Poll

What do you think about having designated "Expert" forum users?

I don't like it
126 (71.6%)
Maybe
26 (14.8%)
I like it
24 (13.6%)

Total Members Voted: 174

Author Topic: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?  (Read 51821 times)

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Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #225 on: February 17, 2022, 08:01:54 pm »
We need a facetious emoji.  I thought that might be the case, but I didn't want to say that, if you weren't.

I don't do 'social media'.  I have no idea how to use emojis even if I were so inclined.  'Luddite' applies here...
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #226 on: February 18, 2022, 01:24:30 am »



You're getting me worried, about the changes which are happening here.
I'm absolutely NOT a facebook fan kind of person.

It happened to another forum. I won't mention its name here. But they went from a nice/neat open plan, forum, to a horrible messy, point scoring, expert only sectioned, massive eye hurting, mess-up.
I almost have to squint my eyes, when ever I see it, and I just ignore the silly/crazy points schemes, multi-faceted likes (many types selectable on there), and one or more sections is for EXPERT replies only. They also added up/down voting things.
But I don't mind, there are still many places available, around the internet, to find out about things.
I think they had a change of management, which was probably why things changed. They were probably more concerned about maximizing views, advertising and hence profitability.

If I understand things correctly, the users in general, hated the new schemes, and said so. But the admin teams, seemed to ignore all the complaints, and just did whatever they wanted to.
On the one hand it is their forum, they can do what they like. But on the other, the best users probably disappeared, and the less useful members remained. But maybe the forum was getting less and less popular anyway, as I suppose times change.

I think I'd read things on that forum less and less, anyway, a long while, before the changes. But I was amazed at how bad a forum can be messed up, with a change of management and various changes they make.

As I see it. It is like the modern freemium games. With paid micro-transactions. Whereby once good games, with sensible one-off game purchase pricing, became expensive horrible freemium ones.

tl;dr
Not all changes are good. It's not my forum, but a thread asking what we think, seems to have been created. So I'll leave my opinions.
On reflection, I think I'm being significantly too pessimistic, in my outlook. I.e. Making a mountain out of a molehill.   :palm:
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 01:59:38 am by MK14 »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #227 on: February 18, 2022, 02:00:53 am »
I can see arguments on both sides of the fence, but I'm swaying more towards the "don't like it" option for these reasons:

  • Some experts (not all) will simply use the tag to stroke their own egos or perhaps attempt to use it as a subtle tool to make themselves appear more knowledgeable in other fields, even when they aren't (kind of like not correcting someone when they mistakenly assume you have a certain position/authority/credentials etc...).
  • Some experts are introverts or don't like to be labelled, so to those who don't know them, they might appear less "authoritative".
  • It creates classes of people which will inevitably lead to bullying.
  • Some people might take offence if they don't "make the grade.
  • Determining who is an expert shouldn't be up to the admins/moderators.
  • Likewise if you let users class themselves as experts, it de-values the meaning as non-experts will simply use the tag to feed their own egos or misrepresent themselves.
  • We don't wear a badge to social events that says "expert", why do it here?
  • What problem/deficiency are we attempting to solve by implementing this?

I'd much prefer a system where others can up or down-vote user comments to produce some kind of aggregate "score", but even that is not without its problems and needs careful consideration. For example, on the Australian internet forum Whirlpool, every user has an "aura" which is basically a popularity vote. Regardless if your content is true or factual, if you piss the wrong people off, they will do everything in their power to down-vote users in order to artificially impact their aura. I saw this all the time as a moderator there before I left. It just became a poisonous forum to be part of.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 02:05:03 am by Halcyon »
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #228 on: February 18, 2022, 02:02:06 am »
Yes, questions posed in the "Go Ask The Expert" sections on that other board could only be answered by the appointed expert on the topic.  That left all of the burden on one person and the various forums could be stagnant for years.  Truly a waste of pixels.

I started thinking about divisiveness (again) and how one possible result of this topic just adds another example of 'them versus us' and all of its side effects.  There's enough divisiveness going around without adding it to a laid-back family oriented forum.  There are some very talented people hanging out here and most seem quite generous with their time.

Who should be the most comfortable here?  The folks that have been here a while and are just kickin' back or the person who showed up on Tuesday and didn't like the replies?

 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #229 on: February 18, 2022, 02:07:17 am »
I can see arguments on both sides of the fence, but I'm swaying more towards the "don't like it" option for these reasons:

  • Some experts (not all) will simply use the tag to stroke their own egos or perhaps attempt to use it as a subtle tool to make themsevles appear more knowledgeable in other fields, even when they aren't (kind of like not correcting someone when they mistakenly assume you have a certain position/authority/credentials etc...).
  • Some experts are introverts or don't like to be labelled, so to those who don't know them, they might appear less "authoritative".
  • It creates classes of people which will inevitably lead to bullying.
  • Some people might take offence if they don't "make the grade.
  • Determining who is an expert shouldn't be up to the admins/moderators.
  • Likewise if you let users class themselves as experts, it de-values the meaning as non-experts will simply use the tag to feed their own egos or misrepresent themselves.
  • We don't wear a badge to social events that says "expert", why do it here?
  • What problem/deficiency are we attempting to solve by implementing this?

I'd much prefer a system where others can up or down-vote user comment to produce some kind of aggregate "score", but even that is not without its problems. For example, on the Australian internet forum Whirlpool, every user has an "aura" which is basically a popularity vote. Regardless if your content is true or factual, if you piss the wrong people off, they will do everything in their power to down-vote users in order to artificially impact their aura. I saw this all the time as a moderator there before I left. It just became a poisonous forum to be part of.

That about sums it up!  But I'm also against the up/down-voting.  How do you judge the quality of the person voting.  Maybe they don't like the reply because it doesn't fit their preconceived idea of how a problem should be solved.  Their solution won't work, they get told it won't work and then they down-vote the reply.

You last point is the most important (in my view).  What problem is being solved and, more important, why is it being solved at all?

« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 02:08:52 am by rstofer »
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #230 on: February 18, 2022, 02:10:47 am »
I left StackOverflow and StackExchange because of experts who were more interested in their social score "reputation" than being factual/useful.  It is typical for high-scoring members to leave their inaccurate or misleading answer to stand as long as it garners positive score, and simply delete it without admitting any error if it looks like it might go negative.  They never admit to making an error, because that might negatively affect their "reputation".  (I know about a dozen members of each site that are the complete opposite, and like me, don't like the social gaming, but really enjoy trying to help with difficult questions, and learners to learn in an effective manner.  The majority plays the score game.)

I don't like voting "up" or "down".  The number of members who agree or disagree does not matter to me, and because it only indicates popularity (of the question and answer).  I do not believe the numerical count is actually useful in any way.  At best, it is a hint.  At worst, it may often mislead.

I'd also like to get rid of that new Thanked: counter under my country flags; it weirds me out.

What matters, is what kind of posts those who give advice, or who signal their agreement on some advice, have made in the recent past.

Note: I do not think that who agrees in itself is important or even relevant, because I believe argument from authority is a fallacy.  It's just that the most reliable and functional way to assess the weight of someones opinion is to examine their other statements at around the same time; here, their most recent posts across topics.  (Having the Thanked/Agreed name list in each post directly link to the most recent posts of that member would therefore be better than just linking to that member's profile page.)

Of course, it is even better if we can simply read the reasoning and experience behind that opinion instead, because those can be objectively evaluated for applicability in other situations, which is why I far prefer those reasons and experience over the actual opinions.  But that makes for much longer posts...
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #231 on: February 18, 2022, 02:40:57 am »
I know other forums that went the other direction and removed even post counts from the forum display (you could still check it through their profile if you wanted) as it was uncorrelated to anything important in discussions. Should be interesting to see if publicizing a users thanked count adds any value.

Counts of things in a forum/community with diverse activities/groups is a poor measure, as discussed above with the example tea thread.
 
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #232 on: February 18, 2022, 03:16:16 am »
I'm pretty sure some of the thanks I have are due to me stating I'd had enough of the debate I was in and was going to bed ...  :-DD
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
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Offline eti

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #233 on: February 18, 2022, 05:55:00 am »
An "ex" is a has-been, and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.

No, Dave, it smacks of arrogance and lofty aspirations.  Bad move. Don't. Do. It.
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #234 on: February 18, 2022, 06:36:17 am »
An "ex" is a has-been, and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.


I recall it being X is an unknown quantity.

But yeah.  ;D
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #235 on: February 18, 2022, 07:58:20 am »
Not sure about the display of thanks so prominently.

As for the original proposition - the more I think about it, the more I am against it.  I cannot see it being capable of achieving the aspiration sought and there are multiple risks to what is currently working.
 
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Offline emece67

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #236 on: February 18, 2022, 08:31:59 am »
.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 05:14:53 pm by emece67 »
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #237 on: February 18, 2022, 09:39:04 am »
Halcyon's response is accurate. I even thanked it.

As for the thanks under my moniker, I'd like to amend my .sig to include "Ignore the thanks count; too many were given by woodz". I can't because I'm not allowed to have a longer .sig
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #238 on: February 18, 2022, 09:55:56 am »
I'd much prefer a system where others can up or down-vote user comments to produce some kind of aggregate "score", but even that is not without its problems and needs careful consideration.

Awhile back, the administrator stated that this forum did not have an archival function.  That was in response to a suggestion for some sort of logging of seminal contributions.  I had never seen that stated as such for a forum and thought it was not only accurate but quite perceptive.  Voting up or down comments like on Stack seems to imply that function.  That is, why do it when a thread is active and ample opportunity exists to refute or support statements?

Although you point out an obvious problem for such voting, I think you minimize the effect of such a system.  It would not only be a risk, it would destroy this forum as it currently exists.

PS: Sorry to be late with a response.  We had flooding and power outages last night.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #239 on: February 18, 2022, 09:57:08 am »
As for the thanks under my moniker, I'd like to amend my .sig to include "Ignore the thanks count; too many were given by woodz". I can't because I'm not allowed to have a longer .sig
You still have some space in the "personal text" which you don't seem to be using.
Failing that, you could even put it in your gender ;)
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #240 on: February 18, 2022, 11:29:34 am »
Not sure about the display of thanks so prominently.

At the time of the above post, I was on an "almost there" 2998.  Now it's 3001.

Feeling a little better about it now...   ;D
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #241 on: February 18, 2022, 11:42:43 am »
Suggestion:
What if we removed (at least visibly), the TOTAL thanks, at least from all visible places and/or the forum server entirely. But kept its display on individual posts.

Because the total doesn't really make a lot of sense. There might be a real big wig technical expert, who makes some of the best and technically accurate/helpful posts, on this forum. But who only pops on and makes the odd post or so, every few months. So only has perhaps 22 posts and 5 thanks, in total.

Alternatively, there could be someone with 11,565 thanks, who mainly just frequents the Tea thread ( see here:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/  ). Then, gets a huge number of thanks, with little effort.

But who might not make the best of posts (they could, but they haven't got time to), in the technical parts of the forum. Compared to the very best of the best, posters on this forum.
(Sorry Tea thread people. I'm just trying to explain a point, rather than upset some people).

tl;dr
Consider leaving ability to thank posts, but remove all ability to see thank totals, as it is somewhat meaningless and/or too addicting, in an arguably bad way (***Facebook effect (Addiction and/or Dopamine gains), if you understand what I mean).
Alternatively: Give each user an option, which allows them to OPT-OUT of the thanks total capabilities/display for this forum server.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 11:50:23 am by MK14 »
 
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Offline m k

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #242 on: February 18, 2022, 12:37:56 pm »
I'd much prefer a system where others can up or down-vote

User's down vote count must fade.

Can you check how votes are spreading among voters?
Like post count, flag and so on.

My guess is that in low education level environment a status is more important and more abused.
Similarly with answers for newcomer questioneer questions.

I think the worst case for the community is when newcomer is disappointing after excitement.
That newcomer is very likely lost.

My prediction is that with current state Stack Exchange would never have been.

Newcomers are not the community, the core is the community.
Yes, the core will fade without newcomers but good mood of the community will disappear in a blink without off topic capability, even faster if it is actively blocked.
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #243 on: February 18, 2022, 03:44:24 pm »
Downvoting / thumbs down is cancer.

Heck, I tend to be quite harsh sometimes and hate wrong information. Yet the last thing I ever want is thumbs down feature of any kind. It will be just abused 95% of the time, downvoted by people who don't know what they are talking about and don't like those who do. It will almost never be based on the actual research on the subject, but emotional instincts instead, because it's so damn easy and quick to click.

Besides, even when some reply is utter crap to the point of needing downvoting, I would be tempted to click that button and then job done, that would give the dopamine for "correcting wrong information" without ever having to do the hard work yourself.

And it's exactly this hard work, showing how and why others are wrong, and provide the correct information, which is so valuable not only for the OP, but the whole community.
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #244 on: February 18, 2022, 04:09:39 pm »
Downvoting / thumbs down

If I remember correctly. In the same way, the thanks system here, is sometimes used between mutual friends and/or very well liked posters. I've seen fights break out, which just go down hill fast and get worse and worse, just because of down-voting/dislike functionality.

E.g. A poster, for quite genuine reasons gives a dislike to someone else's post, somewhere. They then correspondingly downvote a post, by the person who downvoted them, for no good reason at all. Then the other fellow, starts downvoting ALL the posts, the other guy makes. Later a number of well established friends of the other fellow, then ALL give the original guy, lot of negatives/dislikes, for any post they make. Others can then join in. Until total mayhem breaks out, and someone from the moderation team has to step in and start giving people, free of charge holiday/rest periods (I guess you know what I mean).

Disclaimer: Part of the reason my recollection of the event(s) I described is so weak/sketchy (and/or the mod team had already cleared up the resultant mess, by deleting information, by the time I got to it. But fragments of what had happened, still remained, if I remember correctly). Is because I thought the whole thing was such complete and utter nonsense, It further motivated me to 'move' to other places on the internet. Why bother with forums that have suddenly had crazy ideas on how to run a forum.

tl;dr
It seemed to cause terrible in fighting.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 04:11:29 pm by MK14 »
 
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Online DavidAlfa

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #245 on: February 18, 2022, 04:13:28 pm »
I think the "thanks" button is actually sufficient, lets you know your post was useful for somebody, and that's all you need.

Usually there're multiple approaches to overcome a problem, it's ok to discuss the the pros and the cons of each method, without anyone pointing to his shiny expert medal.
The expert tag on wrong hands would quickly escalate to the typical stone age ego fight, "me know more, me have expert tag, you dumb, me better" and quickly ruin the forum ambient, but also could cause PM nightmares to those "experts"...
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #246 on: February 18, 2022, 04:16:54 pm »
Yes, "thank you" button is already being abused so that the correct and useful answer gets little thanks, but some troublemakers who never technically contribute themselves but only nag to those who do, "thank you" each other's nagging messages. Their game is to make the contributor angry and derail the thread into meaningless bickering. Their greatest success story is when they manage to manipulate a contributor into saying something ugly, then click "report to moderator", manipulate Simon into giving a warning to the contributor (which is quite easy, as Simon has no time or interest of reading pages of worthless bickering). But they usually cannot pull this off, it's like their ultimate goal. I have witnessed this succeeding once or twice.

But to put it in perspective, this phenomenon is so tiny, especially on this forum. I think I haven't seen it at all for over a year now! Being gamed this way has been the only single occasion when I seriously considered leaving this forum behind. Glad that I didn't, it was an isolated incident.

Dislike button or similar is just so much more powerful tool for this purpose that I would expect it becoming detrimental to the moral of those who do contribute. We are humans with emotions, too.

Negativity must be used sparingly, and the best you can do is to couple it to contributing something. Having to write means, you have to at least give some reasons.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 04:22:40 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #247 on: February 18, 2022, 04:29:52 pm »
Yes, "thank you" button is already being abused so that the correct and useful answer gets little thanks, but some troublemakers who never technically contribute themselves but only nag to those who do, "thank you" each other's nagging messages. Their game is to make the contributor angry and derail the thread into meaningless bickering. Their greatest success story is when they manage to manipulate a contributor into saying something ugly, then click "report to moderator", manipulate Simon into giving a warning to the contributor (which is quite easy, as Simon has no time or interest of reading pages of worthless bickering). But they usually cannot pull this off, it's like their ultimate goal. I have witnessed this succeeding once or twice.

But to put it in perspective, this phenomenon is so tiny, especially on this forum. I think I haven't seen it at all for over a year now! Being gamed this way has been the only single occasion when I seriously considered leaving this forum behind. Glad that I didn't, it was an isolated incident.

Dislike button or similar is just so much more powerful tool for this purpose that I would expect it becoming detrimental to the moral of those who do contribute. We are humans with emotions, too.

Negativity must be used sparingly, and the best you can do is to couple it to contributing something. Having to write means, you have to at least give some reasons.

I'm an engineer, of course I lack social skills.  But the very first down-vote would be my very last.  I don't deal well with rejection.

I don't care if people disagree with me, reasonable people can disagree.  But down-voting is personal and insulting.
 
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #248 on: February 18, 2022, 04:51:10 pm »
@rstofer
That very well matches my experience with the Stack sites :D
My first question was essentially iognored, must have been to specialised, my second question got an answer, and actually a couple of upvotes, my third question was downvoted to hell.
I have not logged into the site since then. It's admittedly sometimes useful for looking for answers, but i have absolutely no wish to contribute anymore.

Enabling downvotes will also create a nightmare for the moderators: People *will* complain. People *will* abuse such a system. And moderators *need* to deal with that.
 

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #249 on: February 18, 2022, 05:01:39 pm »
Yes, "thank you" button is already being abused so that the correct and useful answer gets little thanks, but some troublemakers who never technically contribute themselves but only nag to those who do, "thank you" each other's nagging messages. Their game is to make the contributor angry and derail the thread into meaningless bickering. Their greatest success story is when they manage to manipulate a contributor into saying something ugly, then click "report to moderator", manipulate Simon into giving a warning to the contributor (which is quite easy, as Simon has no time or interest of reading pages of worthless bickering). But they usually cannot pull this off, it's like their ultimate goal. I have witnessed this succeeding once or twice.

But to put it in perspective, this phenomenon is so tiny, especially on this forum. I think I haven't seen it at all for over a year now! Being gamed this way has been the only single occasion when I seriously considered leaving this forum behind. Glad that I didn't, it was an isolated incident.
Yeah, I've have seen my fair share of baiting as well. But I guess this forum has run out of people that allow themselves to take things personally or allow them to be lead into circular discussions. Not a good thing though because some knowledgeble contributors went away.
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