Poll

What do you think about having designated "Expert" forum users?

I don't like it
126 (71.6%)
Maybe
26 (14.8%)
I like it
24 (13.6%)

Total Members Voted: 174

Author Topic: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?  (Read 51815 times)

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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #250 on: February 18, 2022, 05:04:18 pm »
I don't deal well with rejection.

Me and my ego can accept very well receiving this:

"You are stupid and wrong, you said xxx but really it's yyy, read here why and how..."

ESPECIALLY if it is true, and verifiable. If it's putting words in my mouth, then I can at least say so: "I didn't say that, don't play games with me..."

This is already harder to swallow:

"You are stupid and wrong!"

But at least I can reply to it that you are stupid, too.

The worst thing is some hit-and-run automation which requires just a button press to nuke me down.

Generally, my observation is that engineers "lacking social skills" is codename for engineers lacking social manipulation skills. Most engineers I have worked with are really honest and emotional people deep down. This in understandable, psychopaths and sociopaths try to get into position of managing engineers to their advantage.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 05:06:03 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #251 on: February 18, 2022, 05:20:59 pm »
I don't care if people disagree with me, reasonable people can disagree.  But down-voting is personal and insulting.
And, unless the vote system intends to represent popularity and nothing else, it is counterproductive.

Consider this: What makes disagreements useful?

The answer is, discussing the reasons for the disagreements, so that each position can be compared in objective terms to the current case at hand.  Hell, we have over two millenia of recorded experience and thoughts on this process.

What does downvoting do?  It expresses the disagreement in a way that completely avoids the reasons for the disagreements.

Consider my earlier coffee break among coworkers/colleagues, discussing some problem, and someone suggests an approach.
If one of the participants then says "I disagree", and immediately walks off, how do you interpret the situation?
I think the disagreer is a selfish asshole, because they provided no information, just cast doubt on the discussion.  Conflict and strife, not help.
At minimum, when someone disagrees, they should state the reason why.  In a technical environment, the disagreement alone is purely detrimental.  Only if it is accompanied with reasoning, can it be evaluated.

A simple disagreement without stating any reasons behind it, in my opinion, is dirty social gaming; an appeal for argument from authority; sowing tension and strife, without any constructive elements.  Do you want to be a social site, or a technical site where discussions are intended to be constructive and informative?

I like it when people disagree with me, and state their reasons.  No, I love it.  That way I can learn, and better understand things from a new viewpoint.  I definitely appreciate a good argument, even if it turns my understanding upside-down and shows just how wrong I was.  (Yes, that stings a bit at first, nobody likes being shown wrong, but when one gets over that, the gains in understanding massively overwhelm the initial sting.  It is well worth it, in my opinion.)

Thus, when 'downvotes' appear on something I believe to be correct, I end up having to do research to verify what it might be about.  If I start ignoring the downvotes, I'll be cultivating exactly the attitude I hate.  But, without any additional information, it is like being told some code has a bug or a device has a fault –– and absolutely no information on what that bug or fault could be, or how to reproduce it –– and that one should fix it.  HOW?

My vote for downvoting is thus FUCK NO.

Generally, my observation is that engineers "lacking social skills" is codename for engineers lacking social manipulation skills. Most engineers I have worked with are really honest and emotional people deep down. This in understandable, psychopaths and sociopaths try to get into position of managing engineers to their advantage.
Exactly.  I even have anecdotal "proof" of this, of sorts: for a few years, I was the bridge between artists and the technological tools.  When team members are honest and direct, and trust each others domains of knowledge and experience, you get really good results.  Communication isn't an issue, as long as everyone has the courage to be honest and direct, so no social manipulation is involved.  (They trusted me, because I told them consistently that nothing was impossible, and instead described the needed work and effort to achieve the result, then suggested alternative options drastically reducing the time and effort needed, perhaps gaining additional useful features, with minimal artistic restrictions.  They loved the choices and the control it gave them.)

It is when you get a sociopath in the mix, who sees others just as tools or fuel to use to achieve their own goals or worse, as necessary hindrances on their way to fame and/or riches, that the "lack of social skills" claims appear.  (Well, also when people are not comfortable with being direct and honest, and instead prefer language that insinuates instead of claims.. but that sort of language is rarely effective or productive in team-internal communications.  At that time, it was accepted that Finns tend to be direct in matters of work and academic pursuits, so it was acceptable to require direct and honest talk; but this has drastically changed within the last decade or so.)

A particular example is an award-winning sociopathic "artist"/project leader I had the misfortune to work with, that once sent an e-mail to her team of university students working on a project, admonishing them to "try to be real human beings, not just students".  I guess it is easier, too, when you consider the local culture inferior to your own, like she definitely did.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 05:25:17 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #252 on: February 18, 2022, 05:45:21 pm »
A particular example is an award-winning sociopathic "artist"/project leader I had the misfortune to work with, that once sent an e-mail to her team of university students working on a project, admonishing them to "try to be real human beings, not just students".  I guess it is easier, too, when you consider the local culture inferior to your own, like she definitely did.

Assassination by email - you just have to hate it!  There used to be a workgroup leader who, whenever she had a problem, copied everybody in the chain of command clear to the president of the organization.  Our group lost before we even knew there was a problem.  Perhaps the problem could be easily repaired but perhaps it now took a LONG time to get around to it.  First we needed to STUDY the problem, and so forth...

A simple stop by my office and we could have solved the problem immediately.  I truly hate interoffice email!  If I owned a company, it wouldn't even have an internal email system.  Deal with the problems personally.

I also hated our Rohm phone system which would notify callers if their voice mail had been heard.  That way the caller would know when you heard their terribly important message.  I made a habit of reviewing the caller information before listening and some messages were never heard.  I could delete them without listening!  Sometimes you just know somebody is going to jam you up just by the fact that they request a receipt.

I am so happy to be retired!

 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #253 on: February 18, 2022, 06:01:37 pm »
Yeah, one thing with email is that you can never assume it's a private exchange, even when you intended it to be. The other person can forward it to others, put them in copy when replying, including hidden copy so you don't even know about it...

So using email at the workplace? Do it ONLY if you actually want what you write to be shared to everyone. If not, have a person to person conversation. (Of course they can always repeat what you said to others, but this has nowhere near the same impact as the actual exchange being copied verbatim.)
 

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #254 on: February 18, 2022, 06:04:52 pm »
If you elect experts by vote you have to make sure the vote is accurate and inclusive and people don't vote twice, or more.
Using "thanks" would definitely change the meaning of that "thanked" number, making it political.

If you appoint experts you get a "Deep State" situation where the person appointed is in a position of authority with little chance of recall.

Either way you would be establishing a hierarchy that is counter to the proper functioning of a "Forum" where any thoughts can be expressed. and all opinions are heard by all interested.

Anyway "Forum" comes from the Latin name for the place where public speaking for any purpose was tolerated.

Do you want to be "Egalitarian" or "Hierarchical" ????
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #255 on: February 18, 2022, 06:11:24 pm »
Our group lost before we even knew there was a problem.
Downvotes remind me of an occurrence when I was a young whippersnapper doing IT support at a University Dept. a quarter of a century ago.

One of the teachers had noticed a problem on one of the computers in a classroom (PPC Macs).  Instead of letting me know, they decided that a post-it note on the classroom door would suffice.  It read: "Nominal Animal, one of the computers has a problem.  Please fix."

To reiterate, downvotes are NOT USEFUL, unless they intend to gauge popularity and nothing but popularity.  And I for one am not interested in popularity contests.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #256 on: February 18, 2022, 06:49:08 pm »
Nominal Animal:  I like what you added after the Thanked counter!
Very clever!
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #257 on: February 18, 2022, 07:03:27 pm »
Downvotes remind me of an occurrence when I was a young whippersnapper doing IT support at a University Dept. a quarter of a century ago.

One of the teachers had noticed a problem on one of the computers in a classroom (PPC Macs).  Instead of letting me know, they decided that a post-it note on the classroom door would suffice.  It read: "Nominal Animal, one of the computers has a problem.  Please fix."

So, what Post-It note did you leave under it for Prof. Dunderheid?  >:D
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #258 on: February 18, 2022, 07:30:18 pm »
Downvotes remind me of an occurrence when I was a young whippersnapper doing IT support at a University Dept. a quarter of a century ago.

One of the teachers had noticed a problem on one of the computers in a classroom (PPC Macs).  Instead of letting me know, they decided that a post-it note on the classroom door would suffice.  It read: "Nominal Animal, one of the computers has a problem.  Please fix."

So, what Post-It note did you leave under it for Prof. Dunderheid?  >:D



Normal answer would be:



 ;D
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 07:34:05 pm by RoGeorge »
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #259 on: February 18, 2022, 07:33:18 pm »


Are you sure that's not Arch Linux's new advertising picture ?

Edit: To be same as copied posts edit(s)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 08:28:24 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #260 on: February 18, 2022, 08:56:19 pm »
Downvotes remind me of an occurrence when I was a young whippersnapper doing IT support at a University Dept. a quarter of a century ago.

One of the teachers had noticed a problem on one of the computers in a classroom (PPC Macs).  Instead of letting me know, they decided that a post-it note on the classroom door would suffice.  It read: "Nominal Animal, one of the computers has a problem.  Please fix."

So, what Post-It note did you leave under it for Prof. Dunderheid?  >:D
I was so weirded out, none.  Fortunately, I'm so easy to read in person, that when I explained what I had done, I do believe they understood that for me to be effective and make their work easier at all, they should spend at least minimal effort in describing the exact problem, and at least stick it on my door instead of some other arbitrary door in the building.

The head of the department hated me, and refused my request for a modest budget for replacement keyboards and mice, and instead demanded I go to her directly for every single purchase first.  That lead to staff getting fed up with my long replacement times, and when their keyboard or mice had issues, started to just swap them with ones in the classroom, because after all, they were only for students, and they were Paid Staff...  But I was to blame, of course, for the several day delays and non-working equipment in the classroom.

That sort of treatment for a couple of years leaves its scars even on the strongest of egos, I believe.  At least I had a perfect model of what kind of boss never to be or become myself..

But, please, do note how these personal experiences are analogous to technical discussions on the net, and what to avoid here on EEVBlog.  I'm very serious with the Agree proposal, and that having the numerical statistics (Thanks: counter, and discussed Up/Down voting counters) visible on all posts is definitely detrimental to the forum.

(Addendum: I actually implemented online course feedback forms in 1998, with the results in a CSV format that opened in e.g. Excel fine with defaults for easy processing.  Most of the lecturers objected to its use, and instead demanded the use of paper forms, because they didn't want to have to learn to use Excel.  Yes, several of the lecturers/teachers did have PhDs, and most had at least Masters.  I used PHP for the forms and local flat file storage on a server I maintained myself, and the forms worked fine across Windows/Linux/Macs, as I implemented automagic form charset detection for MacRoman/ISO 8859-1/15/Win cp1252 AKA Western European.  I did that for free while working as the IT support person for the entire dept, and all I got for that was nasty looks and snide remarks and objections from the staff, no attaboy's even... Teaches me right, eh?)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 09:02:29 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #261 on: February 18, 2022, 09:31:04 pm »
"Agree" does not cut it either. If i ask a question and someone answers it or gives a solution to the problem, what is I will be Agreeing to? Using "Agree" would not make sense .  I would want to Thank the person, not Agree.
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Offline MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #262 on: February 18, 2022, 09:37:30 pm »
"Agree" does not cut it either. If i ask a question and someone answers it or gives a solution to the problem, what is I will be Agreeing to? Using "Agree" would not make sense .  I would want to Thank the person, not Agree.

I think the idea is that we either have a COMBINED thank/agree button (i.e. just rename 'thank' to be 'Thanks/Agree'), or have two buttons, one for thanks and one for agreeing. Please see Nominal Animals posts for more accurate details.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 09:39:16 pm by MK14 »
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #263 on: February 18, 2022, 09:42:02 pm »
Life was better when we just posted +1
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #264 on: February 18, 2022, 10:22:44 pm »
"Agree" does not cut it either. If i ask a question and someone answers it or gives a solution to the problem, what is I will be Agreeing to? Using "Agree" would not make sense .  I would want to Thank the person, not Agree.
True, but consider this if Thank/Agree was combined into a single button:

If you are the asker, then clicking it on an answer obviously emphasizes the Thanks aspect.

If you are neither the asker nor the answerer, clicking on the answer emphasizes the Agree aspect.

The two are orthogonal.  The count (number of thanks/agrees) on any specific question does not matter, but it matters what those who have thanked/agreed have recently posted.  If it is the asker, then it is some variant of "Thanks, I believe this is useful".  If it is someone else, then it is some variant from "Agreed, this is what I too would have suggested" to "Hey thanks, I think this will be useful for me too".  To find out the value of such a click on a particular post, you check the recent posts of those who have clicked it for that particular post, to see what kind of stuff they normally post, and how much value that gratitude/agreement has in the context of that particular post.

Having Agree and Thanks separate, but otherwise functionally the same (and getting rid of the Thanked: counter in ones posts), would be even better, but not technically available right now as far as I know.



For example, if I went to the TEA thread, and started Thanking/Agreeing with posts, anyone checking out my posting history can see that I don't actually have any "proper" test equipment; even my "oscilloscopes" are a DSO138 kit (1 Msps, 200 kHz bandwidth, ±50 Vpp) and an Analog Discovery 2 (100 Msps, 10 MHz, ±25 Vpp).  Numerically, the weight of my Thanks/Agreed there is basically zero.

Now, on the C programming forum, there the situation is completely different, and the weight of my opinion to you is easy to assess from my past posts and associated discussion threads.

In every situation I can think of, the difference between Thanks and Agreed is either obvious, or irrelevant.

Life was better when we just posted +1
Exactly!  The total number of such posts (in response to some post or question) is irrelevant; but the fact that a specific member chose to do so, is informative.  The relevance and applicability of that information is not trivially visible in the member profile, and one has to read their recent/relevant posts if unfamiliar with their output, but that is the nature of information exchange: each statement and claim must be examined in the relevant context.  No shortcuts.
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #265 on: February 18, 2022, 10:26:02 pm »
Just a theoretical, not that I want it, but what about something like this:



Where the "disagrees" are not tracked in any way outside of that post.


Life was better when we just posted +1

It does clog up the forum, IMO the number of people quoting page long posts has now drastically reduced.
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Offline magic

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #266 on: February 18, 2022, 10:33:00 pm »
Where the "disagrees" are not tracked in any way outside of that post.
Wrong. I will be counting them and posting monthly statistics for everyone to see.
 :-DD
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #267 on: February 18, 2022, 10:55:34 pm »
Life was better when we just posted +1

There's some truth in that.

As Groucho Marx put it, "I wouldn't want to join a club that would have me as a member".

Fundamentally this whole discussion is about a non-problem that doesn't need to be solved!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #268 on: February 18, 2022, 11:12:31 pm »
Sometimes  an expert can be the wrong person to explain things to a beginner.

The thing I’ve often seen, when you are an expert, someone asks a question and you give a reply that makes perfect sense to you, but leaves the question asker totally baffled.

Whereas if someone with a few months/years experience, still very   much an amateur, reads the question, they may remember how they struggled comprehending the same thing and be able to more easily explain to the beginner in a way the beginner understands.


Edit: just read MK14s post 191, their hypothetical question says the same thing, but worded in a much better way
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 11:19:36 pm by HobGoblyn »
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #269 on: February 18, 2022, 11:22:19 pm »
Just a theoretical, not that I want it, but what about something like this:
What is the purported value of such indication of disagreement?

Earlier, I showed practical examples of why thanks/agreed is useful, but not in numerical form, only when you can check the thankers/agree'ers contemporary posts.  (Which means that I seriously believe it would be best if the names linked to the recent posts of that member.)

Disagreement has negative value, if the reasons for the disagreement are not listed.  (And you're not measuring popularity.)

Voting up and down works, if you want to measure popularity.  If you want to measure anything else, it does not actually work; it eventually devolves into a popularity contest, as shown in other (technical) forums that implement such.  And because humans are social animals, that fosters social gaming, which detracts from the technical discussions.  For examples, see StackOverflow and StackExchange network.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #270 on: February 18, 2022, 11:30:00 pm »
Life was better when we just posted +1

There's some truth in that.

As Groucho Marx put it, "I wouldn't want to join a club that would have me as a member".

Fundamentally this whole discussion is about a non-problem that doesn't need to be solved!

Groucho also said:
"You can leave in a taxi.
If you can't get a taxi, you can leave in a huff.
If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and a huff."

So, not an infallible guide to life...
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #271 on: February 18, 2022, 11:31:42 pm »
What about combining Thanks with Agreed, instead? (As in Thank/Agree, instead of just Thank, and similarly in the statistics.)

It seems to match the current use of Thanks, especially across topics and sub-forums.  It might defuse some of the social gaming aspects ("score"), too.

For me, I tend to use the Thanks out of politeness if someone responds to a question I asked, if  a post I’m reading has  been helpful,  if I’ve read a random post that I’ve found informative,  or if I agree with the poster.

So really Thanks can mean many things,

 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #272 on: February 18, 2022, 11:34:02 pm »
What is the purported value of such indication of disagreement?

Value being, if you see a post that has 10 disagreements and no agreements, then likely the information is not accurate and can be ignored.

Of course, its not a common occurrence, but it could apply to trolls or "unintentional" trolls and mostly in the beginners section.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #273 on: February 18, 2022, 11:45:25 pm »
What is the purported value of such indication of disagreement?

Value being, if you see a post that has 10 disagreements and no agreements, then likely the information is not accurate and can be ignored.

Of course, its not a common occurrence, but it could apply to trolls or "unintentional" trolls and mostly in the beginners section.

And that concept is completely defeated by people that thank every post in a thread, including those that are telling them they are an idiot. Yes, there are such posters here, and they are one reason for my "personal statement" underneath the "thanks" count on the left.

All such metrics can and will be gamed.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #274 on: February 18, 2022, 11:59:11 pm »
And that concept is completely defeated by people that thank every post in a thread, including those that are telling them they are an idiot. Yes, there are such posters here, and they are one reason for my "personal statement" underneath the "thanks" count on the left.

I don't disagree with your personal statement, the context is a singular post, not a total count.
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