or glasses, and either go get a refill or back to their work.
     
  • Other members of the group make assent noises or nods, look at their empty cups or glasses, and either go get a refill or back to their work.
     
  • Someone (or more than one) says "hey, that's a good idea; thanks for suggesting that, I'll have to rememer it myself too".  Then, everyone looks at their empty cups or glasses, and either go get a refill or back to their work.
The first one is what happens now.  You may not believe this, but I'm actually quite emphatic, and whenever I detect that situation in real life, end up chatting with the asker, just to avoid them having to experience that silence.  On the net, it is harder to do.

The second is what I'd like to have: an Agree button.  Not only does it solve the problem Dave is asking whether the forum should have designated "Expert" forum users –– helping new members and basically everyone evaluate suggestions made, without trying to change the posting culture so that people would post much more "I agree, that's what I'd suggest too" posts.  It is also very easy, a single click.

The third is the existing "Thanks" option, from my own perspective.  Because of the perception of a pure "Thank you" in different cultures, different members treat it differently.  Some use it as a pure acknowledgement –– say, like looking at whoever is talking now, showing that what they are saying is being considered and thought of -–; some like myself use it somewhat as a mix of the second and third cases above, depending on the subject; some use it as a bookmark; and some think it is such a strong endorsement that it should be used sparingly, or it will lose its value, lowering the signal-to-noise ratio unacceptably.

Unfortunately, it looks like the forum software does not currently support or have any easy way to implement a separate Agree button that would work exactly like Thanks, but be separate.  So my favourite suggestion is unfortunately out.

Therefore, the "best" option, in my opinion and experience with technical forums, would be to combine the Thanks button with Agree/Assent/Concur.
While the change would be just to the text shown on the page (on the button and in statistics), it might be a clever solution to the underlying problem Dave is considering adding "Expert" user classification for.  For members, it just means that if they read a thread, and they see a solution they themselves would suggest if it had not already been suggested, or if they agree with the suggestion and have some experience with the problem or similar problems, they are encouraged to click on the Thanks/Agreed button. 

On the Help page –– right next to the Home button on the link bar ––, this could be described explicitly; as well as on the pages intended for new members to read, and on the Forum rules etc.

In a real sense, this would be the social engineering option to solve an underlying problem for which a technical solution has been suggested.
 


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