Poll

What do you think about having designated "Expert" forum users?

I don't like it
126 (71.6%)
Maybe
26 (14.8%)
I like it
24 (13.6%)

Total Members Voted: 174

Author Topic: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?  (Read 51906 times)

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Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2022, 05:28:00 am »
I would tend to avoid it.  I was heavily involved in a related system at a large corporation.  All of the social issues mentioned above and many more regularly and prominently occurred.  While the system had positive aspects administering it required a great deal of effort (and provided more opportunities for abuse).  I suspect the admin istraters here already have plenty to do
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2022, 05:28:04 am »
I should point out another thing we found in the early Linux forums is that if you do present yourself as a aficionado of a topic, you better be prepared for dealing with the direct messaging from the frustrated.

iratus parum formica
 

Offline Algoma

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2022, 05:39:27 am »
Perhaps a user selectable profile tag that adds a line to their Contributor status, to indicate their general preferred area of skill. First tag is unlocked with Regular Contributor Status.

Receiving a specified number of THANKS allows unlocking additional profile tags, or other unique contributor status to indicate their helpful community involvement.. Let users set their own contributor status, a unique perk unlocked through involvement and helpfulness.

Edit: Such feature is already basically available as Personal Text in the user profile.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 02:25:57 pm by Algoma »
 

Offline Kasper

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2022, 06:14:07 am »
Sounds like a lot of work and drama for the mods and negligable benefit.  Why are you asking for extra work? I hope everything is alright.

If you want to improve the 'thanks' system currently in use, it'd be nice to add the ability to thank from my phone.  I don't see it in the list of post actions.

Auto subscribe could also bring some more activity if that's what you're after.  I sometimes forget to check the box and miss the follow up.

As far as helping the new members figure out who to listen to, that's a tough one.  Some times everyone is right but they differ in complexity.  Some people like over-engineering everything and sharing as much knowledge as possible. Others like efficiency and solving problems as fast as possible. 

Some users want quick answers, others want details.  When someone is new, the complex answers risk scaring them off.  Quick solutions might leave them wanting more but they can always ask more questions.

If you really want to make more work for yourself, maybe some way for users to cast separate votes on posts for accuracy, thuroughness, and efficiency could help people decide which post to follow.  Risks cluttering things up though.  Another option would be to encourage OPs to enter their desired complexity.  They could say if they want a quick fix or a free master class.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2022, 06:24:21 am »
All such regalia just diminish the value of this forum, which is free flowing natural conversations.
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2022, 07:01:06 am »
It's not a bad idea, but much of the crux lies in who gets to decide who's expert.

I'm not sure it matters if you're only labelled an expert in a single field or not. I'd say that if you've rode the Dunning-Kruger rollercoaster once, you're probably able to refrain yourself from dispensing advise from Mt. Stupid the next time around...
 
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Online Circlotron

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2022, 07:02:45 am »
How about instead of expert, professional. That is to say, someone who actually works every day in a particular discipline vs someone who plays around at home. Not that that's an infallible guide to competence of course.
 

Online fourfathom

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2022, 07:14:21 am »
How about instead of expert, professional. That is to say, someone who actually works every day in a particular discipline vs someone who plays around at home. Not that that's an infallible guide to competence of course.

If you have to have a rating, you could do better than "professional".  Take me, for example.  I used to work every day as an EE, but have been retired for over 20 years (I retired quite early).  So now I play around at home.  I'm still better at it than some currently-employed engineers.

Again, I vote against the "expert" ranking.  It's unnecessary and likely to cause problems.
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Offline bill_c

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2022, 07:20:10 am »
I don't like it.  But if you feel you must, maybe give "greybeard badges" for specific areas of competence.  Only those who are expert like, good at explaining detail, and good at keeping it on topic, are worthy of such badge.  And better yet, only show the badges in the "newbies" sections.
To a newbie, the explaining and keeping on topic parts are more important than being a certified expert in xyz, as long as the info is correct 99% of the time.  I see many cases where a simple question has N pages of replies, N-0.5 of those pages are debating the 1%.  While technically that 1% can be super important in some cases and its good to know that it sometimes matters, a newbie will be confused with all the debate.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2022, 07:28:20 am »
I like the idea of it, however i am unsure of the actual implementation.

There has to be some way of determining what user gets a tag, so either the moderation team hands them out or the community has to vote someone into it.

Then there is the tenancy for some users to put a disproportionate amount of value on virtual internet points and might treat these tags as achievements. For example the popular IM platform Discord at one point introduced applications for bot developer status where they would get access to the bot API. The approved accounts would also get a bot developer badge on there user profile. The result of this is that the Discord support team got swarmed with bot developer applications from people who never intended to actually use the bot API but just wanted the shiny new badge visible on there user profile. As a result Discord stopped giving the badges while left with a dilemma what to do with the already given out badges. People who have the badge would be upset if they take them away, on the other hand letting them keep the badge would make the badge even more valuable as it is no longer possible to get this badge. Some people even sell discord accounts with rare special usernames or badges. People care a lot about there appearance on the internet.

To be honest i am not even sure what tag i should have if this was implemented. I am a pretty knowledgeable long time forum user, but i couldn't pin down any particular area where i am really really good at. I have done a lot with analog, digital, programing etc.. but at what point is someone deemed an expert.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2022, 08:54:38 am »
I don't understand what is wrong with the existing Thanked User system here. The first one to answer with the nearest solution is marked by consensus.
It's used a bit but I guess not often enough to be really useful. No one looks every beginner thread and gives a rate unlike say StackExchange.
Maybe it's just not possible on a chat forum based system to solve this, it's just the wrong platform to even try? Horses for courses so to speak. Stack Exchange will always do it way better?
The problem may remain, not every thread will get an answer from a designated expert and then :-//

I'm not on SE but it is my understanding that their continue to feed their "experts" more and more badges and internet points to keep that carrot dangling in front of them :D
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2022, 09:12:39 am »
I hang out on a non-technical forum where members can give other members up-votes or down-votes.  I think I have only up-votes there (because that's the kind of person I am!) but I still don't like it.  When politics or other opinions run hot the votes end up showing who is "in the club" and who is out.  Perhaps on this engineering forum this wouldn't be as much of a problem, but in any case I don't think the "expert" status is needed.  This is a public-access forum, anybody asking questions here should know that, and from what I've seen any "wrong" information gets corrected (or at least well-discussed) pretty quickly.

Way back we trialed a rating system of some sort here (thumbs up/down was it?), but IIRC it was abused with people just voting down people they didn't like. I think we did a poll and the majorty voted to remove it in favour of a simple Thanks system.

The majority of those who responded is still a miniscule proportion of forum members. Most polls I've observed here are unrepresentative due to the self selecting nature of the respondents.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2022, 09:15:59 am »
Maybe I misunderstand but I thought that was what the moderators were for nominated to a board/subject of their expertise.

Ha Ha. The moderators are here to sort the chaff from other chaff.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2022, 09:18:39 am »

I think it's an interesting idea in principle.
It's possible in the SMF forum software to have additional categories that where members can be allocated into groups which shows up under their username, just like we currently have for Frequent Contributor, Supporter etc.

(..)
Anyway, thoughts please...


stackoverflow/stackexchange  forum(s) does that with an alternative approach which IMHO functions very well when searching  answers for particular recurrent issues...

The FORUM RATES ANSWERS  .... instead of particular egos...
answers are voted and achieves a "mark" which otherwise function as a very good directive...

It should be  approximately the same thing where users with a high number of collected marks are obviously rated better....

better than egos.
2 cents.
Paul
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 02:23:19 pm by PKTKS »
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2022, 09:36:09 am »
Fair, right/correct identification of Experts and proper implementation won't be possible although it's an admirable pursuit.

Another point to consider is marking members as Experts will flood their inbox with requests for help, something that for the good of the forum should only happen on the forum !
How an Expert might manage such an influx of pleas for help is of course their own business however also consider this has the potential to have them leave or be less active on the forum.

Sure there are massively tall poppies in their chosen fields here there are also some that post rarely that are certainly world leading experts in their fields. Each year we gain more but until they become very well known or you engage with them privately you'd have absolutely no idea of their technical ability.
Some are retired or near to and desire to pass on their knowledge yet others like Tim (T3sl4co1l), so young yet so knowledgeable go to great lengths in his posts providing detailed discussion to explore and instigate deep thought.

My list would present a good number but T3sl4co1l would be #1 for his contributions to other members.
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Offline wilfred

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2022, 09:40:25 am »
I would have considered members such as Mikeselectricstuff, free_electron and Hamster_nz to give consistently well considered answers on a variety of topics. To me they are quite expert. One way to pick the "experts" is to note their lack of participation in the frequent forum bun-fights. And I'm quite sure others exist in good numbers who participate in discussions in topics of less interest to me.

It's not hard to pick who is worth listening to after a while. No-one needs to be labeled.
 
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Offline JohanH

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2022, 10:13:10 am »
I don't think this is fair.

I'm an EE in my paid job and specialist in a certain area. I'm not paid to post on this forum. I'm just here for my hobby, which is another area that I can't consider myself a professional expert in.

If you bring up titles and professions here, it sounds like this is becoming some sort of professional support forum. What would the companies that you work for think about that? Feels awkward to me. If you are self-employed (or unemployed or retired) it is probably different.

Then it is another thing that the Internet has no lack of armchair-experts...
 
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2022, 10:53:35 am »
Essentially, people could nominate and/or vote on who are known "Experts" in a particular field and give them an "Expert" designator tag. e.g. Analog Expert, Acoustics Expert etc.
This could potentially help newbies or generally just anyone asking a question to perhaps be more confident in a technical answer if it comes from a designated "Expert" in that field. Help weed out the weat from the chaff so to speak.

Please don't do that.  In my experience, it has ruined every forum that has adopted such practices.  Look at All About Circuits (AAC).  It used to have no rep in distinct contrast to ElectroTech Online (ETO), which not only had rep, but the amount of rep received was proportional to the amount of rep the giver had.  Anyone remember ETO's green and red squares?

New ownership at AAC decided to add rep.  It went downhill from there in terms of quality.  At AAC, it's become a comedy contest.  Those with the most "likes" (excepting moderators) post YT videos, FB cartoons, and are just plain silly.  The number of likes has absolutely nothing to do with content.  AAC even gives trophies .  Yuck.  One of the moderators, who was obviously aware of the demise of content and had experience at ETO, suggested  adding a rule that only the original poster could give rep for responses in a thread.  That might have helped, but was rejected.  That was years ago.

ETO eventually stopped that original nonsense, which had become more destructive than helpful.  There even seemed to be competitions to give a new poster the most red squares.  After new ownership woke up, it doesn't even put rep ratings under a user's name in posts.  Still, most "positive" ratings are for sarcasm, insults, and comedy.

Stackexchange has something similar to what is being suggested here where merit is judged by certain anointed members.  That system has resulted in some very good and contributory members leaving.  As an unintended consequence, the up/down grading of responses can even be hilarious.  How will the judges be appointed?  What difference will it make?  Most important, will the risk of damage offset the advantages?

EDAboard has/had a very complex system of rep.  Moderators had a lot of control.  In practice, it was no better than any of the others and allowed moderators to go unbridled.  Edaboard is now owned by the same group that owns ETO (or at least was).  It seems also to have gone downhill. 

Personally, I like the status quo here (EEVBlog).  You have the ability to thank someone without filling up space with an otherwise empty response.  Thanks are not emphasized.  That is, you have to go to a posters profile to see them.  I do like "thank" rather than "like."  Most of all, please do not allow negative rep.  That is more destructive than email fights.

EDIT: In no way is that comment meant to reflect on the moderators involved in those forums.  I won't mention any names, but each of those forums has some superb moderators who always try to help posters.  It is testament to their patience that they continue to work as hard as they do. 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 11:01:30 am by jpanhalt »
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2022, 11:14:54 am »
A forum user brought this up and I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

Essentially, people could nominate and/or vote on who are known "Experts" in a particular field and give them an "Expert" designator tag. e.g. Analog Expert, Acoustics Expert etc.
...

- I find that one, nominating experts, one of the worsts ideas.

- Any explanation that starts with a filling/emphasizing word, like "Essentially", to me is an alarm indicator, but maybe I'm too paranoiac and here is not the a case of mind conditioning.

- The most important counter argument is that science does not work by voting.  Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think.  Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.



Not everything can be voted upon.  Voting is about the power of many taking over everything else, including taking over correctness or truth simply by numbers, and completely disconnected from reality.  There is an old saying explaining why that is bad:  "A million flies can't be wrong, eat shit."

The propaganda must be terrifyingly intense these days if people are now starting to think we should vote for everything, including scientific truth, or even engineering truth.

This is to me an example of brainwashing, just like any cult is completely mind-condition its followers into believing even the most absurd claims.  Keep in mind brainwashing can be intended or unintended.  No matter how it came to be, nobody is immune to it, including myself.  This is not about being gullible.  Even the smartest people can be changed.

Oh, and all the above is not about you Dave, I'm a big admirer of your work and achievements.  It's about our world today.  Internet made the repetition possible very cheaply.  We, as humans, were not ready for such a sudden non stop exposure to connectivity.

It's about an issue happening as we speak, IMO.  I don't know if it's happening by itself or as a driven attack, but to me it is clear that it's destroying the western world and it's values.

------------------------

This is how I think it works, told as a tale about training neural networks, where the neural network is the human brain.  Our minds keeps changing/learning/adapting to whatever we are exposed, whether we want it or not.  This feature of continuous learning (that can not be controlled by our own will) could also turn us into brainwashed zombies.

If people are repeated the same thing over and over, no matter if that thing is good or bad, people will start obsessing about it, and will eventually start acting as if it were true, and turn it into "social norm", or a "social fact".  (See for example religion).

It's like in the old saying "Anything repeated 1000 times becomes truth".  Could be a screaming lie, doesn't matter, still works, the lie will be believed in the end as a true fact.  But I'd like to rephrase that in terms of neural networks (NN).

A neural network is carved by the predominant signals it is exposed to.

Sometimes called NN training, sometimes propaganda, or mind conditioning, or even brainwashing when the training is brutal and meant to kill the existing NN paths in order to replace them with some other desired drone behavior.

The only way to resist brainwashing and propaganda is to avoid its repetition and patterns. Even when fully aware, nobody can stay exposed to brainwashing and remain the same, or escape being annihilated. The only way to cope is to not get exposed. Either kill the brainwashing signal, or shield from it.

Same dog can be trained to guide, or to kill. Reality is irrelevant. Truth is irrelevant. Unless it strikes one dead in an instant. But usually it takes time until the reality and the truth catch up with the neural network mis-training. Meanwhile bad things and suffering may happen.

------------------------



TL;DR
=====
One can only vote for the laws of our society, but can not vote for the laws of physics, therefore voted "experts" is a bad idea.
 
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Offline PKTKS

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2022, 12:09:20 pm »
- The most important counter argument is that science does not work by voting.  Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think.  Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.
(..)

That would be funny if science would resolve itself by voting....  ::)
however.. some esoteric religions already had god nomination polls...

Paul
 

Offline magic

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2022, 12:26:06 pm »
There are natural laws of social interactions that can't be meaningfully changed by voting either, but what was the topic supposed to be? ;D

Voting by members is a trainwreck. There exists a whole social media site built around the concept of voting on every single post and it's a hive mind where popular or simply novel and somewhat plausible ideas get upvoted regardless of their factual correctness. (More accurately, it hosts a number of sub-hives which sometimes spit on each other, but hardly differ in their nature). Certain clones of that site that claim to be better are only better to the extent of having a narrower and more specialized audience where slightly less BS could fly uncontested, although countering already upvoted BS is still a bit of an uphill battle.

Voting who gets an expert badge? Not sure how that could work. Do I get a vote too? :-DD

I suppose Dave could curate a list, but it's extra work for him and I'm sure there will still be some occasional "democrats" unhappy with his choices and demanding that he listens to the Voice Of The People (them specifically, and a few who agree with them).


And speaking of analog experts, who would actually get this title? There doesn't seem to be much analog going on on this forum in the first place. Some PSU here, a dummy load there. The most likely candidates to my eye are mostly voltnuts rarely seen outside their own playground section.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2022, 12:35:36 pm »
My instinct is, I like it, but, it won't matter. :-DD

Ain't no one gives a shit who you are on the internet, and that's pretty plain to see in most [technical] disagreements here.


There's a little too much possibility for self-promotion here too. An observation I've made is that anyone who chooses a user name that includes words like "export", "wizard", "master", academic titles, and other such like terms is usually (but not infallibly always) a walking talking example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I should probably put that below my avatar as well, huh?  (Or perhaps, apologize (in part) for your having to make that parenthetic exception.) :-DD


How about instead of expert, professional. That is to say, someone who actually works every day in a particular discipline vs someone who plays around at home. Not that that's an infallible guide to competence of course.

Interesting, but there are plenty of amateurs more capable than the average professional.  Technically, it's just whether you get paid for it or not.  I think to really make it valuable, it would have to be fleshed out much more: okay you're "professional" so what, that means you get paid, that means you're advertising that and want to get paid -- it could be fleshed out into a "professionals for hire" section where, in short, work-wanted profiles might be posted.  Which would be interesting enough, probably something of modest value for the participants -- and Dave can decide what tradeoffs should be with respect to forum readability / not spammy-ility and what value to charge for such advertisement if any.  I don't know that it would really be all that important overall?  A fair number of professionals do read this forum, but very few that are shopping for labor.  (I will note, I have received a handful of leads over the years through this account, so it's been a net positive, professionally speaking; if hardly anything to stake my livelihood on.  In return -- at least, I'd like to think so, and if I do say so myself -- the quality of posts here has materially increased from my participation, a win-win situation.)


A related angle, might be allowing a donation button on user profiles, for those that opt in; merely pushing a "thanks" button is one thing, but if you want actual meaningful answers, put your money where your mouth is, right?

This probably has all sorts of financial as well as practical (forum integration) issues, though...


Disclaimer: I mean, look at my post count, obviously additions like the above are likely to benefit me. :P

Tim
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 12:48:48 pm by T3sl4co1l »
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Offline tom66

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2022, 12:47:59 pm »
"Maybe".  I would say it could be implemented but it risks becoming a competition rather than a mark of genuine expertise in a field.

Quite happy with the status quo, and add that the 'Thanks' system is quite a good way of doing things as it stands.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2022, 01:10:38 pm »
- The most important counter argument is that science does not work by voting.  Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think.  Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.
(..)

That would be funny if science would resolve itself by voting....  ::)
Actually it kind of is. Science is truth by consensus.

Which circles back to my view that a system where people are labelled as expert on a forum leads to opinions getting more weight added to them. But who is going to guarantee that these opinions are 'right'? Also, some people are better (like politicians) at phrasing their opinions than others.

The way I see it, a forum is a place where you go looking for informed opinions on a subject and share information to have debates. If you look for information, find literature (Wikipedia is often a good place to start) and read that.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 01:52:42 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2022, 01:36:31 pm »
Worth giving this a little run again...

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