Poll

What do you think about having designated "Expert" forum users?

I don't like it
126 (71.6%)
Maybe
26 (14.8%)
I like it
24 (13.6%)

Total Members Voted: 174

Author Topic: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?  (Read 47568 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« on: February 15, 2022, 03:45:38 am »
A forum user brought this up and I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

Essentially, people could nominate and/or vote on who are known "Experts" in a particular field and give them an "Expert" designator tag. e.g. Analog Expert, Acoustics Expert etc.
This could potentially help newbies or generally just anyone asking a question to perhaps be more confident in a technical answer if it comes from a designated "Expert" in that field. Help weed out the weat from the chaff so to speak.

I think it's an interesting idea in principle.
It's possible in the SMF forum software to have additional categories that where members can be allocated into groups which shows up under their username, just like we currently have for Frequent Contributor, Supporter etc.

Of course the posible problems are obvious:

1) It could be seen as an "appeal to authority" which is not how science/engineering is supposed to work. The best technical argument is supposed to "win".

2) Being an expert in one area does not make you an expert in another area, and that's certainly the case when it comes down to something that it's just personal opinion. So maybe some avenue for possible abuse here? Although if it's just a label and the Expert was given no extra moderator power in the forum then maybe that's moot. But I could imagine some getting the label and then it going to their head somehow.

3) It could lead to infighting about who gets the tag, "they aren't worthy of it any more, see this post" etc.

You probably couldn't have just "Expert" on it's own of course, that's kind meaningless, it would have to specific like "Analog Expert" etc.

Anyway, thoughts please...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 04:55:49 am by EEVblog »
 
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Online ataradov

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2022, 04:16:58 am »
I can see a lot of fighting on what constitutes "an expert". Many things have multiple fundamental approaches (scientific rigor vs engineering winging it). Both are valid in some cases, and an a theoretical expert's opinion may override a more practical approach for a given situation.

I see it going better the other way - marking people that just rant and don't contribute anything of substance or conspiracy nuts. It is a less positive "badge", so exposing it publicly may be controversial too.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 04:19:30 am by ataradov »
Alex
 
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Offline amyk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2022, 04:30:12 am »
Where's the "I like it, but only if I can be one" choice? :P

More seriously, I usually pay less attention to who posted something, than what they posted. From that perspective, emphasising the former wouldn't be a good idea.

(I think you're missing a "not" in your second problem.)
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2022, 04:32:57 am »
Hmm. Generally I don't feel very easy about it.

Some random thoughts. Note that this is not a thought-out analysis, but just some things that immediately come to mind.

Who decides who is 'expert' or not? If the expertise is narrow enough there may not even be anyone else around who has sufficient relevant expertise to act as a confirmatory "Yup, he's an expert" or a "Nope, he's a fool".

There's a little too much possibility for self-promotion here too. An observation I've made is that anyone who chooses a user name that includes words like "export", "wizard", "master", academic titles, and other such like terms is usually (but not infallibly always) a walking talking example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. i.e. Knows enough to be dangerous and over-confident in their own abilities, but actually has at best half a clue. So self nomination is right out in my book.

But if people are nominated by others then there's a risk that they may not want that nomination. That would need handling carefully to avoid all round embarrassment.

Also it could push a lot of work in the direction of nominated 'experts'. I don't think I particularly stand out from the crowd as one of the 'go to' guys but I already get the odd PM out of the blue from other forum users along the lines of "I saw you'd written several times about X and I've got a related problem Y, can you help". Generally if I can I do, but the requests are few and far between. Now if, god forbid, I got the tag of "Go to man for turbo-encabulator expertise" I can imagine that the PMs might flow thick and fast. It needs some thought about how to handle this to prevent people ending up with a part-time unpaid consultancy gig. It's one thing to chirp up in a topic if you're in the mood and have useful expertise to impart, and if you're not in the mood you can just pass. It's not quite so easy if you've got a personal appeal for help sitting in your PMs.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 04:34:37 am by Cerebus »
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Online ataradov

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2022, 04:35:21 am »
An another issue would be karma farming that a lot of people can't resist for some reason. It risks to turn into stack overflow situation.

I personally don't want to be in any special groups like this.

Alex
 
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Offline fourfathom

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2022, 04:38:52 am »
I hang out on a non-technical forum where members can give other members up-votes or down-votes.  I think I have only up-votes there (because that's the kind of person I am!) but I still don't like it.  When politics or other opinions run hot the votes end up showing who is "in the club" and who is out.  Perhaps on this engineering forum this wouldn't be as much of a problem, but in any case I don't think the "expert" status is needed.  This is a public-access forum, anybody asking questions here should know that, and from what I've seen any "wrong" information gets corrected (or at least well-discussed) pretty quickly.
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2022, 04:40:34 am »
Whoo. Gee. Can of worms.

In the old days it was thought, on early forums, that those with ridiculously high post counts were the experts. Of course we know better now.

I don't understand what is wrong with the existing Thanked User system here. The first one to answer with the nearest solution is marked by consensus.

What I've seen in the past with novices who do search before posting is sometimes they wanted to hear answers from others and not a loudmouth who might be dominating every thread with their BS.

I think it comes back to learning the art of asking the question in a certain way and then being able to self moderate the thread a bit.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2022, 04:43:25 am »
Can we give treez a special title instead?
 

Online MrMobodies

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2022, 04:48:12 am »
Maybe I misunderstand but I thought that was what the moderators were for nominated to a board/subject of their expertise.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2022, 04:55:52 am »
Maybe I misunderstand but I thought that was what the moderators were for nominated to a board/subject of their expertise.

This is a side-effect of the problem posed. How do you assign people to topics without giving them the super mod powers?
iratus parum formica
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2022, 04:58:08 am »
Where's the "I like it, but only if I can be one" choice? :P
More seriously, I usually pay less attention to who posted something, than what they posted. From that perspective, emphasising the former wouldn't be a good idea.

That's what I do in most cases too. I guess it's more for newbies who get a whole bunch of responses and don't have the technical ability to judge each post on its technical merits.
Although we do have the Thanks system for posts.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2022, 04:58:52 am »
Maybe I misunderstand but I thought that was what the moderators were for nominated to a board/subject of their expertise.

We don't moderate technical content here.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2022, 05:02:58 am »
I don't understand what is wrong with the existing Thanked User system here. The first one to answer with the nearest solution is marked by consensus.

It's used a bit but I guess not often enough to be really useful. No one looks every beginner thread and gives a rate unlike say StackExchange.
Maybe it's just not possible on a chat forum based system to solve this, it's just the wrong platform to even try? Horses for courses so to speak. Stack Exchange will always do it way better?
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2022, 05:07:01 am »
Like @Ed.Kloonk said, the Thanks system usually indicates a valid answer to a question or solution, or a more valuable contribution.
Anyway, I have been here long enough to know who here is an authority on a certain discipline and who the far less knowledgeable are.
I am pretty good at being able to see the wood for the treez…
Where are we going, and why are we in a handbasket?
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2022, 05:08:53 am »
I hang out on a non-technical forum where members can give other members up-votes or down-votes.  I think I have only up-votes there (because that's the kind of person I am!) but I still don't like it.  When politics or other opinions run hot the votes end up showing who is "in the club" and who is out.  Perhaps on this engineering forum this wouldn't be as much of a problem, but in any case I don't think the "expert" status is needed.  This is a public-access forum, anybody asking questions here should know that, and from what I've seen any "wrong" information gets corrected (or at least well-discussed) pretty quickly.

Way back we trialed a rating system of some sort here (thumbs up/down was it?), but IIRC it was abused with people just voting down people they didn't like. I think we did a poll and the majorty voted to remove it in favour of a simple Thanks system.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2022, 05:09:58 am »
An another issue would be karma farming that a lot of people can't resist for some reason. It risks to turn into stack overflow situation.
I personally don't want to be in any special groups like this.

What's the "stack overflow situation"?
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2022, 05:10:58 am »
I don't understand what is wrong with the existing Thanked User system here. The first one to answer with the nearest solution is marked by consensus.

It's used a bit but I guess not often enough to be really useful. No one looks every beginner thread and gives a rate unlike say StackExchange.
Maybe it's just not possible on a chat forum based system to solve this, it's just the wrong platform to even try? Horses for courses so to speak. Stack Exchange will always do it way better?

I wanted to suggest stack exchange. But here's the rub. I have started to ask here instead SE because of the rabbit hole effect. Over on unix.SE, once the question is technically answered, any further dialogue is nixxed.

WRT thanking users, I wish more people would try and thank the one good answer in a sort of drive-by thanking without feeling the need to contribute further. Takes a second to hit the button.
iratus parum formica
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2022, 05:12:42 am »
WRT thanking users, I wish more people would try and thank the one good answer in a sort of drive-by thanking without feeling the need to contribute further. Takes a second to hit the button.

Maybe it could be renamed to something else? like Valuable?
e.g. "The following users thought this post was Valuable"
 
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Online ataradov

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2022, 05:14:32 am »
What's the "stack overflow situation"?
People are fighting for upvotes and begging OPs to accept their solution as correct. And all for fake internet points.  It is pathetic.
Alex
 
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Online MrMobodies

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2022, 05:18:14 am »
I see, so it is based on a level of trust between the members that have voted for someone.

I think I have seen other boards do that before and one I recall even had an "enthusiasts" title.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2022, 05:18:45 am »
WRT thanking users, I wish more people would try and thank the one good answer in a sort of drive-by thanking without feeling the need to contribute further. Takes a second to hit the button.

Maybe it could be renamed to something else? like Valuable?
e.g. "The following users thought this post was Valuable"

 ;D

It's all getting too close to "Ed.Kloonk likes this". Makes some peeps run for the hills.
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2022, 05:21:06 am »
That's what I do in most cases too. I guess it's more for newbies who get a whole bunch of responses and don't have the technical ability to judge each post on its technical merits.
Although we do have the Thanks system for posts.

I don't see too much of newbies getting bad or conflicting advice as I think most people are a bit careful about that sort of thing.  Of course there are vigorous, um, 'debates' about some topics, but I don't think the quality of help provided for real-world problems would be improved beyond what self-regulation has done so far.  As for who is a qualified expert, that's not easy to sort out--I might know the exact answer to a repair question because I just solved it on my bench yesterday, but then I've no clue on a very similar issue that I haven't seen before--but someone else has.
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Online ataradov

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2022, 05:21:08 am »
It's all getting too close to "Ed.Kloonk likes this". Makes some peeps run for the hills.
It already is "likes". For that exact reason I have thanks buttons here adblocked.
Alex
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2022, 05:24:09 am »
I see, so it is based on a level of trust between the members that have voted for someone.

I think I have seen other boards do that before and one I recall even had an "enthusiasts" title.

The titles such as that are bestowed often automaticity once you reach a certain number of posts.

Big forums like Ubuntu used to (still do?) dabble it it. It is a symptom of the sheer volume of users asking questions and the need to address so many users.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2022, 05:27:01 am »
What's the "stack overflow situation"?
People are fighting for upvotes and begging OPs to accept their solution as correct. And all for fake internet points.  It is pathetic.

The way some people go about it, obvious neophytes, it looks like they want a "I got seven zillion points on Stackexchange" badge to put on their CV/Resume.

Every forum that sets up some kind of rewards system, even if just points or upvotes, seems to acquire people who rush around answering everything, whether it's actually helpful or not. There's one Eevblog forum participant who rarely comments here, yet on one of the 'other' EE forums they seem to make every third post and have a gazillion 'points'. The drive for engagement produces really, really poor quality posts.
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2022, 05:28:00 am »
I would tend to avoid it.  I was heavily involved in a related system at a large corporation.  All of the social issues mentioned above and many more regularly and prominently occurred.  While the system had positive aspects administering it required a great deal of effort (and provided more opportunities for abuse).  I suspect the admin istraters here already have plenty to do
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2022, 05:28:04 am »
I should point out another thing we found in the early Linux forums is that if you do present yourself as a aficionado of a topic, you better be prepared for dealing with the direct messaging from the frustrated.

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Offline Algoma

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2022, 05:39:27 am »
Perhaps a user selectable profile tag that adds a line to their Contributor status, to indicate their general preferred area of skill. First tag is unlocked with Regular Contributor Status.

Receiving a specified number of THANKS allows unlocking additional profile tags, or other unique contributor status to indicate their helpful community involvement.. Let users set their own contributor status, a unique perk unlocked through involvement and helpfulness.

Edit: Such feature is already basically available as Personal Text in the user profile.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 02:25:57 pm by Algoma »
 

Offline Kasper

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2022, 06:14:07 am »
Sounds like a lot of work and drama for the mods and negligable benefit.  Why are you asking for extra work? I hope everything is alright.

If you want to improve the 'thanks' system currently in use, it'd be nice to add the ability to thank from my phone.  I don't see it in the list of post actions.

Auto subscribe could also bring some more activity if that's what you're after.  I sometimes forget to check the box and miss the follow up.

As far as helping the new members figure out who to listen to, that's a tough one.  Some times everyone is right but they differ in complexity.  Some people like over-engineering everything and sharing as much knowledge as possible. Others like efficiency and solving problems as fast as possible. 

Some users want quick answers, others want details.  When someone is new, the complex answers risk scaring them off.  Quick solutions might leave them wanting more but they can always ask more questions.

If you really want to make more work for yourself, maybe some way for users to cast separate votes on posts for accuracy, thuroughness, and efficiency could help people decide which post to follow.  Risks cluttering things up though.  Another option would be to encourage OPs to enter their desired complexity.  They could say if they want a quick fix or a free master class.
 

Online Bud

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2022, 06:24:21 am »
All such regalia just diminish the value of this forum, which is free flowing natural conversations.
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2022, 07:01:06 am »
It's not a bad idea, but much of the crux lies in who gets to decide who's expert.

I'm not sure it matters if you're only labelled an expert in a single field or not. I'd say that if you've rode the Dunning-Kruger rollercoaster once, you're probably able to refrain yourself from dispensing advise from Mt. Stupid the next time around...
 
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Offline Circlotron

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2022, 07:02:45 am »
How about instead of expert, professional. That is to say, someone who actually works every day in a particular discipline vs someone who plays around at home. Not that that's an infallible guide to competence of course.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2022, 07:14:21 am »
How about instead of expert, professional. That is to say, someone who actually works every day in a particular discipline vs someone who plays around at home. Not that that's an infallible guide to competence of course.

If you have to have a rating, you could do better than "professional".  Take me, for example.  I used to work every day as an EE, but have been retired for over 20 years (I retired quite early).  So now I play around at home.  I'm still better at it than some currently-employed engineers.

Again, I vote against the "expert" ranking.  It's unnecessary and likely to cause problems.
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Offline bill_c

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2022, 07:20:10 am »
I don't like it.  But if you feel you must, maybe give "greybeard badges" for specific areas of competence.  Only those who are expert like, good at explaining detail, and good at keeping it on topic, are worthy of such badge.  And better yet, only show the badges in the "newbies" sections.
To a newbie, the explaining and keeping on topic parts are more important than being a certified expert in xyz, as long as the info is correct 99% of the time.  I see many cases where a simple question has N pages of replies, N-0.5 of those pages are debating the 1%.  While technically that 1% can be super important in some cases and its good to know that it sometimes matters, a newbie will be confused with all the debate.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2022, 07:28:20 am »
I like the idea of it, however i am unsure of the actual implementation.

There has to be some way of determining what user gets a tag, so either the moderation team hands them out or the community has to vote someone into it.

Then there is the tenancy for some users to put a disproportionate amount of value on virtual internet points and might treat these tags as achievements. For example the popular IM platform Discord at one point introduced applications for bot developer status where they would get access to the bot API. The approved accounts would also get a bot developer badge on there user profile. The result of this is that the Discord support team got swarmed with bot developer applications from people who never intended to actually use the bot API but just wanted the shiny new badge visible on there user profile. As a result Discord stopped giving the badges while left with a dilemma what to do with the already given out badges. People who have the badge would be upset if they take them away, on the other hand letting them keep the badge would make the badge even more valuable as it is no longer possible to get this badge. Some people even sell discord accounts with rare special usernames or badges. People care a lot about there appearance on the internet.

To be honest i am not even sure what tag i should have if this was implemented. I am a pretty knowledgeable long time forum user, but i couldn't pin down any particular area where i am really really good at. I have done a lot with analog, digital, programing etc.. but at what point is someone deemed an expert.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2022, 08:54:38 am »
I don't understand what is wrong with the existing Thanked User system here. The first one to answer with the nearest solution is marked by consensus.
It's used a bit but I guess not often enough to be really useful. No one looks every beginner thread and gives a rate unlike say StackExchange.
Maybe it's just not possible on a chat forum based system to solve this, it's just the wrong platform to even try? Horses for courses so to speak. Stack Exchange will always do it way better?
The problem may remain, not every thread will get an answer from a designated expert and then :-//

I'm not on SE but it is my understanding that their continue to feed their "experts" more and more badges and internet points to keep that carrot dangling in front of them :D
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2022, 09:12:39 am »
I hang out on a non-technical forum where members can give other members up-votes or down-votes.  I think I have only up-votes there (because that's the kind of person I am!) but I still don't like it.  When politics or other opinions run hot the votes end up showing who is "in the club" and who is out.  Perhaps on this engineering forum this wouldn't be as much of a problem, but in any case I don't think the "expert" status is needed.  This is a public-access forum, anybody asking questions here should know that, and from what I've seen any "wrong" information gets corrected (or at least well-discussed) pretty quickly.

Way back we trialed a rating system of some sort here (thumbs up/down was it?), but IIRC it was abused with people just voting down people they didn't like. I think we did a poll and the majorty voted to remove it in favour of a simple Thanks system.

The majority of those who responded is still a miniscule proportion of forum members. Most polls I've observed here are unrepresentative due to the self selecting nature of the respondents.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2022, 09:15:59 am »
Maybe I misunderstand but I thought that was what the moderators were for nominated to a board/subject of their expertise.

Ha Ha. The moderators are here to sort the chaff from other chaff.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2022, 09:18:39 am »

I think it's an interesting idea in principle.
It's possible in the SMF forum software to have additional categories that where members can be allocated into groups which shows up under their username, just like we currently have for Frequent Contributor, Supporter etc.

(..)
Anyway, thoughts please...


stackoverflow/stackexchange  forum(s) does that with an alternative approach which IMHO functions very well when searching  answers for particular recurrent issues...

The FORUM RATES ANSWERS  .... instead of particular egos...
answers are voted and achieves a "mark" which otherwise function as a very good directive...

It should be  approximately the same thing where users with a high number of collected marks are obviously rated better....

better than egos.
2 cents.
Paul
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 02:23:19 pm by PKTKS »
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2022, 09:36:09 am »
Fair, right/correct identification of Experts and proper implementation won't be possible although it's an admirable pursuit.

Another point to consider is marking members as Experts will flood their inbox with requests for help, something that for the good of the forum should only happen on the forum !
How an Expert might manage such an influx of pleas for help is of course their own business however also consider this has the potential to have them leave or be less active on the forum.

Sure there are massively tall poppies in their chosen fields here there are also some that post rarely that are certainly world leading experts in their fields. Each year we gain more but until they become very well known or you engage with them privately you'd have absolutely no idea of their technical ability.
Some are retired or near to and desire to pass on their knowledge yet others like Tim (T3sl4co1l), so young yet so knowledgeable go to great lengths in his posts providing detailed discussion to explore and instigate deep thought.

My list would present a good number but T3sl4co1l would be #1 for his contributions to other members.
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Offline wilfred

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2022, 09:40:25 am »
I would have considered members such as Mikeselectricstuff, free_electron and Hamster_nz to give consistently well considered answers on a variety of topics. To me they are quite expert. One way to pick the "experts" is to note their lack of participation in the frequent forum bun-fights. And I'm quite sure others exist in good numbers who participate in discussions in topics of less interest to me.

It's not hard to pick who is worth listening to after a while. No-one needs to be labeled.
 
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Offline JohanH

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2022, 10:13:10 am »
I don't think this is fair.

I'm an EE in my paid job and specialist in a certain area. I'm not paid to post on this forum. I'm just here for my hobby, which is another area that I can't consider myself a professional expert in.

If you bring up titles and professions here, it sounds like this is becoming some sort of professional support forum. What would the companies that you work for think about that? Feels awkward to me. If you are self-employed (or unemployed or retired) it is probably different.

Then it is another thing that the Internet has no lack of armchair-experts...
 
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2022, 10:53:35 am »
Essentially, people could nominate and/or vote on who are known "Experts" in a particular field and give them an "Expert" designator tag. e.g. Analog Expert, Acoustics Expert etc.
This could potentially help newbies or generally just anyone asking a question to perhaps be more confident in a technical answer if it comes from a designated "Expert" in that field. Help weed out the weat from the chaff so to speak.

Please don't do that.  In my experience, it has ruined every forum that has adopted such practices.  Look at All About Circuits (AAC).  It used to have no rep in distinct contrast to ElectroTech Online (ETO), which not only had rep, but the amount of rep received was proportional to the amount of rep the giver had.  Anyone remember ETO's green and red squares?

New ownership at AAC decided to add rep.  It went downhill from there in terms of quality.  At AAC, it's become a comedy contest.  Those with the most "likes" (excepting moderators) post YT videos, FB cartoons, and are just plain silly.  The number of likes has absolutely nothing to do with content.  AAC even gives trophies .  Yuck.  One of the moderators, who was obviously aware of the demise of content and had experience at ETO, suggested  adding a rule that only the original poster could give rep for responses in a thread.  That might have helped, but was rejected.  That was years ago.

ETO eventually stopped that original nonsense, which had become more destructive than helpful.  There even seemed to be competitions to give a new poster the most red squares.  After new ownership woke up, it doesn't even put rep ratings under a user's name in posts.  Still, most "positive" ratings are for sarcasm, insults, and comedy.

Stackexchange has something similar to what is being suggested here where merit is judged by certain anointed members.  That system has resulted in some very good and contributory members leaving.  As an unintended consequence, the up/down grading of responses can even be hilarious.  How will the judges be appointed?  What difference will it make?  Most important, will the risk of damage offset the advantages?

EDAboard has/had a very complex system of rep.  Moderators had a lot of control.  In practice, it was no better than any of the others and allowed moderators to go unbridled.  Edaboard is now owned by the same group that owns ETO (or at least was).  It seems also to have gone downhill. 

Personally, I like the status quo here (EEVBlog).  You have the ability to thank someone without filling up space with an otherwise empty response.  Thanks are not emphasized.  That is, you have to go to a posters profile to see them.  I do like "thank" rather than "like."  Most of all, please do not allow negative rep.  That is more destructive than email fights.

EDIT: In no way is that comment meant to reflect on the moderators involved in those forums.  I won't mention any names, but each of those forums has some superb moderators who always try to help posters.  It is testament to their patience that they continue to work as hard as they do. 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 11:01:30 am by jpanhalt »
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2022, 11:14:54 am »
A forum user brought this up and I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

Essentially, people could nominate and/or vote on who are known "Experts" in a particular field and give them an "Expert" designator tag. e.g. Analog Expert, Acoustics Expert etc.
...

- I find that one, nominating experts, one of the worsts ideas.

- Any explanation that starts with a filling/emphasizing word, like "Essentially", to me is an alarm indicator, but maybe I'm too paranoiac and here is not the a case of mind conditioning.

- The most important counter argument is that science does not work by voting.  Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think.  Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.



Not everything can be voted upon.  Voting is about the power of many taking over everything else, including taking over correctness or truth simply by numbers, and completely disconnected from reality.  There is an old saying explaining why that is bad:  "A million flies can't be wrong, eat shit."

The propaganda must be terrifyingly intense these days if people are now starting to think we should vote for everything, including scientific truth, or even engineering truth.

This is to me an example of brainwashing, just like any cult is completely mind-condition its followers into believing even the most absurd claims.  Keep in mind brainwashing can be intended or unintended.  No matter how it came to be, nobody is immune to it, including myself.  This is not about being gullible.  Even the smartest people can be changed.

Oh, and all the above is not about you Dave, I'm a big admirer of your work and achievements.  It's about our world today.  Internet made the repetition possible very cheaply.  We, as humans, were not ready for such a sudden non stop exposure to connectivity.

It's about an issue happening as we speak, IMO.  I don't know if it's happening by itself or as a driven attack, but to me it is clear that it's destroying the western world and it's values.

------------------------

This is how I think it works, told as a tale about training neural networks, where the neural network is the human brain.  Our minds keeps changing/learning/adapting to whatever we are exposed, whether we want it or not.  This feature of continuous learning (that can not be controlled by our own will) could also turn us into brainwashed zombies.

If people are repeated the same thing over and over, no matter if that thing is good or bad, people will start obsessing about it, and will eventually start acting as if it were true, and turn it into "social norm", or a "social fact".  (See for example religion).

It's like in the old saying "Anything repeated 1000 times becomes truth".  Could be a screaming lie, doesn't matter, still works, the lie will be believed in the end as a true fact.  But I'd like to rephrase that in terms of neural networks (NN).

A neural network is carved by the predominant signals it is exposed to.

Sometimes called NN training, sometimes propaganda, or mind conditioning, or even brainwashing when the training is brutal and meant to kill the existing NN paths in order to replace them with some other desired drone behavior.

The only way to resist brainwashing and propaganda is to avoid its repetition and patterns. Even when fully aware, nobody can stay exposed to brainwashing and remain the same, or escape being annihilated. The only way to cope is to not get exposed. Either kill the brainwashing signal, or shield from it.

Same dog can be trained to guide, or to kill. Reality is irrelevant. Truth is irrelevant. Unless it strikes one dead in an instant. But usually it takes time until the reality and the truth catch up with the neural network mis-training. Meanwhile bad things and suffering may happen.

------------------------



TL;DR
=====
One can only vote for the laws of our society, but can not vote for the laws of physics, therefore voted "experts" is a bad idea.
 
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Offline PKTKS

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2022, 12:09:20 pm »
- The most important counter argument is that science does not work by voting.  Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think.  Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.
(..)

That would be funny if science would resolve itself by voting....  ::)
however.. some esoteric religions already had god nomination polls...

Paul
 

Offline magic

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2022, 12:26:06 pm »
There are natural laws of social interactions that can't be meaningfully changed by voting either, but what was the topic supposed to be? ;D

Voting by members is a trainwreck. There exists a whole social media site built around the concept of voting on every single post and it's a hive mind where popular or simply novel and somewhat plausible ideas get upvoted regardless of their factual correctness. (More accurately, it hosts a number of sub-hives which sometimes spit on each other, but hardly differ in their nature). Certain clones of that site that claim to be better are only better to the extent of having a narrower and more specialized audience where slightly less BS could fly uncontested, although countering already upvoted BS is still a bit of an uphill battle.

Voting who gets an expert badge? Not sure how that could work. Do I get a vote too? :-DD

I suppose Dave could curate a list, but it's extra work for him and I'm sure there will still be some occasional "democrats" unhappy with his choices and demanding that he listens to the Voice Of The People (them specifically, and a few who agree with them).


And speaking of analog experts, who would actually get this title? There doesn't seem to be much analog going on on this forum in the first place. Some PSU here, a dummy load there. The most likely candidates to my eye are mostly voltnuts rarely seen outside their own playground section.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2022, 12:35:36 pm »
My instinct is, I like it, but, it won't matter. :-DD

Ain't no one gives a shit who you are on the internet, and that's pretty plain to see in most [technical] disagreements here.


There's a little too much possibility for self-promotion here too. An observation I've made is that anyone who chooses a user name that includes words like "export", "wizard", "master", academic titles, and other such like terms is usually (but not infallibly always) a walking talking example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I should probably put that below my avatar as well, huh?  (Or perhaps, apologize (in part) for your having to make that parenthetic exception.) :-DD


How about instead of expert, professional. That is to say, someone who actually works every day in a particular discipline vs someone who plays around at home. Not that that's an infallible guide to competence of course.

Interesting, but there are plenty of amateurs more capable than the average professional.  Technically, it's just whether you get paid for it or not.  I think to really make it valuable, it would have to be fleshed out much more: okay you're "professional" so what, that means you get paid, that means you're advertising that and want to get paid -- it could be fleshed out into a "professionals for hire" section where, in short, work-wanted profiles might be posted.  Which would be interesting enough, probably something of modest value for the participants -- and Dave can decide what tradeoffs should be with respect to forum readability / not spammy-ility and what value to charge for such advertisement if any.  I don't know that it would really be all that important overall?  A fair number of professionals do read this forum, but very few that are shopping for labor.  (I will note, I have received a handful of leads over the years through this account, so it's been a net positive, professionally speaking; if hardly anything to stake my livelihood on.  In return -- at least, I'd like to think so, and if I do say so myself -- the quality of posts here has materially increased from my participation, a win-win situation.)


A related angle, might be allowing a donation button on user profiles, for those that opt in; merely pushing a "thanks" button is one thing, but if you want actual meaningful answers, put your money where your mouth is, right?

This probably has all sorts of financial as well as practical (forum integration) issues, though...


Disclaimer: I mean, look at my post count, obviously additions like the above are likely to benefit me. :P

Tim
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 12:48:48 pm by T3sl4co1l »
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Online tom66

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2022, 12:47:59 pm »
"Maybe".  I would say it could be implemented but it risks becoming a competition rather than a mark of genuine expertise in a field.

Quite happy with the status quo, and add that the 'Thanks' system is quite a good way of doing things as it stands.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2022, 01:10:38 pm »
- The most important counter argument is that science does not work by voting.  Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think.  Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.
(..)

That would be funny if science would resolve itself by voting....  ::)
Actually it kind of is. Science is truth by consensus.

Which circles back to my view that a system where people are labelled as expert on a forum leads to opinions getting more weight added to them. But who is going to guarantee that these opinions are 'right'? Also, some people are better (like politicians) at phrasing their opinions than others.

The way I see it, a forum is a place where you go looking for informed opinions on a subject and share information to have debates. If you look for information, find literature (Wikipedia is often a good place to start) and read that.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 01:52:42 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2022, 01:36:31 pm »
Worth giving this a little run again...

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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2022, 01:44:16 pm »
I understand the desire to do this. People are wrong on the Internet! Who do you trust? Especially in the beginner section, people who try to be helpful but have no idea whatsoever make more harm than good by coming up with total BS replies; they mean no harm of course (think Capernicus as an example).

But, the current system where everyone has the equal chances to make a well justified reply, works out really well. It puts the emphasis on the quality of the answer itself, and people are not stupid; they can see what replies are well formed and contain most information. If it all plays out logically, then it's likely a correct answer, and even if it isn't, it will trigger further corrections.

If you give "Expert" status for some, it really does not help those who actually are capable of giving good expert answers already, as their replies already speak for themselves. But it leaves a lot of room for unnecessary social games, and lowers the bar of the actual information quality, as it doesn't need to stand out on its own anymore, in worst case becoming secondary.
 
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Offline armandine2

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2022, 02:00:26 pm »
Though I've ticked "I like it" - "it" for me would have a low-ish "expert" bar.

What I envisage is that eevblog (or just Dave) sets an online examination - if you submit to the process and pass you get a rosette by your avatar.

When something "technical" comes up, and the answers/comments are read, the rosette may give a reassuring indication that the proponent has some credential to give a useful answer.
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Offline Yansi

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2022, 02:20:03 pm »
Please avoid using the "experting" of some users.

Even though one is not an expert (or marked-as-expert) in certain topic, he still may give a very precise and expert suggestions and answers.  By "experting" others, you may then discourae non-expert-marked individuals to post their answers and suggestions.  And, it will not help receiving better answers anyway.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2022, 04:06:29 pm »
There's a little too much possibility for self-promotion here too. An observation I've made is that anyone who chooses a user name that includes words like "export", "wizard", "master", academic titles, and other such like terms is usually (but not infallibly always) a walking talking example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I should probably put that below my avatar as well, huh?  (Or perhaps, apologize (in part) for your having to make that parenthetic exception.) :-DD

Ha! No, I was thinking that I can name one exception to the rule who has 'master' in their handle but who isn't a total dimwit/dweeb/fantacist (except with relation to my  jokes, they go straight over his head). As a corollary, people who name themselves after their favourite part or part number generally seem to be among the more level headed. (Do you want me to make a parenthetical exception here?)  :)
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Offline Kasper

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2022, 04:11:34 pm »
It's not a bad idea, but much of the crux lies in who gets to decide who's expert.

I'm not sure it matters if you're only labelled an expert in a single field or not. I'd say that if you've rode the Dunning-Kruger rollercoaster once, you're probably able to refrain yourself from dispensing advise from Mt. Stupid the next time around...

"Dispensing advice from Mt. Stupid".  That is the best interpretation of Dunning-Kruger that I have seen.  Thanks.  Sometimes I get frustrated when people do this but now I will have an image in my head of them yodeling on Mt. Stupid and I will chuckle. 
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2022, 04:59:44 pm »
A forum user brought this up and I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

Essentially, people could nominate and/or vote on who are known "Experts" in a particular field and give them an "Expert" designator tag. e.g. Analog Expert, Acoustics Expert etc.

I see this particular forum, as being a hobbyist, fun with electronics, but especially INFORMAL forum. Where many electronics people (as well as pure hobbyists) hang out.

Implementing the TITLES system, would in my mind change the personality of the forum. It could then end up falling between two stools. Too unprofessional to count as an official source and yet too formal, for people to leave casual/quick answers.

If someone needs professional electronics internet places, they already exist. I see this forum, as being a sort of half-way house between such places (but the professional ones can be too formal, difficult, inflexible, on-topic-only), and forums, where complete mayhem seems to exist (at least in some areas of such places, e.g. Open Political Discussions).
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 05:01:58 pm by MK14 »
 
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Online rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2022, 05:41:57 pm »
From the Topic OP's point of view, once an Expert replies to his query, the subject is closed.  Who will give a better response?  Auto close the thread?

From other respondents' point of view, once an Expert replies there is no reason to add content.  The Expert solution is now known.  All other solutions are of lesser value.

We could save all the titles and troubles by just limiting replies to Experts and skip over all the enthusiasts.

I left a forum where I had participated for many years when they changed the board to include the concept of "Trophy Points" and "Trophies" for the number of replies and, I believe, Likes.  That seemed rather juvenile for a very serious forum so I bailed.  I'm not in the business of gathering up trophies.

No, I'm not a fan of the Expert concept but it would shorten up a lot of threads.  Maybe that's a good thing, probably not.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 06:00:43 pm by rstofer »
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2022, 06:32:31 pm »
I may look at a member's footer, see what they say, do some of my own research of my own to form my own conclusions and trust them that way.

I see many experts for all sorts of things on this board especially what they put on their footers.

What I wouldn't like to find are arguments between such people on who insists they are always right based on some nomination alone but I am sure expect they'll know better than that.

I was thinking what about having such people on a call in basis but then that might devalue other members here.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 06:36:14 pm by MrMobodies »
 
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Offline fourfathom

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2022, 06:34:29 pm »
No, I'm not a fan of the Expert concept but it would shorten up a lot of threads.  Maybe that's a good thing, probably not.

Definitely not a good thing.  The OP is not the only audience for a thread.  I, for one, appreciate the follow-on questions, alternate approaches, and technical digressions that come from an extended discussion.  The thread dies when people are no longer interested in it.  This is a big reason why I hang out here, rather than on Stack Exchange.  EEVblog Forum is where we go for a good technical discussion, not to rack up ego-points.

FWFW, I still visit Stack Exchange when I have a specific programming or HDL question.  I do a Google search, and if Stack Exchange pops up I check it out.  But I have stopped actively answering questions there.
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2022, 06:35:35 pm »
I agree with pretty much all points made by Dave, in particular this one:
Quote
1) It could be seen as an "appeal to authority" which is not how science/engineering is supposed to work. The best technical argument is supposed to "win".

Well, almost. Except that in many threads, there *isn't* just one answer that "wins". That's not how science works either, and engineering even less so. In many cases, there's a bunch of equally valid answers, given from different perspectives/requirements/constraints/... That's what makes a discussion "rich", but is also the only reasonable way of dealing with forum topics IMHO, as the OP's questions are often subject to interpretation, so judging there is only ONE valid answer would assume that the question is 100% unambiguously understood, which is rarely the case.

And then, that would just make it annoying for people not getting the 'expert' tag to answer, and that would probably drastically limit the discussions.

Whoever would get to vote for the status? Following the whole logic, experts should be voted by experts. Doesn't look like it would be practical. "Lambda" people voting for the status would be way slippery (as we can see with any kind of large-scale voting): would make it likely that the "loud ones" would get more votes, just like with any other vote.

Finally, that's also a bad idea in that it would give users asking questions the wrong idea about how to find information and how to learn.
That's unfortunately a trend, looking for the ultimate "truth" and for information ready for "immediate consumption".

If you want a taste of what it could look like, just go to Stackoverflow. If you think that's what a forum should be like, go right ahead! (But lets' not forget to make a difference between a purely independent and *free* forum, and a web site that is a commercial service with free but limited access.) So, just my 2 cents anyway.

 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2022, 06:53:11 pm »
No, I'm not a fan of the Expert concept but it would shorten up a lot of threads.  Maybe that's a good thing, probably not.

Definitely not a good thing.  The OP is not the only audience for a thread.  I, for one, appreciate the follow-on questions, alternate approaches, and technical digressions that come from an extended discussion.  The thread dies when people are no longer interested in it.  This is a big reason why I hang out here, rather than on Stack Exchange.  EEVblog Forum is where we go for a good technical discussion, not to rack up ego-points.

I agree 100%.  It's often the side bars that make a thread interesting.  Separate issue:  How many times are the queries so poorly formulated that nobody could give a correct answer the first time?  It takes interaction to nail down the question and then collaboration to posit a solution.  All of which is wiped out the instant an Expert replies.
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2022, 07:02:28 pm »
The pattern I usually see is this curve with two peaks: a bunch of very low quality answers by people who try to be helpful, but either did not pay attention, or just don't have any idea what they are talking about. Then there are all the rest, generating a fruitful discussion with many different viewpoints, none of which is necessarily the full "truth". The good quality answers might even have inaccuracies or errors in them, but they get fixed.

The risk here is, many of the "overall bullshitters" do have decent social skills. Nothing prevents them getting the "Expert" status. Now, the bullshitters struggle because their posts get corrected by others, but the "Expert" status could get in the way. What happens when the bullshitter has the "expert" status, and the corrector does not?

I specifically like long but well organized posts like Nominal Animal's or T3sl4co1l's, which show excellent expertise in the subject. I'm seeing a trend that the longer the post, the easier it is to assess the quality: most very long posts are also very informative and well thought out, but those that are not, are easy to dismiss since you just automatically ignore them as reading through them seems massive waste of time.

My pet peeve is when the bullshitters, who have nothing to say, get butthurt when one of the long-wall-of-text contributors extends the subject (on-topic, but drifting a bit) and start complaining still contributing nothing. Then they click "report to the moderator" button trying to manipulate moderators against the contributors. Haven't seen this anymore recently, but anyway, I can totally see these troublemakers going to extended lengths to gain the Expert status.

So, if no voting, how else you would give that status? By number of posts? That is already visible. By number of thanks? This correlates with quality only partially. When Nominal Animal writes a super-informative post, he gets 1-3 thanks. When some poor soul has an unpopular opinion about some (maybe off-topic) matter, and someone else gives an easily agreeable counterargument, maybe some sniffy one-liner, without much actual contribution, the latter gets 10-30 thanks. Think about it. Thanking system completely mixes the "thanks for the contribution" and "thanks for being socially acceptable" types of responses.

Add a voting system and tell people to use it for technical merits only? Nope, it's going to end up exactly like the thank you button.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 07:05:27 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline magic

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2022, 07:17:32 pm »
To the few before Siwastaja: let's not lose track of what Dave's question was about.

It's not some special Expert Answers delivered by the chosen few and highlighted with bold font in <blink> tags, but custom titles under the username so that a newcomer who gets two guys arguing contrary points in incomprehensible technobabble in his thread stands a chance of picking out the Good Guy.

For most of the time I think this function is already provided by standard social dynamics: there is typically more than two people reading any thread, and they usually go and flame the Bad Guy together, exerting peer pressure on the OP to accept the Right Way.

I think most of the time when threads end up in dead ends, nonsense or wild speculation it's not because of difficulty in knowing whom to trust, but simply from lack of any attention from anyone with experience in given area to deliver quick sensible answers and cut the BS.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2022, 07:21:00 pm »
From the Topic OP's point of view, once an Expert replies to his query, the subject is closed.  Who will give a better response?  Auto close the thread?

Nah, or, not quite.  I suppose something like that would go: question-asker asks the question, thread is locked to others besides experts and OP (since OP might not provide sufficient information at first), then experts weigh in.

I suppose that sort of a thing would be easy enough to implement on a forum too, experts could simply be given mod rights to the relevant subforums and that's that.

That's kind of what Stack implements, users can edit their messages (and sometimes elevated users or "community" can edit others!), and add responses; and there's a comment section below each message/reply to discuss things more informally (that would be harder to emulate on an un-threaded forum).

As for the value of that -- I for one would certainly welcome the discussion.  It shouldn't be locked, but... maybe could stand to be a little more restrictive than it is now, but in what way exactly, I'm not sure?  Anyway, for my part, I certainly don't give perfect answers, most of the time I treat a post as a prompt and begin discussing whatever comes off the top of my mind on that subject.  Might be (might, he says?..) superfluous to OP; might be about a cluster of topics around, but beside the central point; might be about a cluster of topics but misrepresenting their relative importance (classic topic: the number of articles about slotting ground planes vastly outnumbers the real-world applications of the technique!).  Or I might simply make errors in writing it down, or thinking about it at all, even for subjects I know well; braining is hard!

So, some commentary, constructive criticism, is certainly welcome.  And then, an improvement in information quality would be appreciated, I suppose.  To the extent that can be easily done, anyway.

And to clarify, by "restriction", it would probably be in very minor ways -- things like, needing to show the least bit of interest in the subject, responsibility for the conversation -- for example, subscribing to the thread first, and then replies are available.  Or maybe it's by category or something, so you're subscribed to the subforum, or the post is tagged with subjects, and when you subscribe to those, relevant threads show up on your feed automatically; etc.

For all its problems, this is perhaps one thing Stack does well -- ugly though it may be.  It has, at least the impression that, if you make a careless reply, you're going to get snapped at and downvoted into oblivion, so you better make sure your information is on point.  That's... a way to do that, I think.

Now, to be clear, I wouldn't want this place to become Stack-like.  This is, and should be, a community.  Community isn't something Stack is good at, at least as far as I've seen.

At best, there'd be, like... maybe a Wiki or something* on the side, that's, hopefully, somewhat carefully cultivated, with rich, detailed, connected content useful in regards to common questions.

*Not that exact one (because that's specifically for the resources as shown), but, more for sake of saying: we kinda already have it.

But also, wikis have been tried in many places, and they rarely have sticking power.  They end up neglected and unused.  Something of a circular problem, there's nothing good there so no one visits, right?...

The problem ultimately is, good information takes a lot of time and effort to cultivate, and without people specifically responsible for it, and vested in it, it stumbles, or falls to ruin entirely.

And where Stack excels in that "market", is managing to be one of the top collections of useful resources on the net.  That works great for a lot of mainstream subjects: computer science, SE where most of the time there's just a handful of things missing from, say, a successful install of le package-du-jour; even fairly informal topics like fictional writing (Worldbuilding, Scifi, even Roleplaying shows up on the sidebar often enough).  The latter can probably bring more of a community discussion sort of aspect, which is interesting.

On the other hand, EE seems to be a subject just... manifestly poorly suited to the same approach?  I've never been impressed by the quality of questions nor answers I've seen on the EE StackExchange.  (Granted, there are plenty of unimpressive questions here, too, but more curious seems to be the fact that they're all pretty similar; and, see also the EE subreddit.)  I'm not sure that it's a matter of common questions coming up often enough to be worth reviewing and improving, or if there's just very little resource to do so (i.e., most of us have something better [paying] to do? -- but then, CS/SE pays very well, and there are many excellent posts in that domain).  Or maybe it's a matter of scaling, it's just not as big a community, so of course the frequency of questions, and pruning and polishing of answers, simply lacks; I don't know.


So, as concerns the discussing-a-subject-and-related-topics-around-it that I am wont to do..... there you go. :P I hadn't contemplated much about the role and (internal) function of Stack before (and, presumably by extension, Quora and other crowdsourced information sorts of sites? -- I know even less about these, alas), so this has helped (I think?) my understanding of them.  Perhaps writing this down (or thinking out loud..) has provided others with some perspective on those, and perhaps the possible role of our community in the greater internet community, those sort of things?  Idunno.


Quote
I left a forum where I had participated for many years when they changed the board to include the concept of "Trophy Points" and "Trophies" for the number of replies and, I believe, Likes.  That seemed rather juvenile for a very serious forum so I bailed.  I'm not in the business of gathering up trophies.

No, I'm not a fan of the Expert concept but it would shorten up a lot of threads.  Maybe that's a good thing, probably not.

Anyway, going back to this, for sure, any kind of metric needs to be chosen very, very carefully.  Never underestimate the psychological will to make line go up.  As soon as you make an indicator a metric, it is no longer a good metric, etc.

For their part, I think (or, suspect, at least..), Slashdot, then later, Reddit and more, did a tremendous service in regards to the democratization of information.  Bringing up/downvotes to the masses, brought scalable (and massive), self-curated content in return.  And yes, all the problems which attend that -- it's easily gamed (karmawhores, trolls, bots), people are fickle, most just want a quick click of dopamine and on to the next post, etc.  Very little critical review of posts/comments; insightful comments get downvoted to hell if they happen to be inconvenient/unpopular; uh, brigading (arguably under the general umbrella of trolls, but a different structure), the list goes on.  And, best of all, it's only ever the illusion of democracy, of course; there always must be some group of mods/admins responsible for ownership and preventing abuse; and, inevitably, curating content according to their specific interests.  These aren't easy problems to solve...

It's fairly surprising that we still don't have many better options than the benevolent dictator...  Nice when it happens, but rare indeed.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2022, 07:29:35 pm »
"Dispensing advice from Mt. Stupid".  That is the best interpretation of Dunning-Kruger that I have seen. 

Just to be clear: I didn't come up with the Mt. Stupid. I just elaborated a bit on it ;)
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2022, 07:30:13 pm »
It seems a good idea at first brush, but as others have previously stated, I foresee too much opportunity for it to go off into the weeds and turn into a cluster fornication, requiring more time and effort from Dave and the other mods for policing.  My vote is to keep it as it is now.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2022, 07:40:31 pm »
It's not some special Expert Answers delivered by the chosen few and highlighted with bold font in <blink> tags, but custom titles under the username so that a newcomer who gets two guys arguing contrary points in incomprehensible technobabble in his thread stands a chance of picking out the Good Guy.
I doubt that is going to work. In some past cases the good guys got banned and the trolls got to stay. You are dealing with engineers here and some are quite far on the autism spectrum.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 07:46:09 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2022, 08:05:05 pm »
When I was a kid long ago we had numerous "Experts" to ask, we knew they were "Experts" and the answers were trustworthy. College courses were taught by the "Experts", they were also called Books.  We had some other "Experts" with a known company/product affiliation, these were called Application Notes from HP, Tektronix, Fluke, LT, National, and so on, or even other "Experts" within the IEEE called "Fellows".

These past "Experts" included Grey & Meyer, Horowitz, Zverev, Rabiner & Gold, Roberge, Pease, Williams, Widlar, later Lee, Razavi and so on. We knew where to go for the right answers to a particular question and we did not have Google, nor the Internet, but didn't have to sift thru eons of mis-information, BS and such.

Today companies generally don't produce the quality App Notes of the past, most true "Experts" don't write textbooks anymore, so a newbie has to resort to Google and/or the Internet, and sift thru all that.

Believe there are a few "Experts" here, that most would agree would provide beneficial and timely information to those newbies that request such. Know they certainly helped me when I joined a couple years ago, but had to spend countless hours/days/weeks finding who they were and sifting thru threads, so having designated "Experts" or whatever you want to call them, seems worthwhile IMO.

Of course the issues of selection and whatnot are difficult, the IEEE seems to have done well with the Fellow nomination and selection process, maybe that model should be considered.

Anyway, I've already paid my "dues" and know who to "listen" to and not, so reducing the suffering for newbies just might prove useful!

Best,

   
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2022, 09:23:50 pm »
I think the whole expert designation idea is a nightmare, which would almost certainly be detrimental to the forum.

Why not leave it to the recipients of advice to decide? .... The forum has a perfectly workable 'Thank' option. It ought to be possible to produce a simple thanked / total posts merit figure (probably weighted with number of posts to avoid the 100% 1 thanked out of 1 posted situation).

If somebody feels it worth thanking a post from another member, then it indicates that they have been helpful / useful. Maybe gaining a high enough ratio can be interpreted as being some sort of 'Expert' if you want to see it that way.

Just the view of a greybeard engineer (who has worked in several sectors).
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2022, 09:33:02 pm »
It just occurred to me.  Maybe "Influencer" maybe be more appropriate?  ;)  At least that plays well on Twitter and FB. (sarc.)
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2022, 09:34:01 pm »
It just occurred to me.  Maybe "Influencer" maybe be more appropriate?  ;)  At least that plays well on Twitter and FB. (sarc.)

 :scared:  ;D
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Online rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2022, 09:46:38 pm »
The risk here is, many of the "overall bullshitters" do have decent social skills. Nothing prevents them getting the "Expert" status. Now, the bullshitters struggle because their posts get corrected by others, but the "Expert" status could get in the way. What happens when the bullshitter has the "expert" status, and the corrector does not?

Or worse, don't get corrected at all and the Expert tag pretty much guarantees that the answer is accepted as gospel.

FWIW, I don't like either of the Stack (Overflow or Exchange) sites I have run across.  The 'leaders' are rude and condescending, something that doesn't happen around here very often.  One thing I see over and over on the Stack... sites:  "This question has been answered!"  Of course it was 5 years ago and doesn't show up in a search because, well, search terms don't quite match.  I don't waste my time on either site.

The nice thing about eevBlog is that the threads tend to wander around a bit before coalescing.  The question was imprecise and several replies go by before the real question is defined.  But it usually gets defined and then an appropriate answer is offered up.  Peer review jumps in and someone comes up with "Did you think about...?".  A few more posts go by figuring out what to do with the new constraint.  But it works and, for the most part, people leave their egos elsewhere.  The interactions are almost always polite.

In my view, this site is just about perfect the way it is.  Questions, even badly posed questions, get answered.  There is usually some consensus by the end of a thread and it's up to the OP to take what they need from the interaction.

It works the way it is, I hope it doesn't get broken.
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2022, 09:59:48 pm »
Where's the "I like it, but only if I can be one" choice? :P
More seriously, I usually pay less attention to who posted something, than what they posted. From that perspective, emphasising the former wouldn't be a good idea.

That's what I do in most cases too. I guess it's more for newbies who get a whole bunch of responses and don't have the technical ability to judge each post on its technical merits.
Although we do have the Thanks system for posts.

Firstly determining who is (not) worth listening to is a valuable life skill for many reasons and in many circumstances. Newbies might as well learn such discrimination ASAP.

Secondly, any such system will be "gamed" in many different ways. For example, one well-known poster that has taken on a new moniker was infamous for thank evey respone - even those demonstrating why he was completely and idiotically wrong.

Most importantly, real experts know how little they know and are unlikely to respond well to competing with those exhibiting Dunning Krueger syndrome.

So, nice idea, but no. If it ain't broke, don't change it!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2022, 10:24:17 pm »

Most importantly, real experts know how little they know and are unlikely to respond well to competing with those exhibiting Dunning Krueger syndrome.

So, nice idea, but no. If it ain't broke, don't change it!

Competing...  Didn't (Don't) we get enough of that at work?
 

Online Bud

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2022, 10:38:29 pm »
Just the view of a greybeard engineer (who has worked in several sectors).

You just found the right designation title ! Instead of Expert Lets call it Greybeard !   ;D
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2022, 10:39:29 pm »
Well, now we have a situation, where the same question could be answered by a professional with a degree, who has 20 years of experience, and only had a few hundred posts in the forum.
Or Jimmy, who is 14, doesn't really understand what voltage is, but spent a lot of time to ramble in the offtopic section, collecting thousands of posts. For a newcomer, it's not obvious who is who.
Or an actual expert, who cannot take no for an answer, and is going to go to the absolute end with their false reality, and is going to defame everyone who is in the way, just because they have some narcissistic mental disorder. I actually worked with this person, it is not pleasant.

At the end, this is not a site for bug bounties, freelance help, or to post every single technical questions because you actually have no idea what you are supposed to do at your job. It's a forum.
 
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Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2022, 10:39:53 pm »
I’ve had a lot of help from various people over the years, some obviously experts, some not so expert but have had the same problems I’m currently having, and know how to solve them.

Likewise, I’m no expert but occasionally see someone post something that I can help them with.

The problem I can foresee is that people may skip the non experts advice and only take notice of those deemed knowledgeable.

This would stop many people bothering to try to help as they are ignored, and those really knowledgable people would effectively have a full time job just answering questions.

I often learn more from a thread where two or three people have different opinions on how to do something properly than one person giving the “correct” answer.

I can see the merit in thinking this is a good idea, but I don’t think it works in reality. If someone gives bad advice, it usually doesn’t take that long for those more knowledgeable in that area to point out they are wrong.

TLDR:

If it isn’t broke, don’t try to fix it
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2022, 11:34:01 pm »
Where's the "I like it, but only if I can be one" choice? :P
More seriously, I usually pay less attention to who posted something, than what they posted. From that perspective, emphasising the former wouldn't be a good idea.

That's what I do in most cases too. I guess it's more for newbies who get a whole bunch of responses and don't have the technical ability to judge each post on its technical merits.
Although we do have the Thanks system for posts.

Firstly determining who is (not) worth listening to is a valuable life skill for many reasons and in many circumstances. Newbies might as well learn such discrimination ASAP.

Yes, I was thinking this and agree.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2022, 11:36:26 pm »
It just occurred to me.  Maybe "Influencer" maybe be more appropriate?  ;)  At least that plays well on Twitter and FB. (sarc.)

Searching for a puke emoji to add to the forum...
 
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Online thm_w

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2022, 11:38:04 pm »
Anyone who feels their expertise is relevant could add it to the "Personal Text" field in their profile. Yansi, tom66, Teslacoil, etc have done that already.
If someone does it who is not an expert, they can get called out. If its a legit callout, mod can edit it permanently to "doofus" or equivalent  >:D

« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 11:39:42 pm by thm_w »
Profile -> Modify profile -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' signatures
 
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Online Someone

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2022, 12:28:51 am »
At the end, this is not a site [....] to post every single technical questions because you actually have no idea what you are supposed to do at your job. It's a forum.
The admins seem to disagree with you on that point!
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2022, 12:41:51 am »
I think rankings of any sort are unnecessary, however, often the content of posts reveals a replyers credentials. Often there are posters that seem to throw in answers that show that they did not even read the OP. Also, there are at least 10 members that seem to reply to every post, sometimes with credulous answers, sometimes not. Then there are the essay posters that write 2 or 3 pages and, well, TLDR often. All of these may get to be called experts from these types of posts. 

Let the content of the posts reveal the truth, and as someone said, the newbies will need to learn discrimination.
PEACE===>T
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2022, 12:49:56 am »
It just occurred to me.  Maybe "Influencer" maybe be more appropriate?  ;)  At least that plays well on Twitter and FB. (sarc.)

Searching for a puke emoji to add to the forum...


🤮

Please don't, if people have to go to the trouble of learning how to input Unicode to get additional emoji to decorate their scribbles with it slows them down. Putting it on a tool bar will only encourage those who seem to need to decorate every sentence (and sometimes every few words) with emoji.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2022, 02:05:44 am »
Anyone who feels their expertise is relevant could add it to the "Personal Text" field in their profile. Yansi, tom66, Teslacoil, etc have done that already.

Yep, good point.
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2022, 02:24:28 am »
Of course the issues of selection and whatnot are difficult, the IEEE seems to have done well with the Fellow nomination and selection process, maybe that model should be considered.

But this forum, isn't to be confused with a very high end University and/or gathering of top Professors. It is a place for various levels of electronics people (hobbyists, workers in the industry, and sometimes experts).
So we shouldn't want/need such formalities here.


Anyway, I've already paid my "dues" and know who to "listen" to and not, so reducing the suffering for newbies just might prove useful!

But beginners don't need help from just extreme experts. Many people can help them. Typically their questions are actually rather simple, which just about anyone (with some electronics know how/experience) can answer.

Let's not see things in a very black and white ONLY kind of way. There are various levels of experience/abilities/knowledge/skills, within electronics people. If someone gets too obsessed with wanting expert only opinions, then it could mean that if they wanted their light bulb changing, they would insist on it being done, only by someone with 3 degrees, 2 masters and at least one professorship and 40 years plus experience.

If we decided one person on the entire forum, is THE expert. Surely they wouldn't have the time and motivation to answer ALL the questions on this forum.

EDIT: Reworded, to be more pleasant.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 03:20:21 am by MK14 »
 
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Offline fourfathom

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2022, 02:50:13 am »
For me, the bottom line is this: It's not broken,  so don't fix it.  I think what we have here works just fine.
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2022, 02:54:01 am »
For me, the bottom line is this: It's not broken,  so don't fix it.  I think what we have here works just fine.

Sometimes you don't realize how good things (the status quo), was, until it gets reduced or lost.

In my experience here. When/if someone responds and has made technical mistake(s) in their answer(s). Other helpful members will typically come along, and gently (or more) nudge, the thread, with the corrected answers. I.e. The current system seems to be working quite well for most people.

On the other hand, I can understand that it is much harder for a true beginner here. To sort out the good answers, from the not so good ones. So, there is at least some merit, to the 'experts' designations. Even if I think it is a bad idea, overall.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 02:56:11 am by MK14 »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2022, 03:26:22 am »
But beginners don't need help from just extreme experts. Many people can help them. Typically their questions are actually rather simple, which just about anyone (with some electrics know how/experience) can answer.

I don't think the need, if there is a need, is for beginners to get answers from "extreme experts" but it would be helpful if beginners and newbies had a way of determining if their advice was coming from someone reasonably sound instead of one of the Dunning-Kruger victims. The problem is that providing help while simultaneously having to disprove the, often shouty, incorrect contributions from the Dunning-Kruger types is both quite hard, and time consuming.

As I've already opined, I'm not keen on badging, or whatever, of the acknowledged 'experts', but while we're demolishing that idea it would be useful, I think, to look at whether there is a way to help newbies navigate the proffered opinions until they get enough knowledge to know when they are being bullshitted or know the personalities well enough to know who to trust and who to disregard.

It might be as simple as agreeing that that we provide a bit of moral support to the sound. If someone trustworthy is offering advice and the usual muppets are muddying the waters, a reply such as "You should listen to Tim (or Tom, or Dick, or Harry) he knows what he's talking about." would be a useful pointer and certainly more productive than picking on a wrong or dubious reply and amplifying it by trying to point out the faults. I must confess that nowadays I let some egregious mistakes from certain repeat offenders slip by because I know that disagreeing with them will just produce a long, drawn-out pointless argument. Occasionally I make the effort, but it's rare now. It would however be much easier to actively bolster the good replies and I wouldn't find it hard to do that.
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2022, 03:28:45 am »
Of course the issues of selection and whatnot are difficult, the IEEE seems to have done well with the Fellow nomination and selection process, maybe that model should be considered.

But this forum, isn't to be confused with a very high end University and/or gathering of top Professors. It is a place for various levels of electronics people (hobbyists, workers in the industry, and sometimes experts).
So we shouldn't want/need such formalities here.


Maybe you should go over to the IEEE and find out what the membership actually is!!! It's composed of young students, undergraduates, graduate, post grads & professors alike, everyone is welcome, no degrees required!! However, they do demand a high level of credibility in papers that get published.

Quote
But beginners don't need help from just extreme experts. Many people can help them. Typically their questions are actually rather simple, which just about anyone (with some electrics know how/experience) can answer.
My experience indicates that the best teachers are the most knowledgable in the subject matter! When a newbie is asking for help, they are often asking to learn as well, and what better way to enrich this learning experience than expert guidance.
Quote
If someone gets too obsessed with wanting expert only opinions, then it could mean that if they wanted your light bulb changing, you would insist on it being done, only by someone with 3 degrees, 2 masters and at least one professorship and 40 years plus experience.
Dunning-Kruger mountain effect??
Quote

If we decided one person on the entire forum, is THE expert. Surely they wouldn't have the time and motivation to answer ALL the questions on this forum.

EDIT: Reworded, to be more pleasant.

And why would we decide on THE one expert, now that would be a brilliant decision!!

Anyway, it seems most folks are not in favor of a group of "experts" in various fields, mainly to help newbies with question/answers and some fundamental learnings.

Best,


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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2022, 03:41:24 am »
But beginners don't need help from just extreme experts. Many people can help them. Typically their questions are actually rather simple, which just about anyone (with some electrics know how/experience) can answer.

I don't think the need, if there is a need, is for beginners to get answers from "extreme experts" but it would be helpful if beginners and newbies had a way of determining if their advice was coming from someone reasonably sound instead of one of the Dunning-Kruger victims. The problem is that providing help while simultaneously having to disprove the, often shouty, incorrect contributions from the Dunning-Kruger types is both quite hard, and time consuming.

As I've already opined, I'm not keen on badging, or whatever, of the acknowledged 'experts', but while we're demolishing that idea it would be useful, I think, to look at whether there is a way to help newbies navigate the proffered opinions until they get enough knowledge to know when they are being bullshitted or know the personalities well enough to know who to trust and who to disregard.

It might be as simple as agreeing that that we provide a bit of moral support to the sound. If someone trustworthy is offering advice and the usual muppets are muddying the waters, a reply such as "You should listen to Tim (or Tom, or Dick, or Harry) he knows what he's talking about." would be a useful pointer and certainly more productive than picking on a wrong or dubious reply and amplifying it by trying to point out the faults. I must confess that nowadays I let some egregious mistakes from certain repeat offenders slip by because I know that disagreeing with them will just produce a long, drawn-out pointless argument. Occasionally I make the effort, but it's rare now. It would however be much easier to actively bolster the good replies and I wouldn't find it hard to do that.

Good point(s), and I agree with you (even if I don't agree with the proposed solution in the opening point of this thread).
It's very hard for me to place myself into the feet/head of these complete beginners and even some with slight experience with electronics. As I have not been in that position, for a very long time.

I now know, looking back into my early days of electronics. That some/many of the projects in electronics magazines (from a long time ago), were in a number of cases. Not especially well designed. In some cases they wouldn't even work. In others, some parts of the design were, let's say questionable.
But that hasn't stopped many people from progressing through their electronics hobby and/or University/similar and/or electronics career paths, with, in some cases great success.

I'm not sure what the best solution is. Perhaps it is leave the forum as it is, or come up with a solution to that problem.
Anyway, I'm not necessarily convinced an 'experts' detonator, is necessarily the right solution.

Some websites, use a points scoring system, where answers are up-voted or down-voted. But I think (as already mentioned by other(s) ), that solution also has its many downsides. Including that the best answers, won't necessarily get the highest score. At least not with 100% reliability, that is.
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2022, 04:04:56 am »
Maybe you should go over to the IEEE and find out what the membership actually is!!! It's composed of young students, undergraduates, graduate, post grads & professors alike, everyone is welcome, no degrees required!! However, they do demand a high level of credibility in papers that get published.

Thanks!. I didn't know that. It shows bias and false assumptions on my part, sorry.
But that is reassuring, that published papers, need high levels of credibility.
My opinion is that the real expert, is testing an actual test circuit, which shows how circuits really behave, rather than what the experts, necessarily believe.
I.e. Theory and Practice, are very important elements in Electronics and can disagree, sometimes in surprising ways.

My experience indicates that the best teachers are the most knowledgable in the subject matter! When a newbie is asking for help, they are often asking to learn as well, and what better way to enrich this learning experience than expert guidance.

That is very, true. But on the other hand, all sorts of resources, are in limited supply. So, the best (most knowledgeable and experienced) electronics teachers, probably don't have the time and energy, to deal with every single electronics student/hobbyist or fellow electronics expert, in a different field.

But when they have got the time and energy, and do post replies on this forum, e.g. in the beginners section. The fact that they are NOT formerly identified as being good/best/expert/great-teacher etc. Is of reasonable concern. Even if the proposed solution, seems to have various drawbacks, as mentioned by myself and others in this thread.

I do get concerned myself. When I see obviously wrong, misleading or even possible safety risks, with some of the posts on this forum. But posting a counter-reply, is not always or often done, for various reasons. Some posters are known to be argumentative if you disagree with them, maybe I'm mistaken or wrong myself. Maybe it is just laziness, as more often than not, someone else will pop into the thread and correct the mistake(s).

Dunning-Kruger mountain effect??

That gets tricky. Because, when I was learning more about that, a while back. It seems to turn out that it is a very often misunderstood concept. Basically, the very vast bulk of the time, the term is incorrectly applied.
If I understand the term (correctly). It really is a term that applies to everyone, novice and professional/expert alike. To varying degrees.

And why would we decide on THE one expert, now that would be a brilliant decision!!

Anyway, it seems most folks are not in favor of a group of "experts" in various fields, mainly to help newbies with question/answers and some fundamental learnings.

The more I think about and discuss this. The more I feel empathy for beginners. As I said in a previous post in this thread. It is extremely difficult for me to put myself into the shoes of a complete beginner of electronics (again, a long time ago in the past, since I was a beginner). So, I could easily be completely missing the difficulties such people have, in reading the situation.

Most of the people who are voting here in this thread, are both already well beyond beginner level, and also who are reasonably well experienced with being on this forum.

So in some respects, it would be fairer, to get the opinions of actual beginners to this forum. See how happy or not, they are at telling the good/best answers, from the less helpful ones.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 04:10:27 am by MK14 »
 

Offline basinstreetdesign

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2022, 05:18:57 am »
A forum user brought this up and I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

Essentially, people could nominate and/or vote on who are known "Experts" in a particular field and give them an "Expert" designator tag. e.g. Analog Expert, Acoustics Expert etc.
This could potentially help newbies or generally just anyone asking a question to perhaps be more confident in a technical answer if it comes from a designated "Expert" in that field. Help weed out the weat from the chaff so to speak.

I think it's an interesting idea in principle.
It's possible in the SMF forum software to have additional categories that where members can be allocated into groups which shows up under their username, just like we currently have for Frequent Contributor, Supporter etc.

Of course the posible problems are obvious:

1) It could be seen as an "appeal to authority" which is not how science/engineering is supposed to work. The best technical argument is supposed to "win".

2) Being an expert in one area does not make you an expert in another area, and that's certainly the case when it comes down to something that it's just personal opinion. So maybe some avenue for possible abuse here? Although if it's just a label and the Expert was given no extra moderator power in the forum then maybe that's moot. But I could imagine some getting the label and then it going to their head somehow.

3) It could lead to infighting about who gets the tag, "they aren't worthy of it any more, see this post" etc.

You probably couldn't have just "Expert" on it's own of course, that's kind meaningless, it would have to specific like "Analog Expert" etc.

Anyway, thoughts please...

I voted no for just those reasons given above.
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Online rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2022, 05:23:05 am »
I think rankings of any sort are unnecessary, however, often the content of posts reveals a replyers credentials. Often there are posters that seem to throw in answers that show that they did not even read the OP. Also, there are at least 10 members that seem to reply to every post, sometimes with credulous answers, sometimes not. Then there are the essay posters that write 2 or 3 pages and, well, TLDR often. All of these may get to be called experts from these types of posts. 

Let the content of the posts reveal the truth, and as someone said, the newbies will need to learn discrimination.

As I watch the Beginner's forum, I see that there are usually several 'correct' answers, usually from slightly different viewpoints.  Now, even a beginner should realize that if a half dozen people agree, the answer is probably correct.  A few outliers don't really push things very far from the proper end result.

It's rare that a question receives only one response.  There is something wrong with the question should this occur.

Sometimes answers are iterative.  The first answer almost answers the question, the second improves upon the first and so on.  By the end, the result is pretty good.

Other times, the question really does have multiple 'correct' answers.  Consider the open-ended question "Which chip should I buy to do this?"  The first respondent will tout the chip he used for that application, the second respondent posts his solution and so on.  There really isn't just one answer and it would be a darn shame if the Expert posted first with the only perceived correct answer and all the alternatives were never discussed.  There are always alternatives!  Sometimes 'best' is based on performance, other times on price and, these days, on availability (by country).  There really isn't just a single correct answer.  Multiple competing answers is a blessing, not a curse.

 

Online Bud

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2022, 06:11:37 am »
Maybe you should go over to the IEEE and find out what the membership actually is!!! It's composed of young students, undergraduates, graduate, post grads & professors alike, everyone is welcome, no degrees required!! However, they do demand a high level of credibility in papers that get published.
And to earn that credibility people publish same shit over and over and over again, with a few words changed. So they can put "made x publications" in their profile.
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2022, 06:39:04 am »
FWIW, I don't like either of the Stack (Overflow or Exchange) sites I have run across.  The 'leaders' are rude and condescending, something that doesn't happen around here very often.  One thing I see over and over on the Stack... sites:  "This question has been answered!"  Of course it was 5 years ago and doesn't show up in a search because, well, search terms don't quite match.  I don't waste my time on either site.

The nice thing about eevBlog is that the threads tend to wander around a bit before coalescing.

These sites are fundamentally different. Stack Overflow/Exchange are question-answer services run by peers. EEVBlog forum is a discussion forum. It's a nice, even desirable side effect if the OP gets a straight answer to their exact question, but it's not the primary point.

For the same reason, it's OK to post about something even if something very similar was discussed 2 years ago. We get totally different viewpoints as time goes by.
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2022, 06:50:31 am »
But beginners don't need help from just extreme experts. Many people can help them. Typically their questions are actually rather simple

No no no! This sounds very agreeable and logical, but actually you are wrong!

Fundamental beginner questions require pretty high level of expertise to answer. Teaching is difficult.

This is also why I have been hired, year after year, as an outside helper, on a university class where we build and measure buck converters. There are no experienced enough, free, available resources inside! Even though everyone is a total beginner, constructing their first DC/DC converter ever and driving the gate with an FG, they will, in this simple exercise, face all interesting details like gate charge plateau, low-frequency sinusoidal oscillation in DCM when the SW goes hi-Z, slowly drifting spikes on their scope screens coupled from their neighbors, etc., etc. The teacher can't say "I don't know what this is".

I can totally see in the beginner section the problem caused by total crap answers by well-meaning people, who were just beginners themselves but think they are now on a bit higher beginner level and can start helping others. Or even true professionals who think helping beginners is so trivial they don't need to spend any effort on it.

One professor I kinda respect did say it well, the difference between average professor and a world-class expert is, the expert actually knows the 101 basics of their field. Well enough to be able to teach it!

Besides, beginner questions can be extremely difficult because they haven't learned the abstractions yet. They may ask "what is voltage on a physical level" or "how a transistor works". Things like that, most "practical engineers" struggle with.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 06:52:41 am by Siwastaja »
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2022, 09:21:45 am »
FWIW, I don't like either of the Stack (Overflow or Exchange) sites I have run across.  The 'leaders' are rude and condescending, something that doesn't happen around here very often.  One thing I see over and over on the Stack... sites:  "This question has been answered!"  Of course it was 5 years ago and doesn't show up in a search because, well, search terms don't quite match.  I don't waste my time on either site.

The nice thing about eevBlog is that the threads tend to wander around a bit before coalescing.

These sites are fundamentally different. Stack Overflow/Exchange are question-answer services run by peers. EEVBlog forum is a discussion forum. It's a nice, even desirable side effect if the OP gets a straight answer to their exact question, but it's not the primary point.

For the same reason, it's OK to post about something even if something very similar was discussed 2 years ago. We get totally different viewpoints as time goes by.

All those points should be written large, and not forgotten!

Stack exchange is OK-ish to get an answer to "which button do I press to cause the floggle to trepusculate?" type questions, where little understanding is required.

This site is popular because people can have a to-and-fro discussion about subtle topics where there are different equally valid opinions. That helps people to work out the right question to ask - which is much more difficult than simply answering it.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2022, 10:57:42 am »
But beginners don't need help from just extreme experts. Many people can help them. Typically their questions are actually rather simple

No no no! This sounds very agreeable and logical, but actually you are wrong!

Fundamental beginner questions require pretty high level of expertise to answer. Teaching is difficult.

This is also why I have been hired, year after year, as an outside helper, on a university class where we build and measure buck converters.

I agree, what I wrote there was, at least partially wrong. I had noticed an issue, when I read it back, but (incorrectly) thought it covered the wrong aspect, but it didn't adequately do that.

I wanted to rewrite it, to be something like:
"Most of the time (90%), an expert in the applicable field, is NOT needed to answer the question".

But there are still two major issues outstanding, even with the corrected version.

Firstly, a beginner, can't tell when it is the 10% of the time, when a real expert is needed. Causing practical difficulties.
Secondly, if the beginner has done a really, really good job of researching the answer themselves. E.g. They triple checked the wiring for mistakes. They tried swapping some things. They did some initial googling for an answer. Etc.
They can potentially increase the need for a true expert, to perhaps 80% or 90% of the time.

The percentages I have stated, are extremely rough estimates, and I have no problem, with them being, even wildly wrong.

In summary, I agree with you. A number of issues a beginner has, may indeed need a real expert. It wouldn't be obvious at all to the beginner, when it is a simple/quick question for anyone, including people with partial electronics knowledge/experience, and when it really needs an advanced specialist in the appropriate field(s).

If/when someone reaches a very high expert/experience level in a particular field. They sometimes comment on how extremely frightening it is, with how many things are just NOT known, at the current time. E.g. Although there are solutions to many illnesses, with medicine X, being well known to usually fully treat illness Y. It is only when one learns extensively about illness Y, that it turns out, very little is actually known as to what really causes illness Y, why it causes the symptoms it does and how to properly fix illness Y, or even how/why medicine X actually works.

Fortunately, much of electronics is understood. Yet if you go into extreme detail with the Physics, of what is really going on. It can move into areas of Physics, that don't really know why or how, the (e.g. Quantum) stuff actually works.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 11:16:33 am by MK14 »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2022, 11:14:11 am »
How about showing number of unique users who "thanked", in particular topic.
 
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Offline emece67

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2022, 11:33:05 am »
.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 05:13:54 pm by emece67 »
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #100 on: February 16, 2022, 11:38:34 am »
This has got me curious about who suggested the idea to Dave - to the extent that he felt it worth taking a sounding.  :-\

Unless I've missed one, I don't think anyone in the 'I like it' vote category has posted anything yet.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #101 on: February 16, 2022, 11:38:37 am »
Interesting discussion of the “Expert” on a forum topic…..

https://metatalk.metafilter.com/18297/From-the-Latin-ex-a-hasbeen-and-spurt-a-drip-under-pressure

Fraser
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #102 on: February 16, 2022, 11:46:41 am »
Interesting discussion of the “Expert” on a forum topic…..

https://metatalk.metafilter.com/18297/From-the-Latin-ex-a-hasbeen-and-spurt-a-drip-under-pressure

Fraser

A good point about 'Experts' feeling under pressure to answer questions [Edit: and the associated follow-ups], whatever the time of day.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #103 on: February 16, 2022, 11:51:30 am »
I think the beginners are just fine.  We are designing a solution waiting for a problem.  But if it were to have ranks, I'd like to be something epic, like this:



My favorite is Gimli!   :)
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2022, 11:53:42 am »
Any beginner or student looking for The Truth on internet forums must be redirected to reliable sources.

I thought that, but forgot to include it in my earlier posts. That is a good argument (in my mind), as to why this 'experts' idea, may not be suitable for this forum. Because it is NOT an official source of correct/good, highly accurate information. Unlike a Book, decent journal, datasheet, University etc.

The problem/thing is. If a small percentage of us (users), are given the title OFFICIAL EXPERT. Perhaps only in some sub-forums or topics. Such as Audi Expert, etc.
Then (perhaps just speaking for myself), it would be extremely off putting, to ever reply to any thread. Because we wouldn't have (for most of us), that EXPERT label, and could easily have our answers, contradicted, when/if the actual expert label holder(s), posting in the thread.

I.e. It could seriously damage the functioning of the forum. Because if lots of posters are completely put off from ever posting (answers). The forum might (at least in some respects) go downhill, fast.

It is a bit like the job adverts, which put so much detailed requirements, that it is unlikely that any real person exists, who could fulfill all of them.

E.g.
>Have at least 30 years Electronics Expert Knowledge, working in our specialist field
>Be less than 25 years old
>Have at least 30 years computer/Programming experience, full time
>Graduated from University, within last 5 years, so academic knowledge is still modern/useful
>Never worked for any competitor, ever
>Happy to work for legal minimum wage
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2022, 12:05:26 pm »
Put a "Thanked" counter next to the "Posts" counter.
If you absolutely must do something.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #106 on: February 16, 2022, 12:12:48 pm »
Put a "Thanked" counter next to the "Posts" counter.
If you absolutely must do something.
I don't think that is a good idea; it has no statistical relevance. Either as an absolute or relative number. The more people post, the more they get thanked. On top of that there is the echo-chamber effect. Some thank when people agree even though what is written is questionable.

Just see a thanks as nodding your head you agree. IIRC thanking was originally added to get rid of 'I agree posts' that added nothing to the discussion.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 12:15:47 pm by nctnico »
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Offline m k

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #107 on: February 16, 2022, 12:19:00 pm »
The basic problem is always those who are expressing themselves for what ever other reason than massages in hand.
Unfortunately they also have many times the possibility and stamina to be a volume.
Eventually they will also flood the place, SNR is very important but so is the mood of it.

You're also always limited with only few options.

Howabout a dotted line where one dot is one area and its level is being dynamic.
A dot, small and big letter, underline, overstrike and bold, quite many levels.
What letters, Analog, Digital, Metrology, Power, Other, AP, DM.
Maybe large enough group of elders enabling/disabling those.
So all it needs is a user statistics for elders view.

BTW,
I'm usually browsing offline and didn't mind losing one yellow square.
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Online Fraser

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2022, 12:20:21 pm »
I thought I would add my own personal view of contributors to forum posts.

There are specialists (I prefer that term to “Experts”) in a particular topic who may have very insightful comment on their specialist topic and this is to be welcomed on any forum that is fortunate enough to have such membership. That said, some specialists know their topic but are not always great at instructing or helping others in a way that may be easily understood by ‘mere mortals’. I have also met some very clever scientists who are specialists in their chosen field, BUT they lack real world experience and sometimes, even common sense ! This forum has an excellent compliment of members with specialist knowledge who are willing to help others by sharing their knowledge. We are indeed fortunate :)

There are forum members, such as myself, who do not consider themselves “Experts” in any particular field, even if we possess specialist knowledge of very narrow topics. I was repairing electronics at age 7 and went on to be trained as a Merchant Marine Radio Officer before joining an employer who needed my particular set of skills for land based activities. That employer provided me with a broad range of specialist skills that have enabled me to help others over a broad spectrum of topics….I do not consider myself an Expert in those topics however and do not like the term anyway ! I am a technical officer with a broad range of formally trained knowledge who  is a specialist in a few, well defined, topics. So how would I be categorised under the “Expert” system ?

There are forum members who are still learning and absorbing knowledge as they study in educational establishments or in work place apprenticeships. They may have questions on all manner of topics but they may equally have good, modern, knowledge of certain fields within this forums coverage. They may not be an “Expert” but they have much to contribute and should not feel that they should not because an “Expert” will answer a question. Answering questions can carry risk…. a person may be wary of providing input to a topic if they are concerned about being challenged by an “Expert”. On other forums there are some pretty obnoxious “Experts” who sometimes believe that they are Gods in their realm and cannot tolerate any alternative viewpoints. Thankfully I see no such behaviour on this forum, at least in the areas of it that I frequent. Basically, just because a person is not an expert, it does not mean that the Experts view is the only one that matters. For a newbie, it is sometimes important that a fellow newbie shares their personal experience or knowledge as that may be at a level that can be easily understood. ‘Team working’ amongst techs to solve a problem, even via a forum, can generate good questions and equally good answers along the way. If an “Expert” just gives the answer on ‘day 1’, a learning opportunity may be lost. As has been said before….it is not always the result that matters, it can be how you got there that matters most.

Public forums contain a vast array of knowledge repositories in the form of its memberships brains. It is good to receive a broad spectrum of responses to a question, even if incorrect !, as discussion follows and many people learn from the original question. A good discussion will result in the best possible full answer to the question that has effectively been peer reviewed by the forum membership. Even “Experts” can be wrong sometimes ! Giving them an “Expert” badge can provide undeserved ‘never wrong’ status to some knowledgeable forum members.

Then we get to the forum members who may be somewhat less helpful to those asking questions. At the least harmful level there are those who are self declared “experts” who just possess decent Google-Fu but do not possess the essential knowledge to spot when Google searches result in incorrect, or darn right misleading, information. They then present that erroneous data to a person on the forum. That recipient might take that information as from an “Expert”, so uses it without question. Not a great idea and people need to do their own checks and balances on answers provided via forums, Google searches and Wiki pages. As we know…. Just because it’s on the internet does not mean that it is true or accurate. There are also those who frequent forums who have a little knowledge and are dangerous ! They may claim “Expert” knowledge of a topic yet be misguided or malicious ….. Flat Earthers ?  ;D Thankfully such persons are normally spotted pretty quickly and may be ignored or banned, if malicious.

In life there are many people with greatly varying levels of knowledge and expertise who come into our Orbits. They have much to offer and often enjoy the interaction on forums such as this great platform. It would be a pity to do anything that potentially made these forum members contributions appear less valuable than the opinion of an “Expert”.

As I have alluded to earlier…. I have worked with some really clever “experts” in their particular specialist field who I would not trust to tie their own shoe laces, let alone give me any advice on a topic that did not sit dead centre of their specialist field of knowledge  ;D

This forum is filled with members who possess “Specialist” knowledge, even if they do not have a particular Degree or Certificate to say so.

I do not feel the need for an “Expert” badge system on this forum. To me it has the looks of creating an ‘Elite’ membership and is a real can of worms. Where you have an “Expert” status, there will always be the challenge of determining who gets that status and whether the Status may be challenged or revoked. A bit like being a GP or Lawyer ….. you are answerable for your mistakes and can be ‘removed’ for negligence  ;D

Me? … I know a little about a lot, and and a lot about a little  :-+

Fraser


« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 03:12:45 pm by Fraser »
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #109 on: February 16, 2022, 12:21:01 pm »
Put a "Thanked" counter next to the "Posts" counter.
If you absolutely must do something.

Agreed on the "If you absolutely must do something".
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline daqq

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #110 on: February 16, 2022, 12:30:48 pm »
I can see a lot of fighting on what constitutes "an expert".
If we had an expert on what an expert is we wouldn't be having this problem.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #111 on: February 16, 2022, 12:45:40 pm »
If we are a free and open public electronics forum. Then everyone must be free to post, in all areas (with obvious exceptions, such as banned or spam posters).

You can't have it both ways. Either it is casual/free/open, for anyone to post, or it isn't.

Once we start having designated experts, or highlighted special/best posters and so on. We begin to lose our "Free and open" status.

There are half-way house solutions. But they still move away from being a free and open environment.
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #112 on: February 16, 2022, 12:46:12 pm »
I can see a lot of fighting on what constitutes "an expert".
If we had an expert on what an expert is we wouldn't be having this problem.

Seriously though, I suspect we have very few social engineers here -- who would be best suited to anticipate the concerns and issues aired above.  Social and psychological behaviors are surprisingly unintuitive and difficult to predict; even if we had come up with seemingly workable ideas, it's really hard to say how well they would work out in practice.

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Offline Zero999

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #113 on: February 16, 2022, 12:46:40 pm »
- The most important counter argument is that science does not work by voting.  Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think.  Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.
(..)

That would be funny if science would resolve itself by voting....  ::)
Actually it kind of is. Science is truth by consensus.
No it's not. A consensus on a theory doesn't always mean it's right. The astronomer Galileo was proof of that. In the last two years, there are plenty of things which were believed to be correct, by a large number of scientists, yet are now widely contested.

Quote
Which circles back to my view that a system where people are labelled as expert on a forum leads to opinions getting more weight added to them. But who is going to guarantee that these opinions are 'right'? Also, some people are better (like politicians) at phrasing their opinions than others.

The way I see it, a forum is a place where you go looking for informed opinions on a subject and share information to have debates. If you look for information, find literature (Wikipedia is often a good place to start) and read that.
The only way to establish the truth is to look at the evidence available, but that's often subject to manipulation.
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #114 on: February 16, 2022, 12:56:54 pm »
- The most important counter argument is that science does not work by voting.  Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think.  Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.
(..)

That would be funny if science would resolve itself by voting....  ::)
Actually it kind of is. Science is truth by consensus.
No it's not. A consensus on a theory doesn't always mean it's right. The astronomer Galileo was proof of that. In the last two years, there are plenty of things which were believed to be correct, by a large number of scientists, yet are now widely contested.

Quote
Which circles back to my view that a system where people are labelled as expert on a forum leads to opinions getting more weight added to them. But who is going to guarantee that these opinions are 'right'? Also, some people are better (like politicians) at phrasing their opinions than others.

The way I see it, a forum is a place where you go looking for informed opinions on a subject and share information to have debates. If you look for information, find literature (Wikipedia is often a good place to start) and read that.
The only way to establish the truth is to look at the evidence available, but that's often subject to manipulation.

I don't think expert is suppose to mean that every single statement they issue is going to be 100% right, all of the time. It is just that an expert is more likely to give the correct answer, and less likely to give the wrong answer, NOT that an expert is going to give the correct answer all the time.

If a company boss/owner, has made a successful company, that has grown and grown. It doesn't mean that every decision they have made was/is 100% perfect. Just that enough of them on average, were good enough to eventually make a good and successful company, and none of the mistakes were bad enough to prematurely end the company, so far.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 01:00:29 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #115 on: February 16, 2022, 12:58:36 pm »
I wonder how many of you have the stones to actually mentor someone?

I have a number in my mind. I'll bet you can't change my mind.

Go into the beginners section, find somebody with only a few posts and recognize that they are now where you once were and help them find the next step.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #116 on: February 16, 2022, 01:08:52 pm »
I now know, looking back into my early days of electronics. That some/many of the projects in electronics magazines (from a long time ago), were in a number of cases. Not especially hicle well designed. In some cases they wouldn't even work. In others, some parts of the design were, let's say questionable.
But that hasn't stopped many people from progressing through their electronics hobby and/or University/similar and/or electronics career paths, with, in some cases great success.

When I was first learning electronics I was a kid, and I had several friends who were also kids with a similar interest. I can remember some of the misconceptions that we passed from one to another for lack of any useful mentors or instruction to set us right again. You see the same phenomenon with young 'gentlemen' and motor vehicles, the folk knowledge that gets passed around on vehicle performance and physics is excruciatingly wrong, and I suspect our electronics faux pas were just as painful to observe if you knew what you were talking about.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #117 on: February 16, 2022, 01:16:41 pm »
Until both of you can agree on such lofty philosophy, you can at least agree that you know how a transistor works or even a 555. I'm saying put your energy into helping people understand that. Fill the gaps.

 :)
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #118 on: February 16, 2022, 01:27:17 pm »
How about showing number of unique users who "thanked", in particular topic.

Speaking as the 4th ranked "most thanked" user on the forum I have to tell you that would be misleading.  :) All it tells me is that I'm not too out of step with the milieu here, and I make people laugh occasionally.

If we were to use any kind of "thanked" rating it'd need a different button "Mark as useful technical answer" or somesuch as the current "thank" button serves as many things: "nod of head in agreement", "this made me laugh", "that post agrees with my political views", "that fella isn't as much of an arse as the man he's arguing with" etc. etc.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #119 on: February 16, 2022, 01:29:53 pm »
Until both of you can agree on such lofty philosophy, you can at least agree that you know how a transistor works or even a 555. I'm saying put your energy into helping people understand that. Fill the gaps.

 :)

Not everyone, has the patience, inclination and other factors. To help beginners. For example, some people are happy to supply quick 1 or 2 line answers, to help them continue their experiments/learning/projects. But don't necessarily have enough patience, to put the time in, to help them further.

E.g. Your electrolytic capacitor, probably exploded because you put it in the wrong way round. Please carefully check the polarity next time. Which way round they are inserted, does matter.

Rather than a detailed technical explanation as to why electrolytic capacitors have polarities, are often used despite their many weaknesses, and tips on how to reduce the likelihood of such mistakes in future.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 01:31:49 pm by MK14 »
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #120 on: February 16, 2022, 01:34:16 pm »
How about showing number of unique users who "thanked", in particular topic.
Speaking as the 4th ranked "most thanked" user on the forum

Which is totally, 100% your extreme dedication to helping people on the beginners forum. And absolutely nothing to do with your participation on any other threads, whatsoever, such as the Tea thread.

For those that don't know. They seem to throw huge numbers of 'thanks' in that thread.
Example:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4005397/#msg4005397

Quote
2nd display back among the living.
The following users thanked this post: Robert763, Brumby, mnementh, Specmaster, mansaxel, cyclin_al

So, one thank per word.    :-DD
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 01:40:32 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #121 on: February 16, 2022, 01:38:36 pm »
Until both of you can agree on such lofty philosophy, you can at least agree that you know how a transistor works or even a 555. I'm saying put your energy into helping people understand that. Fill the gaps.

 :)

Not everyone, has the patience, inclination and other factors. To help beginners. For example, some people are happy to supply quick 1 or 2 line answers, to help them continue their experiments/learning/projects. But don't necessarily have enough patience, to put the time in, to help them further.

E.g. Your electrolytic capacitor, probably exploded because you put it in the wrong way round. Please carefully check the polarity next time. Which way round they are inserted, does matter.

Rather than a detailed technical explanation as to why electrolytic capacitors have polarities, are often used despite their many weaknesses, and tips on how to reduce the likelihood of such mistakes in future.

Yep. I agree. So maybe we do need to elect an individual who is prepared to work the beat, so to speak.

Just going by the dick waving in the thread (not you), I'm starting to think that Dave is right. The forum could use a person assigned to the task. But how do we keep the dicks out of a walled garden?
iratus parum formica
 
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Offline Carel

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #122 on: February 16, 2022, 01:48:27 pm »
Wouldn't it be nice to get more feedback from topicstarters? And look how to encourage this? Without results an experts opinion is just an opinion, which it is for starters. considering the handicap of written words in other languages and the physical separation problem.

A problem can have many layers and the solutions can vary from hammers to Nobel prize nomination mathematics,

Personally I can't solve a problem without having a reasonable deep understanding of it, so I rarely pose a question. The moment I think: let's start a topic, I am near to a solution.

I think I am afraid of the rumbling rantings of experts, who give lengthy answers, with only a narrow connection to the question.

To put it sarcastically: It always amazes me how much Jumbo-jet pilots are active on the internet. They must have an incredible amount of free time.



 

Online tautech

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #123 on: February 16, 2022, 01:49:15 pm »
Until both of you can agree on such lofty philosophy, you can at least agree that you know how a transistor works or even a 555. I'm saying put your energy into helping people understand that. Fill the gaps.

 :)

Not everyone, has the patience, inclination and other factors. To help beginners. For example, some people are happy to supply quick 1 or 2 line answers, to help them continue their experiments/learning/projects. But don't necessarily have enough patience, to put the time in, to help them further.

E.g. Your electrolytic capacitor, probably exploded because you put it in the wrong way round. Please carefully check the polarity next time. Which way round they are inserted, does matter.

Rather than a detailed technical explanation as to why electrolytic capacitors have polarities, are often used despite their many weaknesses, and tips on how to reduce the likelihood of such mistakes in future.

Yep. I agree. So maybe we do need to elect an individual who is prepared to work the beat, so to speak.

Just going by the dick waving in the thread (not you), I'm starting to think that Dave is right. The forum could use a person assigned to the task. But how do we keep the dicks out of a walled garden?
Don't build it in the first instance.  :P

No place like this is perfect but EEVblog is generally head and shoulders above the rest of the bunch.

A few years back I thought I'd better go and see what help I could be at AAC and posted some scope screenshots in a reply to help a member only to have the post vanish as mods thought it was advertising as the scopes brand was plainly visible in the screenshot.  ::) I mean how outta touch are these plonkers so I engaged with them and all of a sudden all mods were copied in and we had quite a civil conversation and of course I was open about our allegiance and the wish to primarily provide support.
But even funnier was to come as they offered me a mods position which I immediately declined and explained their membership would see that as putting the fox in charge of the hen house.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #124 on: February 16, 2022, 01:50:03 pm »
How about showing number of unique users who "thanked", in particular topic.

Speaking as the 4th ranked "most thanked" user on the forum I have to tell you that would be misleading.  :) All it tells me is that I'm not too out of step with the milieu here, and I make people laugh occasionally.

If we were to use any kind of "thanked" rating it'd need a different button "Mark as useful technical answer" or somesuch as the current "thank" button serves as many things: "nod of head in agreement", "this made me laugh", "that post agrees with my political views", "that fella isn't as much of an arse as the man he's arguing with" etc. etc.
Unfortunately the thanks button gets abused. I wonder how many people in the top 10 thanked users list, only got there because they made loads of replies to treez's/Faringdon's threads? |O
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #125 on: February 16, 2022, 02:02:41 pm »
- The most important counter argument is that science does not work by voting.  Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think.  Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.
(..)

That would be funny if science would resolve itself by voting....  ::)
Actually it kind of is. Science is truth by consensus.
No it's not. A consensus on a theory doesn't always mean it's right. The astronomer Galileo was proof of that. In the last two years, there are plenty of things which were believed to be correct, by a large number of scientists, yet are now widely contested.
-off topic-
And how it that not truth by consensus?  ;)

Truth by consensus means that a previously proven theory is regarded as being true until someone comes along and proves (by using new/better methods and insights) it is not. That is how science works and always has worked for centuries. In hindsight it is easy to say 'look, those idiots where wrong all that time' but that is just hindsight. And then there are cases where it is better to be cautious and accept a safe theory that is not fully proven / disproven yet.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 02:05:22 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #126 on: February 16, 2022, 02:05:12 pm »
How about showing number of unique users who "thanked", in particular topic.

Speaking as the 4th ranked "most thanked" user on the forum I have to tell you that would be misleading.  :) All it tells me is that I'm not too out of step with the milieu here, and I make people laugh occasionally.

If we were to use any kind of "thanked" rating it'd need a different button "Mark as useful technical answer" or somesuch as the current "thank" button serves as many things: "nod of head in agreement", "this made me laugh", "that post agrees with my political views", "that fella isn't as much of an arse as the man he's arguing with" etc. etc.
Unfortunately the thanks button gets abused. I wonder how many people in the top 10 thanked users list, only got there because they made loads of replies to treez's/Faringdon's threads? |O
How is it he's even still here ?  :-//
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #127 on: February 16, 2022, 02:10:08 pm »
Those thanks mean nothing. I just thanked Tautech's post. But why?

Was is because I liked the information in the post?
Was it because I like him?
Was it because I clicked the "thanks' by accident?
Was it to prove that "thanks" mean nothing?
Was it because of some other reason?

I'm not going to say, and you cannot derive the reason either.
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #128 on: February 16, 2022, 02:10:19 pm »
Until both of you can agree on such lofty philosophy, you can at least agree that you know how a transistor works or even a 555. I'm saying put your energy into helping people understand that. Fill the gaps.

 :)

Not everyone, has the patience, inclination and other factors. To help beginners. For example, some people are happy to supply quick 1 or 2 line answers, to help them continue their experiments/learning/projects. But don't necessarily have enough patience, to put the time in, to help them further.

E.g. Your electrolytic capacitor, probably exploded because you put it in the wrong way round. Please carefully check the polarity next time. Which way round they are inserted, does matter.

Rather than a detailed technical explanation as to why electrolytic capacitors have polarities, are often used despite their many weaknesses, and tips on how to reduce the likelihood of such mistakes in future.

Yep. I agree. So maybe we do need to elect an individual who is prepared to work the beat, so to speak.

Just going by the dick waving in the thread (not you), I'm starting to think that Dave is right. The forum could use a person assigned to the task. But how do we keep the dicks out of a walled garden?
Don't build it in the first instance.  :P

No place like this is perfect but EEVblog is generally head and shoulders above the rest of the bunch.

A few years back I thought I'd better go and see what help I could be at AAC and posted some scope screenshots in a reply to help a member only to have the post vanish as mods thought it was advertising as the scopes brand was plainly visible in the screenshot.  ::) I mean how outta touch are these plonkers so I engaged with them and all of a sudden all mods were copied in and we had quite a civil conversation and of course I was open about our allegiance and the wish to primarily provide support.
But even funnier was to come as they offered me a mods position which I immediately declined and explained their membership would see that as putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

A bigger question I have for you is why aren't you in bed?  ;)

No sane person accepts a mod position. I understand that.

What I am proposing is perhaps an enthusiastic intermediate instead of a jaded 'expert'.

I posted the 'expert' video on an earlier page for shits and giggles. I have in my professional capacity assumed nearly all of those roles and quietly chuckled to myself the whole time. I'm suggesting, as an expert ;) , that the forum is ready to take this next step.

The problem is that the chosen person needs protection from 'experts' with a bad attitude. It needs to be understood that an intermediary is there to encourage beginners and reinforce their own understanding without the fear of being publicly humiliated.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #129 on: February 16, 2022, 02:16:52 pm »
Each user can see who thanked him (it is nice to know who are one's friends, isn't it?  :) ), but statistics about thanked/found-useful posts for each user are not public.

Yes they are, but as usual the SMF user interface is less than helpful in guiding you to find them. Summary statistics are hidden at the bottom of the forum index page, and you can see any users 'thanked' count by looking them up in the members list.

You have been thanked on average 0.27 times per post whereas I have been thanked on average 0.77 times per post. That to my mind conclusively proves that any metric based around thanks is worthless because while I like to hope I'm a useful contributor from time to time I most certainly don't think I'm the über contributor that statistic would seem to imply.

There's also the issue you allude to but don't express directly: "Any metric once created will be gamed". Someone will play in such a way as to inflate the metric rather than to behave in the way the metric was supposed to measure positively for, wasting time trying to bolster the metric rather than doing something useful to produce the outcome the metric was intended to measure. I don't think anybody is currently gaming the thanks statistics, but if they were given prominence they would almost certainly become "gamed".

If anyone needs any more convincing that "Thanks" as is currently implemented is a useless metric, here it is. This is the top 10 most thanked people, as spat out by SMFs stats. I've added number of posts and calculated a "Thanks per post" ratio as a percentage.
User       ThankedPostsThanks to post ratio
med6753    1063410178104.48%
bd139      1040420506 50.74%
EEVblog    860033942 25.34%
Cerebus    7288 9403 77.51%
mnementh    604515133 39.95%
tautech    492623059 21.36%
james_s    440416959 25.97%
BU508A      4012 3803105.50%
T3sl4co1l  368018610 19.77%
tggzzz      353114611 24.17%

Note how that puts Tim (T3sl4co1l) at the bottom of the ranking by "Thanks per post", one of the most useful contributors (arguably the most useful) on the forum and Mounty (BU508A) at the top, who while being a sterling chap, and very generous to boot, isn't in Tim's league (Sorry Mounty). (Note, these are only the top 10 thanked, so the ranking on the ratio of thanks per post is only out of these 10 posters, not the whole forum.)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #130 on: February 16, 2022, 02:17:11 pm »
(didn't read all interactions here)

IME badges are a terrible idea. Among other factors, the excellent linked post by Fraser reflects my experience as well:

here's a sense in which knowing there's an expert in something sort of subtly reduces the value of everyone else's contributions because people wait for the expert to show up.

Also, the other topics such as what constitutes an expert, how broad on the subject one could be still considered one, etc. are very valid.

People give their time for free and having an added pressure of a badge can be detrimental to the contributions of someone that is unable to dedicate the proper time for full fledged answers at all times. This can be overcome in part by pre-canned answers to questions or something that AAC currently has, which are several concise articles that can easily be leveraged on their platform (I have used them myself many times to give posters some technical context and background).

Also, some of the experts may simply give short replies with further questions to narrow the problem at hand - after all, it is not infrequent the number of people that ask something and simply vanish (retiredcaps and I had an exchange about that many years ago).
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #131 on: February 16, 2022, 02:21:50 pm »


If anyone needs any more convincing that "Thanks" as is currently implemented is a useless metric, here it is.

Not wishing to cherry-pick your post but we might like to see the breakdown of thanks in the beginners threads rather than entire forum.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #132 on: February 16, 2022, 02:24:35 pm »
Put a "Thanked" counter next to the "Posts" counter.
If you absolutely must do something.
I don't think that is a good idea; it has no statistical relevance. Either as an absolute or relative number. The more people post, the more they get thanked. On top of that there is the echo-chamber effect. Some thank when people agree even though what is written is questionable.

Just see a thanks as nodding your head you agree. IIRC thanking was originally added to get rid of 'I agree posts' that added nothing to the discussion.

To quote Mandy Rice-Davis: "Well he [nctnico, thanked ratio 12%] would say that, wouldn't he."


Cerebus [Thanked ratio 77%]  :-DD

(Yes I am kidding, I think the thanked ratio is wildly misleading)
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #133 on: February 16, 2022, 02:26:53 pm »
A bigger question I have for you is why aren't you in bed?  ;)
And you have the perfect bladder ?

Quote
What I am proposing is perhaps an enthusiastic intermediate instead of a jaded 'expert'.

I posted the 'expert' video on an earlier page for shits and giggles. I have in my professional capacity assumed nearly all of those roles and quietly chuckled to myself the whole time. I'm suggesting, as an expert ;) , that the forum is ready to take this next step.

The problem is that the chosen person needs protection from 'experts' with a bad attitude. It needs to be understood that an intermediary is there to encourage beginners and reinforce their own understanding without the fear of being publicly humiliated.

Instead I believe the senior and capable members could use their forum profiles to better effect. It takes just a minute to change them and display your wished online status as I do when I go on annual fishing trips with the cuz.

There's no reason not to display your chosen skillset without a forum based one being foisted on you which as I have mentioned before might invite a plague of PM's seeking advice. Yes I get a few and if it gets outta hand one can easily modify your profile or signature unlike any title that you might be given.
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Offline Carel

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #134 on: February 16, 2022, 02:28:12 pm »
Just to put things in a perspective:

I looked it up in my statistics: 48 posts, 96 thanks, which makes me with a 200% score a very succesfull expert.

With my cat photo's.
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #135 on: February 16, 2022, 02:29:30 pm »
Cerebus [Thanked ratio 77%]  :-DD

As I explained in an earlier post. It seems to be because you post a picture of e.g. a broom, in the tea thread. Then get 5 thanks for it.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3999280/#msg3999280

So, the tea thread seems to have put various users into the top of the most thanked lists. Rather than the merit of being most helpful members on this forum.

But of course you still could be the most helpful member here, as well.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #136 on: February 16, 2022, 02:30:58 pm »
Put a "Thanked" counter next to the "Posts" counter.
If you absolutely must do something.

Agreed on the "If you absolutely must do something".

I disagree, I think that the thanked figure is misleading and deserves to get no more prominence than it already has.

And I must be right, and you wrong, because your thanked ratio is only 28% but mine is 77%.  :-DD

OK, I can probably stop now. I hope that I've provided enough evidence that the thanked figures are not necessarily a helpful guide.
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Offline magic

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #137 on: February 16, 2022, 02:34:24 pm »
Just to put things in a perspective:

I looked it up in my statistics: 48 posts, 96 thanks, which makes me with a 200% score a very succesfull expert.

With my cat photo's.
You win :-DD
I was about to ask if anyone can beat Noopy's 116%.

I see a trend here.
 

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #138 on: February 16, 2022, 02:36:15 pm »
Put a "Thanked" counter next to the "Posts" counter.
If you absolutely must do something.

Agreed on the "If you absolutely must do something".

I disagree, I think that the thanked figure is misleading and deserves to get no more prominence than it already has.

And I must be right, and you wrong, because your thanked ratio is only 28% but mine is 77%.  :-DD

OK, I can probably stop now. I hope that I've provided enough evidence that the thanked figures are not necessarily a helpful guide.
Yes although they're easily found by clicking on a members profile which provides access to their thanked posts where you can further research why they were thanked. SMF makes doing your homework on a member dead easy and in my view is more useful that bestowing titles on members.
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #139 on: February 16, 2022, 02:36:24 pm »
A bigger question I have for you is why aren't you in bed?  ;)
And you have the perfect bladder ?

I piss in your general direction.  ;D
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Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #140 on: February 16, 2022, 02:40:40 pm »
IMHO a system where you self declare yourself an expert would be ideal with a Badge against their name to identify them... and then I could safely ignore their comments.

Actually... self declaration of expert status... sounds very 2022... the world really has gone mad.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #141 on: February 16, 2022, 02:42:10 pm »
Cerebus [Thanked ratio 77%]  :-DD

As I explained in an earlier post. It seems to be because you post a picture of e.g. a broom, in the tea thread. Then get 5 thanks for it.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg3999280/#msg3999280

So, the tea thread seems to have put various users into the top of the most thanked lists. Rather than the merit of being most helpful members on this forum.

But of course you still could be the most helpful member here, as well.

Hey, give a chance, I'm trying to catch up here. I wasn't going to go off on a meta analysis of why the thanked ratio is what it is, just trying to point up that it's a useless metric as it stands, which I'd kind of hoped was obvious by using myself as a contra-example of its usefulness rather than picking on some other hapless soul and going "Look he has a high thanked ratio but he's a complete dick!".
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #142 on: February 16, 2022, 02:44:17 pm »
Put a "Thanked" counter next to the "Posts" counter.
If you absolutely must do something.

Agreed on the "If you absolutely must do something".

I disagree, I think that the thanked figure is misleading and deserves to get no more prominence than it already has.

And I must be right, and you wrong, because your thanked ratio is only 28% but mine is 77%.  :-DD

OK, I can probably stop now. I hope that I've provided enough evidence that the thanked figures are not necessarily a helpful guide.
Yes although they're easily found by clicking on a members profile which provides access to their thanked posts where you can further research why they were thanked. SMF makes doing your homework on a member dead easy and in my view is more useful that bestowing titles on members.

And today's "creepy stalker" prize goes to ...   :)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #143 on: February 16, 2022, 02:47:36 pm »
Hey, give a chance, I'm trying to catch up here. I wasn't going to go off on a meta analysis of why the thanked ratio is what it is, just trying to point up that it's a useless metric as it stands, which I'd kind of hoped was obvious by using myself as a contra-example of its usefulness rather than picking on some other hapless soul and going "Look he has a high thanked ratio but he's a complete dick!".

Sorry, if I poked you.

I think the 'thanking' system, has its uses, for thanking posts, without needing to pollute a thread, with constant "I agree, Thanks!!", type of posts.
But on the other hand (as you have nicely shown in this thread), calculations based on its application and total received. Are not necessarily a reliable measure of a posters merits or other aspects of a poster.
 

Offline eugene

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #144 on: February 16, 2022, 03:01:57 pm »
All of the discussion about the Thanks button highlights the idea that individual answers should be ranked instead of individual posters. Perhaps there's a better way to implement this than Thanks button? Stack Exchange allows each of us to up/down vote an answer as being useful. I don't want the karma seeking to take over this forum, but a more specific rating system of posts (vs posters) would accomplish the goal described in the OP.

Moreover, this forum is not here to cater to drive-by newbies who come here with a question and then never return. An important part of learning is distinguishing between knowledge and nonsense. The best way for us to help is by ranking individual answers. A simple up vote would be useful. Also allowing down votes invites punishment of people that we just don't like for personal reasons, so while potentially being useful might lead to more problems than it's worth.

I guess what I'm advocating is something similar to the thanks button, but more specifically says "this is a good answer." My preference would be to leave the names of the voters confidential, but even the names might have value. How about simply changing the "Thanks" button to "This answer is useful"? Wouldn't even need to redo the statistics, just change the text on the button.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #145 on: February 16, 2022, 03:20:24 pm »
I guess what I'm advocating is something similar to the thanks button, but more specifically says "this is a good answer." My preference would be to leave the names of the voters confidential, but even the names might have value. How about simply changing the "Thanks" button to "This answer is useful"? Wouldn't even need to redo the statistics, just change the text on the button.
How is that different from the current way the thanks function works? IMHO the thanks system is OK as it is.

From my experience with Stackexchange and other fora the up/downvoting system doesn't work very well. In a significant number of cases the most upvoted solution is not the best one. I usually end up going through all the solutions anyway.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #146 on: February 16, 2022, 03:38:06 pm »
Wouldn't it be nice to get more feedback from topicstarters? And look how to encourage this? Without results an experts opinion is just an opinion, which it is for starters. considering the handicap of written words in other languages and the physical separation problem.

It is disappointing when an OP doesn't post back with the results of any offered solutions.  It's actually quite rare to find out if things worked out ok.  You're never sure if you helped or the OP went somewhere else for info.  A simple "Hey, it worked!" would be nice.
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #147 on: February 16, 2022, 03:51:32 pm »
I guess what I'm advocating is something similar to the thanks button, but more specifically says "this is a good answer." My preference would be to leave the names of the voters confidential, but even the names might have value. How about simply changing the "Thanks" button to "This answer is useful"? Wouldn't even need to redo the statistics, just change the text on the button.
How is that different from the current way the thanks function works? IMHO the thanks system is OK as it is.

It's different only in that "thanks" isn't really what we want to convey with the up vote. "I agree" is closer.

Quote
From my experience with Stackexchange and other fora the up/downvoting system doesn't work very well. In a significant number of cases the most upvoted solution is not the best one. I usually end up going through all the solutions anyway.

I agree with you that not everyone that votes agrees with each other. And, we should all read through all of the answers. The votes simply convey the degree to which the community thinks an answer is valuable. Isn't that what this thread is all about?
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #148 on: February 16, 2022, 04:26:40 pm »
OMG, just checked and I've been thanked 1000 times!   ;D
(not kidding, that's the precise number, 1000 thanks)

Now, how many medals do I get for such a round number?

 
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Offline eugene

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #149 on: February 16, 2022, 04:35:59 pm »
It'll be more impressive when you get to 1024 thanks.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Offline Carel

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #150 on: February 16, 2022, 04:41:45 pm »
OMG, just checked and I've been thanked 1000 times!   ;D
(not kidding, that's the precise number, 1000 thanks)

Now, how many medals do I get for such a round number?


Dear exalted member, the photo illustrated exactly the problems our dearly beloved expert leaders face: like when to order a wider uniform, a wider and higher chair, or when finally let their inseparable underlings carry and display all their garbage.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #151 on: February 16, 2022, 05:39:39 pm »
- The most important counter argument is that science does not work by voting.  Science is not a democracy, and it is not about what people like or what people think.  Science and its derivatives, like engineering, are independent of crowd's belief.
(..)

That would be funny if science would resolve itself by voting....  ::)
Actually it kind of is. Science is truth by consensus.
No it's not. A consensus on a theory doesn't always mean it's right. The astronomer Galileo was proof of that. In the last two years, there are plenty of things which were believed to be correct, by a large number of scientists, yet are now widely contested.
-off topic-
And how it that not truth by consensus?  ;)

Truth by consensus means that a previously proven theory is regarded as being true until someone comes along and proves (by using new/better methods and insights) it is not. That is how science works and always has worked for centuries. In hindsight it is easy to say 'look, those idiots where wrong all that time' but that is just hindsight. And then there are cases where it is better to be cautious and accept a safe theory that is not fully proven / disproven yet.
There's the actual, real, objective truth and there's the consensus, which is just what the majority of people believe to be true at the time.


Each user can see who thanked him (it is nice to know who are one's friends, isn't it?  :) ), but statistics about thanked/found-useful posts for each user are not public.

Yes they are, but as usual the SMF user interface is less than helpful in guiding you to find them. Summary statistics are hidden at the bottom of the forum index page, and you can see any users 'thanked' count by looking them up in the members list.

You have been thanked on average 0.27 times per post whereas I have been thanked on average 0.77 times per post. That to my mind conclusively proves that any metric based around thanks is worthless because while I like to hope I'm a useful contributor from time to time I most certainly don't think I'm the über contributor that statistic would seem to imply.

There's also the issue you allude to but don't express directly: "Any metric once created will be gamed". Someone will play in such a way as to inflate the metric rather than to behave in the way the metric was supposed to measure positively for, wasting time trying to bolster the metric rather than doing something useful to produce the outcome the metric was intended to measure. I don't think anybody is currently gaming the thanks statistics, but if they were given prominence they would almost certainly become "gamed".

If anyone needs any more convincing that "Thanks" as is currently implemented is a useless metric, here it is. This is the top 10 most thanked people, as spat out by SMFs stats. I've added number of posts and calculated a "Thanks per post" ratio as a percentage.
User       ThankedPostsThanks to post ratio
med6753    1063410178104.48%
bd139      1040420506 50.74%
EEVblog    860033942 25.34%
Cerebus    7288 9403 77.51%
mnementh    604515133 39.95%
tautech    492623059 21.36%
james_s    440416959 25.97%
BU508A      4012 3803105.50%
T3sl4co1l  368018610 19.77%
tggzzz      353114611 24.17%
You forgot Noopy, with a thanks to post ratio of 116%, probably because nearly everyone of his posts is an interesting dieshot, which more than one person likes.

Another thing to note is the thank you button only came in around 2015, so older users who made many posts before then, will have a lower ratio, than newer ones. You'd have to factor this in to get a more accurate picture.


Quote
Note how that puts Tim (T3sl4co1l) at the bottom of the ranking by "Thanks per post", one of the most useful contributors (arguably the most useful) on the forum and Mounty (BU508A) at the top, who while being a sterling chap, and very generous to boot, isn't in Tim's league (Sorry Mounty). (Note, these are only the top 10 thanked, so the ranking on the ratio of thanks per post is only out of these 10 posters, not the whole forum.)
I agree.
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #152 on: February 16, 2022, 06:35:24 pm »
It'll be more impressive when you get to 1024 thanks.

1024?  Why?  (100 0000 0000)2 maybe, but I'm no camel with 2 toes, I have 10 fingers!

But then I realized, our base 10 system is wrong!   :o
Let me demonstrate why:

- We use Base 10 because with 10 fingers one can represent any number from 0 to 10, right?
- Let's write that down: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, correct?

- But that would need a total of 11 distinct symbols.
- Therefore our Base 10 system is wrong.

Should have been Base 11, or else said Base A!   ^-^

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #153 on: February 16, 2022, 06:41:35 pm »
Now, how many medals do I get for such a round number?

Your eyes deceive you.  Those ain't medals.  They are targets for the anti-aircraft gunners.
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #154 on: February 16, 2022, 06:43:51 pm »
It'll be more impressive when you get to 1024 thanks.

1024?  Why?  (100 0000 0000)2 maybe, but I'm no camel with 2 toes, I have 10 fingers!

But then I realized, our base 10 system is wrong!   :o
Let me demonstrate why:

- We use Base 10 because with 10 fingers one can represent any number from 0 to 10, right?
- Let's write that down: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, correct?

- But that would need a total of 11 distinct symbols.
- Therefore our Base 10 system is wrong.

Should have been Base 11, or else said Base A!   ^-^

NO!

10 Fingers = 2^10 = 1024 Thanks needed.
Or 1023, if you want to be pedantic and start from 0 Thanks.
N.B. I wouldn't jest over such a serious matter.   ;)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 06:47:51 pm by MK14 »
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #155 on: February 16, 2022, 06:51:59 pm »
I often argue with the experts, either because I want to know exactly why we disagree, or because they consider their expert status more important than providing correct information.  So no, I don't like the idea for such badges.  Besides, I'm too easy to socially manipulate – that kind of sparkly things easily lead me astray –, but cannot in good conscience really claim to be an expert on anything; definitely don't have any accredited paperwork saying so.  I really dislike the Stack Exchange voting mechanism, because it pushes most popular answers at the top, with the assumption that they are the most correct or most useful.  Yet, popularity is no indication of correctness or usefulness; only popularity.  I don't like popularity games.

What I would love to see, instead, is an Agree button.  While functionality would be the same as with the Thanks button (which I admit I often use to indicate the combination of agreement and gratitude), its use and usefulness really would be orthogonal.

In many ways, such an "X, Y, and Z agree" list at the end of the post might actually serve the need Dave is wondering about this.  Having the list of users who do actually agree would be essential for example new users to evaluate the value of such agreement, by simply clicking on the names and looking at those members most recent posts.  No better way to evaluate someones output, than actually looking at said output in its proper context (reading entire threads discussing problems).
It would be an easy, quick way for other members to show their agreement, without filling the thread with "Agreed." type of posts (which we seem to avoid).

I often find myself wanting to just show that I agree with a post, because I myself have an earlier post on some aspect of the topic at hand, and simply just agree with a later post.  Right now, I'm limited to "Thanking", or posting a silly "I agree." post, so I usually don't, unless I have additional related examples/suggestions/etc.
I'm hoping it would not be seen as a "DO THIS!" endorsement, but more like nods and agreement when discussing a problem over a coffee or other beverage among colleagues, in a poster session in an academic environment, or when helping a coworker with an annoying or problematic detail.

Of course, this has its own risks, and might not work too well either; I'm no expert.
 
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Offline alexnoot

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #156 on: February 16, 2022, 06:54:04 pm »
May I please be titled 'Expert lurker'? Or maybe 'Expert procrastinator'? Can't really decide, but it must be shiny either way...

But seriously though. I mostly lurk here, I enjoy reading all the insightful posts from other members. Having been here a while, I feel there are some users that you just recognize as 'trusted' based on what you've read from them in other posts. I don't feel like labels would help in any way in this matter. And, as mentioned by several others, who's to decide what 'expert' means, and who's worthy of such titles? Seems like a lot of work, and a lot of potential complaints.
I don't post much myself, mainly because I don't feel like I have much to contribute, and also sorting my thoughts into lines of readable text representing what I want to say often takes more effort than it should. At the time of writing this, I have 21 posts and 21 thanks (mostly from topics started by a certain you-know-who). My 1:1 ratio feels pretty worthless and undeserved in my opinion, likes thanks are often 'abused' and don't necessarily always represent good content/answers. Some users really do deserve them, but at the end of the day they're still just internet points.

Having more trust 'forced' upon me by means of expert labels would only feel more intimidating, how could my tiny opinion ever have any weight against an expert, etc? New users will need to learn for themselves who to trust and not to trust, and if they only come by for an easy answer - never to return, are they wanted as users anyway?
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #157 on: February 16, 2022, 07:07:54 pm »


10 Fingers = 2^10 = 1024 Thanks needed.

Wow, correct!  Thanks giving!
MK14, please accept a few more medals:

 
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Offline Sredni

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #158 on: February 16, 2022, 07:10:13 pm »
stackoverflow  forum does that with an alternative approach which IMHO functions very well when searching  answers for particular recurrent issues...

The FORUM RATES ANSWERS  .... instead of particular egos...
answers are voted and achieves a "mark" which otherwise function as a very good directive...

It should be  approximately the same thing where users with a high number of collected marks are obviously rated better....

better than egos.
2 cents.
Paul

This.
Just change (or maybe add, because of retrocompability problems) the "Thanks" button into a "X members think this is a good technical solution" or something like that. Not as ambiguous as a generic "thanks".
But do not add a counter in the poster's profile. And don't bother to make the names known, it will become unwieldy once users are instructed to vote for good technical answers as much as possible..
This will prevent 'point farming' and ego problems (something that can be found on Stack Exchange)

Make the answer count, not who posted it.
I may be the world's most revered expert in boiled eggs, but my casserole might suck big time.
If I serve you boiled eggs, you will reward my eggs and beginners will know my boiled eggs are good.
If I serve you a casserole, nobody will eat it ("think it is a good culinary solution") and beginners might want to try something else on the menu.


All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #159 on: February 16, 2022, 07:12:26 pm »
May I please be titled 'Expert lurker'? Or maybe 'Expert procrastinator'? Can't really decide, but it must be shiny either way...

Just for fun I went back and thanked all your posts.  Your ratio should be about 200% by now, so possibly the highest on EEVBlog. Expect a medal in the mail.   :-DD

I think of EEVBlog as a peer group.  That doesn't mean we are all the same or have the same level of expertise, but rather that the overall tone is more dialectic than help desk.  Gettiing a 'correct' answer to a specific question misses the point, although if an answer is truly needed, often one is provided.  The fact that answers may differ is not a bug, it's a feature. 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #160 on: February 16, 2022, 07:57:18 pm »
Just for fun I went back and thanked all your posts.  Your ratio should be about 200% by now, so possibly the highest on EEVBlog. Expect a medal in the mail.   :-DD

I pointed out earlier that as soon as you introduce some metric (or folks become aware of it), people will game it. Thank you for proving me right.  :-DD  :-DD
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #161 on: February 16, 2022, 08:04:13 pm »
A puzzle question, for anyone who wants to participate.

Which user, has (currently) thanked the most users ?

Clue: If you think hard about it, you can probably guess who that user is.

I don't necessarily know the correct answer, but the highest I know about, currently, is at 181 pages of thanks given to others.
 
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Offline alexnoot

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #162 on: February 16, 2022, 08:05:22 pm »
Just for fun I went back and thanked all your posts.  Your ratio should be about 200% by now, so possibly the highest on EEVBlog. Expect a medal in the mail.   :-DD

I think of EEVBlog as a peer group.  That doesn't mean we are all the same or have the same level of expertise, but rather that the overall tone is more dialectic than help desk.  Gettiing a 'correct' answer to a specific question misses the point, although if an answer is truly needed, often one is provided.  The fact that answers may differ is not a bug, it's a feature.
Medal? No, I want to exchange my shiny internet points for shiny bitcoins or something :-DD

And I do agree, there is seldom only one correct answer. The problem with experts is that they can be stuck in their way of thinking, and anyone thinking differently is in their opinion wrong.
An example for me would be in school as a kid, a teacher wants problem X solved, and I solved the problem. But it is wrong, that's not the way I taught you to solve it! But my answer is correct, and I did it this way? ...
Teaching that there is only one correct answer is obviously wrong, but the great thing about a forum is that anyone can voice their opinion equally and discuss X, Y and Z. But an expert might have a strong opinion on X as the answer and will use their 'power' to their advantage. A discussion free from labels is more beneficial in my opinion.
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #163 on: February 16, 2022, 08:23:40 pm »


That photo is a classic!  :-DD

I wonder what the guy, third from the right got his dangling medal for!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 08:26:36 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Online Bud

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #164 on: February 16, 2022, 08:34:14 pm »
Is a photo showing the back of the first row ? ::)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 08:36:39 pm by Bud »
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline Carel

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #165 on: February 16, 2022, 08:43:53 pm »

That photo is a classic!  :-DD

I wonder what the guy, third from the right got his dangling medal for!

For not pissing on the parade.
 

Offline Carel

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #166 on: February 16, 2022, 09:10:40 pm »
And not a single "jar lid" on anyone in the background. It would disturb the uniformity of the cannon fodder This is where a trend ends.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #167 on: February 16, 2022, 09:12:26 pm »
No, I want to exchange my shiny internet points for shiny bitcoins or something :-DD
Shiny bitcoins? Biny shitcoins? Binary shitcoins?  Now that is an apt term for discussion board badges and popularity score accomplishments.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #168 on: February 16, 2022, 09:16:00 pm »
I don't understand what is wrong with the existing Thanked User system here. The first one to answer with the nearest solution is marked by consensus.

It's used a bit but I guess not often enough to be really useful. No one looks every beginner thread and gives a rate unlike say StackExchange.
Maybe it's just not possible on a chat forum based system to solve this, it's just the wrong platform to even try? Horses for courses so to speak. Stack Exchange will always do it way better?

I thank people for particularly useful answers that I want to be able to search on and find again in the future if I need to see them again.

Dave, I just want to thank you for setting up eevblog and all the work you put into it. Its a huge amount of fun and Ive learned countless super useful things both here and in your videos.

Also, I realized the other day, forums like this one are very positive for promoting world peace. And making us realize that life is not a zero sum game.

We have people from all over the world and when we're here we're all trying to solve problems together, and you know we really do care about one another.  Thats a really great thing.  So again, thank you, ALL, a lot!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 09:21:29 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #169 on: February 16, 2022, 09:28:48 pm »
Ouch!
If they make it to retirement, in one piece, thats pretty good. As you point out @jpanhalt many don't.

Now, how many medals do I get for such a round number?

Your eyes deceive you.  Those ain't medals.  They are targets for the anti-aircraft gunners.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online MrMobodies

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #170 on: February 16, 2022, 09:57:03 pm »
It sounds good but I am not in favour of one official answer for everything or maybe as an idea on as a last resort on "call in basis" where there is a thread with no responses for long time or it is agreeable that members don't know and they are called in and forced to provide an answer.

What I like here sometimes are when members argue over different ways or methods of achieving the same thing.

Each way having it's pro's and con's.

I learn from that.

I like to make my own choice based on those arguments and any research or work contributed by the members that may benefit rather than an official answer.
 
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Online thm_w

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #171 on: February 16, 2022, 11:51:37 pm »
...
I don't necessarily know the correct answer, but the highest I know about, currently, is at 181 pages of thanks given to others.

200 pages here  8)

But who you are talking about would likely be higher, if you include all of their accounts.
Profile -> Modify profile -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' signatures
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #172 on: February 16, 2022, 11:56:55 pm »
...
I don't necessarily know the correct answer, but the highest I know about, currently, is at 181 pages of thanks given to others.

200 pages here  8)

But who you are talking about would likely be higher, if you include all of their accounts.

Congratulations, absolutely spot on (well spotted, a forest of accounts hasn't fooled you   ;)  )!

The highest I've found (after my original post), is now up to 224 pages. BD139:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=showposts;sa=thanked;u=143772

Other tea thread regulars, could be better.
 

Online thm_w

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #173 on: February 17, 2022, 01:26:45 am »
Congratulations, absolutely spot on (well spotted, a forest of accounts hasn't fooled you   ;)  )!

The highest I've found (after my original post), is now up to 224 pages. BD139:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=showposts;sa=thanked;u=143772

Other tea thread regulars, could be better.

*447 pages for Mr BD you found.
Profile -> Modify profile -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' signatures
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #174 on: February 17, 2022, 01:35:49 am »
Congratulations, absolutely spot on (well spotted, a forest of accounts hasn't fooled you   ;)  )!

The highest I've found (after my original post), is now up to 224 pages. BD139:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=showposts;sa=thanked;u=143772

Other tea thread regulars, could be better.

*447 pages for Mr BD you found.

You're right. I messed up, and had the wrong button/option set. I quoted the total thanks they have received, rather than the thanks they have given to others.

Also, they have given an amazing 11,152 thanks to other people.  Maybe we should request they get renamed to Father Christmas (Joke).

A new winner (with 699 pages, currently):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=118104;area=showposts;sa=thank;start=17450
With 17,465 thanks given to other posters
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 01:44:36 am by MK14 »
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #175 on: February 17, 2022, 04:56:53 am »
Ah mnementh, our tame TEA dwagon. He likes to engage and thank replies, please don't hold that against him.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #176 on: February 17, 2022, 09:23:38 am »
IIRC there is an option for the Thanks system where it displays under the username. I think we turned that one on once and it was voted off the island!
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #177 on: February 17, 2022, 09:34:03 am »
First it is important to understand what the intended objective of any change is:
This could potentially help newbies or generally just anyone asking a question to perhaps be more confident in a technical answer if it comes from a designated "Expert" in that field. Help weed out the weat from the chaff so to speak.
This needs to be consistently kept in mind as ideas are floated - and these ideas need to be closely considered as to how they will achieve that improvement.

What usually comes next is the discussion of how this could be achieved, which we have seen.  However, I feel it is important to not completely ignore the current situation.

First is the nature of the community and "the vibe" we have here that has developed under the existing conditions:
These sites are fundamentally different. Stack Overflow/Exchange are question-answer services run by peers. EEVBlog forum is a discussion forum. It's a nice, even desirable side effect if the OP gets a straight answer to their exact question, but it's not the primary point.

Second, we should remain mindful of what it offers:
Firstly determining who is (not) worth listening to is a valuable life skill for many reasons and in many circumstances. Newbies might as well learn such discrimination ASAP.
This is no small thing in itself.  It particularly deals with the concept of critical thinking and people taking responsibility for their own actions - instead of just blindly following whatever they believe they read.  There is an argument for helping a beginner with those first stumbling steps - but that is available right now.  All it takes is for a member to take a little time.


I'm not going to speak to how effective any given change may be as I feel there is a far more important aspect to be considered:  What can go wrong.

Anyway, going back to this, for sure, any kind of metric needs to be chosen very, very carefully.  Never underestimate the psychological will to make line go up.  As soon as you make an indicator a metric, it is no longer a good metric
"Any metric once created will be gamed". Someone will play in such a way as to inflate the metric rather than to behave in the way the metric was supposed to measure positively for, wasting time trying to bolster the metric rather than doing something useful to produce the outcome the metric was intended to measure.
This is a certainty.  There are many examples reported and I have witnessed exactly this in KRA/KPI evaluations.  Pretty much guaranteed to screw up any system.

As has been said before, as well as the direct impact on anyone with such an "Expert" badge - which could drive them away - the dynamic would most certainly change:
The problem I can foresee is that people may skip the non experts advice and only take notice of those deemed knowledgeable.

This would stop many people bothering to try to help as they are ignored, and those really knowledgable people would effectively have a full time job just answering questions.

I often learn more from a thread where two or three people have different opinions on how to do something properly than one person giving the “correct” answer.

There are other issues - but I'm going to stop there.


So, the question is - as I see it:  "Will a change provide improvement or risk destabilising what we already have?"

To me, the risk/reward equation falls clearly on the side of not changing - at least as far as the "Expert" badge proposition is concerned.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 09:39:40 am by Brumby »
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #178 on: February 17, 2022, 09:58:21 am »
IIRC there is an option for the Thanks system where it displays under the username. I think we turned that one on once and it was voted off the island!

I don't think the "thanked" counter is an appropriate measure for expertise, but it is the only available data that is readily available and without personal bias. "Expert" badges on the other hand will require setting up rules and procedures for people to elect an "elite" caste and I generally dislike any approach that is not truly merit based.

I also don't think it'll do anyone any good to stop thinking for themselves and rely on a display of "rank" instead. Experts can be wrong.
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #179 on: February 17, 2022, 10:13:54 am »
Sounds like "Social score" pilot test for EEVblog.   :-DD




Joke aside, we are talking HR language here, "potentially help", "more confident", etc.

This could potentially help newbies or generally just anyone asking a question to perhaps be more confident in a technical answer if it comes from a designated "Expert" in that field. Help weed out the weat from the chaff so to speak.

I'm not aware of this being a problem on EEVblog, but maybe I didn't pay attention.  From my own memory, each time I was wrong, other more knowledgeable users corrected me almost instantly.  So again, what lost beginners are we talking about?

Can you, Dave, or maybe the proposer of the initial idea, please give 5-10 links to such threads where the beginner was lost, but a score or a badge would have helped the beginner?

Without some examples, we are just talking words.
 
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Offline rpiloverbd

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #180 on: February 17, 2022, 10:41:42 am »
Not bad.
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #181 on: February 17, 2022, 10:52:09 am »
Well, off to go post cat pictures to get my counter up :D
Note to self: Get a cat first :P

As long as non technical posts can get thanks, this is a meaningless metric.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #182 on: February 17, 2022, 11:00:39 am »
Please let users think for themselves and develop their own opinion about who might be an expert, troll or whatever. Posh badges would only hurt this forum's great community.
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #183 on: February 17, 2022, 11:17:50 am »
Many forums display similar counters so maybe it's not completely crazy.

But it triggers me that it doesn't follow the post count immediately and appears below the country flag :scared:

And it should be one of
Code: [Select]
Thanked 1049 times
Thanked: 1049
Thanks received: 1049
Thanks: 1049
And so on. As is, that colon just ruins it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 11:22:29 am by magic »
 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #184 on: February 17, 2022, 12:22:53 pm »
IIRC there is an option for the Thanks system where it displays under the username. I think we turned that one on once and it was voted off the island!



Maybe it's time to vote if off again?
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #185 on: February 17, 2022, 12:23:45 pm »
But I don't want a thanks counter attached in my avatar box.

@Dave, @EEVblog, why are we doing this?  Only a few posts above you wrote attaching the Thanks counter was rejected, yet I see since today the thanks counter is displayed.

Is somebody forcing you to make such changes?

What's all this bullshit about "protecting the beginners"?  Who came with this request?  Where are any links with proof of damage to beginner?

What is happening here?

Offline Zero999

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #186 on: February 17, 2022, 12:42:10 pm »
But I don't want a thanks counter attached in my avatar box.

@Dave, @EEVblog, why are we doing this?  Only a few posts above you wrote attaching the Thanks counter was rejected, yet I see since today the thanks counter is displayed.

Is somebody forcing you to make such changes?

What's all this bullshit about "protecting the beginners"?  Who came with this request?  Where are any links with proof of damage to beginner?

What is happening here?
Well it's Dave's forum and he can jolly well do what the hell he likes.

I admit, I'm not a fan of the thanks counter either, but if Dave wants it, then so be it.
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #187 on: February 17, 2022, 01:45:42 pm »
If that were to be Dave's wish/idea, I wouldn't argue against, but it is not his, the idea was induced to him.

Dave just wrote showing the thanks counter was not liked and until yesterday, he respected users wish and didn't display that counter before.  Also, all this shitstorm is not coming from a Dave's idea, as written in the OP:
A forum user brought this up...

Am particularly sensitive to any attempts of social score, social stratification and alike scores, especially nowadays.  Social tagging is the next nightmare to humanity, and if you didn't noticed it already begun, look, random example from this week:

Later Edit:
------------
I've copy pasted a wrong video from youtube, my bad sorry, the one I meant to copy was this one, about the ESG Score (Environmental, Social, and Governance risk):  https://youtu.be/diVXYzN-X1k 

I don't want to add to social tagging on a place like EEVblog.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 02:08:12 pm by RoGeorge »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #188 on: February 17, 2022, 01:48:34 pm »
As long as non technical posts can get thanks, this is a meaningless metric.
As long as total number displayed-yes, perhaps meaningless. I was offering to display thanx number for particular area of expertise, together with total or not.
 

Offline Refrigerator

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #189 on: February 17, 2022, 01:52:15 pm »
Can't wait for my "Building projects that blow up multiple times expert" badge  :-DD

But if anyone wants to let others know how much of an expert they are they can just write it down in their forum signature.  :-/O
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 01:56:36 pm by Refrigerator »
I have a blog at http://brimmingideas.blogspot.com/ . Now less empty than ever before !
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Offline eugene

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #190 on: February 17, 2022, 02:53:33 pm »
As long as non technical posts can get thanks, this is a meaningless metric.

If we don't see a user rank, but only the number of thanks received by a particular post, then the metric can be meaningful.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #191 on: February 17, 2022, 03:43:01 pm »
As regards the topic, Designated "Expert" Forum Users?

I think NOT having any significant expert rating system, is the best course of action. Getting perhaps three answers, from users with varying levels of experience/expertise, is useful, in my opinion. For beginners, intermediates and experts asking the questions, alike.

Hypothetical question (and answers are FICTIONAL): Why do MCUs need clocks, such as 48MHz ones ?

The intermediate user, can give a nice explanation of how baud rates need to be generated, how interrupt timing occur, and other practicalities.

A beginner themselves, can say they had the same query, and can recommend this very good internet link about it. Link supplied.

A top expert can say, well actually computers didn't always need to have clocks. There are asynchronous ways of implementing the central processing unit. But such designs rapidly became unpopular, and were soon mostly abandoned. Except for some very rare memory access systems, which benefited from the lack of need to have fixed access times.

So, the various levels of expertise, from total beginner (answering the question with links they found useful, and helpful youtube videos on the subject area), intermediate people chiming in, and the odd real top expert here and there. Can make an interesting, education and useful answer. Perhaps spanning a few forum pages.

Turning this forum into some kind of 'expert' only (for the best answers), or voting for the best answers, doesn't seem like a good idea to me. There have been some very interesting threads, created here in the past. I'm convinced, changing the personality of the forum, may change all that.

On the other hand. Sometimes new concepts do need to be at least tried out. Otherwise, this forum would still be (exaggerated fictional statement follow, for dramatic effect) text only, using a 110 baud dial-up, clip on phone handset modem unit, on a computer from the 1980s.
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #192 on: February 17, 2022, 03:49:38 pm »
Going back to the notion of making things slightly (subtly?) more difficult --

What if the "thank" function were harder to use?  More information could be attached to it, for example:

"You wish to Thank this post. What did you like about it?"
Funny
Polite
Insightful
Technical
Well explained
etc.

Maybe even adding traditional 1-5 scores or something.

Those data wouldn't necessarily even need to be used anywhere, the point being just to give the thanker something to think about before clicking the button.  Obviously there's nothing forcing that to be the case every time -- but in the average case, people do tend to do what the thing says.

And so, it's no longer just a throwaway action, it at the very least demands enough attention to click through these things, and it can be that the answer is only accepted once enough options have been filled out.  Even if one clicks through mindlessly, that can be correlated against e.g. per-user stats (low-value thankers get in a habit of ticking all 5's or what have you?), per-post or thread stats (is a post/thread just consistently bad -- in constructive ways? or is it being brigaded? Or, conversely, is a post/thread consistently good and perhaps worthy of automatic labeling as such?), and this provides a statistical mechanism to infer experts: those that are frequently reviewed, positively, in technical subjects (it could further be clustered by topic), by users that frequently give quality (high entropy?) reviews.  Thus, the scientific method of consensus, but formalized algorithmically, independent of users' egos (hopefully).

Obvious downside: someone has to add those columns to the database, and write and run the evaluation. (Which might run incrementally per post, or be totalized periodically, and whatever cache awareness / synchronicity has to go with that, etc.)  So, unless someone's already written a plugin to this effect, doubt it's going to happen here.  And the value functions aren't the most obvious, and would require testing many variations to arrive at the most useful stats.

And then, Idunno, if it ends up written as an SMF plugin kind of thing, could that be sold in turn as a package to other customers?  Maybe there's a value proposition in there.  Maybe the value isn't anywhere close to what is needed to justify that amount of work (some months of development at least, I would guess?).

As for honest indicators, real financial barriers tend to be representative.  Something of the neoliberal dream, put your money where your mouth is, quite literally.  This might resemble for example Reddit's awards system.  Which is generally not very highly rated as I understand it; but clearly, not so poorly that people don't use it.  And, again, whatever financial liabilities the site would have to undertake to manage that.  Maybe there are ways that e.g. Paypal can streamline such interactions, maybe there's just too much work to do (including international transactions!) that it's only ever feasible for the biggest players (i.e. Reddit themselves).

Tim
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 03:52:10 pm by T3sl4co1l »
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #193 on: February 17, 2022, 03:59:10 pm »
"You wish to Thank this post. What did you like about it?"
Funny  1/5
Polite 4/5
Insightful 5/5
Technical 3/5
Well explained 5/5
etc. -2/5

See post above.

EDIT: Sorry. But I think it would be a real pain to fill out information like that, for every 'thank' issued.
The fact you just have to spend a couple of seconds to just click it, makes it VERY convenient.
It's just that a few members here click the thank button way too frequently.
(I'm trying to NOT overuse the thank button, but do seem to supply quite a few).

For example, ebay have quite a few fields like above, to fill out, for sellers you have just dealt with. It is a bit of a chore to fill it all out. Having the same chore, just for other peoples forums posts, seems like a bind to me, even if you liked and want to thank their post.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 04:11:40 pm by MK14 »
 

Online rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #194 on: February 17, 2022, 04:13:24 pm »
Going back to the notion of making things slightly (subtly?) more difficult --

What if the "thank" function were harder to use?  More information could be attached to it, for example:

"You wish to Thank this post. What did you like about it?"
Funny
Polite
Insightful
Technical
Well explained
etc.

Maybe even adding traditional 1-5 scores or something.


And now you have placed quite a burden on someone who just wants to thank someone.  Now they have to score it, mentally justify it or, more likely, walk away.  Somebody better keep a tally of the 'Entire Board Thanks Per Day' over time.  I'll bet it goes way down!

No, I'm not a fan!  Probably because I have no particular skills and stand in awe of those who do but nevertheless...
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #195 on: February 17, 2022, 04:17:28 pm »
Hey, at least we don't have a way to buy "thanks" points.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #196 on: February 17, 2022, 04:17:38 pm »
I admit, I'm not a fan of the thanks counter either, but if Dave wants it, then so be it.

It's making me a bit queasy....I hope it goes away.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #197 on: February 17, 2022, 04:27:24 pm »
It's making me a bit queasy....I hope it goes away.

Maybe the thanks system and/or displaying it, on all forum screens. Should be a selectable option(s), that can be enabled or disabled. Under user preferences. Then whoever wants to can just opt out of the thanks system and other possible future changes/additions.
 

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #198 on: February 17, 2022, 04:31:02 pm »

Maybe even adding traditional 1-5 scores or something.

Why?  Before making any change there should be a reason for it, and the advantages weighed against the disadvantages.  I outlined some of the disadvantages in my first post on this topic.  I see no advantage in a score or even keeping track of thanks.  Maybe you do.
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #199 on: February 17, 2022, 04:44:49 pm »
To clarify, I don't expect much, or care very strongly, about such a feature (see my first comment in this thread).  Just speculating on methods that might be useful, given one is interested in adding such in the first place.

This is, more or less, motivated in relation to the one social stat we currently have, so I'm rather abusing the nature of it above.  It would certainly be renamed to something more meaningful -- "Review this post", say.

In which case, we could still have the "Thanks" function, and not even worry about tallying counts per user, because -- as we already know -- it's not a very meaningful/useful signal at all, more just an acknowledgement that people appreciate something about some posts.  It's useful under a given post, and not really beyond that.

So, given a prompt of, "that, but usefuller", that's kind of my angle on this.  Speculative, brainstormy, nothing should be read as "it will be precisely this way and no other".  I mean, hell, I'm pretty fucking far from having any kind of authority to implement such a thing, come on. ;D

...Speaking of "reviews", there's also the "report this post" function.  Which as far as I know, is nothing more than PMing a mod.  Having some built-in statistics could save some mod effort (assuming they need the assistance -- which as far as I know, hasn't been any kind of issue).  Another way to think of it is, providing more of a sliding scale from "praise" to "meh" to "factually incorrect" to "actually spam, mods pls".  Maybe there's value in the proportionality of the rating?

Idunno.  Again, I'm just an electrical engineer, not a social one. ;D

Tim
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #200 on: February 17, 2022, 04:53:06 pm »
Hey, at least we don't have a way to buy "thanks" points.
Sure we do!  I'll thank all of your posts if you thank all of mine and we'll be the overachievers of the Thanks system.
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #201 on: February 17, 2022, 05:23:16 pm »

Sure we do!  I'll thank all of your posts if you thank all of mine and we'll be the overachievers of the Thanks system.

And I suspect you know that is exactly what happens on another forum, not to mention names.  Except, that forum now gives trophies.
 

Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #202 on: February 17, 2022, 05:35:20 pm »
And I suspect you know that is exactly what happens on another forum, not to mention names.  Except, that forum now gives trophies.

I have no idea which forum you are talking about (maybe ?). But if I did, I imagine they would have categories as follows:

Quote
Messages
Helped 123
Reputation 456
Reaction score 789
Trophy points 1234
Activity points 5678

What exactly do those things mean, such as what determines the reputation, what is a reaction score, and activity points. What are trophy points ?
Would a beginner, even have a clue what those parameters mean ?

I wonder if it is aiming to get the facebook likes/dislikes crowd or something.

 

Offline Algoma

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #203 on: February 17, 2022, 05:53:25 pm »
"helpful" Reaction type emoji's that can be "awarded" to the headers of significant posts in a thread to highlight them. Basically see Reddit "awards" for reference, these can also become a source of financial support for the forum operations to give them more actual value.

 :horse: :-/O   :scared:
 
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Offline hans

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #204 on: February 17, 2022, 05:56:22 pm »
Having read the discussion of the last few pages.. don't know where to hook into. But my 2cts:

The "Thanks" system is analogous to the Facebook Like button. Stackexchange atleast has the downvote option. YouTube HAD the downvote option. I think an upvote only system is flawed by design.

Second, turning engineering advisory into some kind of democracy system is hard, or .. weird. If we want an expert assigned, how is that expert promoted or nominated? Is it based on popularity, amount of effort/activity or visibility? I've seen some people posting regurarly with good advice, but also admitting their limitations of knowledge. OTOH I've also seen some pretty though and relentless comments on this forum from time to time, especially when things start to get opinion based, so I would hardly be surprised if any of this will be based on fairness or equal treatment.. If that is of interest.

E.g. if a college undergrad needs to study a paper for class and can point out a mistake in the calculations to the professor.. Then that still is a mistake. And that mistake could cause a skyscraper to go down. In that case it's a good thing that there is a disinterest in the discussion.

I personally think all of these post counters, thanks, likes, ratios, badges, assigned expert, "Voted as helpful answer" is a race to the bottom: monkeys climbing the mountain and being the one on top. Obviously we're goofing around with the system in this thread, but I personally think that having a discussion on equal human and moral values is the best environment a forum can put forward.

For example, I'm very content that the moderation and administration of this forum doesn't go onto a power grab to make their point or try to "organize" the system to their liking. I've seen this happen quite often on other platforms, such as StackExchange, where they can start whining about referencing some external site (because it may go down in the future, rendering the post "useless").
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #205 on: February 17, 2022, 05:59:14 pm »
"helpful" Reaction type emoji's that can be "awarded" to the headers of significant posts in a thread to highlight them. Basically see Reddit "awards" for reference, these can also become a source of financial support for the forum operations to give them more actual value.

 :horse: :-/O   :scared:

To check my understanding. It means users of a forum (or similar), can pay money, which then is an additional/another income stream, for the forum/channel/entity. Which allows the user to buy, virtual coins, which they can then award to helpful members.
Hence you can't just go around handing out thanks clicks, just like candy. As they have to be bought.
But since they support a popular forum/channel (Youtube), I can understand why that would be an interesting idea.

https://www.reddit.com/coins
Quote
What are coins?
Coins are our virtual good, and you can use them to award exceptional posts or comments, giving them Silver, Gold, or Platinum. We'll be adding cool new ways to spend your coins in the future.

EDIT What worries me about the system I just described (virtual coins). Is forum members finances vary, e.g. a young electronics hobbyist, who has difficulty buying stuff at the moment. So I don't like the idea of any thanking/ranking/trophy system being connected to financially purchasable tokens.

Looking at the top of this forum:
Quote
A Free & Open Forum For Electronics Enthusiasts & Professionals

Wouldn't then apply, in my opinion. Even the suggested 'expert' system, in my view, means the Open and Free bits would need to be removed or amended.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 06:11:45 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #206 on: February 17, 2022, 06:13:35 pm »
What about combining Thanks with Agreed, instead? (As in Thank/Agree, instead of just Thank, and similarly in the statistics.)

It seems to match the current use of Thanks, especially across topics and sub-forums.  It might defuse some of the social gaming aspects ("score"), too.
 
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Online rstofer

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #207 on: February 17, 2022, 06:21:23 pm »

Sure we do!  I'll thank all of your posts if you thank all of mine and we'll be the overachievers of the Thanks system.

And I suspect you know that is exactly what happens on another forum, not to mention names.  Except, that forum now gives trophies.

And I haven't been back since the day I discovered the change.  I'm far too old to get 'trophies'.  Hell, I've been retired for 18 years and my only claim to 'expertism' is that I live comfortably despite not having a commute.  Silicon Gulch was good while it lasted.  I don't miss it a bit!

 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #208 on: February 17, 2022, 06:24:55 pm »
Only somewhat related to the "expert" tag, but more about helping beginners:

On occasion I jump in to help where there is a fairly simple question.  Sometimes I make the first reply.  Sometimes I nail it, or at least get so close that nobody else cares to add anything (even if I ask for additional comments or opinions).  I'm not looking for someone to compliment me on my amazing use of Ohm's law, and I certainly hope to be corrected if I get it wrong, but I think it would be helpful for the beginner to see a confirmation.  For all they know, I'm just some random idiot.
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #209 on: February 17, 2022, 06:34:53 pm »
Only somewhat related to the "expert" tag, but more about helping beginners:

On occasion I jump in to help where there is a fairly simple question.  Sometimes I make the first reply.  Sometimes I nail it, or at least get so close that nobody else cares to add anything (even if I ask for additional comments or opinions).  I'm not looking for someone to compliment me on my amazing use of Ohm's law, and I certainly hope to be corrected if I get it wrong, but I think it would be helpful for the beginner to see a confirmation.  For all they know, I'm just some random idiot.
This is exactly the situation when I wish there was an Agree button, instead of a Thanks one.

Then again, the Thanks button itself does have it uses, just different.  Which is why I do not think the two would "collide" if combined into the same.  It just means that the reader needs to consider the post itself, and which aspect of the Thanks/Agreed applies.  But its very presence is useful for new members, as indication confirming the post somehow; that somehow being quantifiable only by reading the post and examining the posting history of those who thanked/agreed with it.

I must say, having ones post somehow "end" the thread with no response or acknowledgement feels nasty.  It happens to me often, and I never know whether the thread came to a natural end, or if others just got fed up with my verbosity, and chose not to engage any further.  I sometimes do avoid posting for exactly that reason, especially in the Beginner forum; I do not want to be the only one giving advice.
 
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Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #210 on: February 17, 2022, 06:48:33 pm »
If the vote is for an expert tag, then why are the "Thanked XXX times" suddenly under the user info? I vote no on this because it offers no substance as to the proper use of "Thank User" button. As mentioned above, there are many reasons that replies get thanked, some simply thank replies because they replied.

But, as usual, the members have morphed this question into something else. So if there is a button or trophy to be given to forum members, such as number of times thanked, then I will propose a different viewpoint:

How about another button that only the OP can see/utilize called "This is the answer that I was looking for" or some such thing, I invite others to name it better. If the OP presses this button that only the OP can see, the thread ends, but the OP has the option to reply when this button is pressed to explain that this is the answer they were looking for.

If this is a "merit" badge for those interested in merit badges, then the total "merits" can optionally be displayed on the forum member who was tagged.

 :-/O  :popcorn:

EDIT: Just for reference, I voted "I don't like it".
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 06:53:35 pm by tpowell1830 »
PEACE===>T
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #211 on: February 17, 2022, 06:56:43 pm »
If you are going to have a Thanks button there should be the obvious No-Thanks button to make the choice binary.  Voting should be compulsory and limited to the OP.  It's their question and only their opinion matters and it is required.

That kind of levels the playing field - if a poster has given too many No-Thanks, don't bother with their question, you'll only diminish your reputation.  Lots of posts, not many Thanks.  Like my account...

Leaving a reply with Thanks or <no comment> seems unfair to the respondents.

ETA:  Maybe add Thanks Given to Thanks Received in the side bar.  There must be something the numbers guys can make of posts, Thanks Given and Thanks Received.  Maybe add Threads Started...  We could do an entire AI project identifying the true experts!  Or at least the most popular members...



« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 07:01:30 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #212 on: February 17, 2022, 07:01:21 pm »
I must say, having ones post somehow "end" the thread with no response or acknowledgement feels nasty.  It happens to me often, and I never know whether the thread came to a natural end, or if others just got fed up with my verbosity, and chose not to engage any further.  I sometimes do avoid posting for exactly that reason, especially in the Beginner forum; I do not want to be the only one giving advice.

You just need to try to work with your self-esteem. I know, it's easier said than done! Anyone who does not like your verbosity is free to ignore you. The rest of us - we like it so much that we are like "Yes!! Nominal has posted again!!". Trust me, even if no one replies anything, the post has been appreciated by many. If you keep the discussion going, even with the risk of being "the last one", the chances of someone else posting again are higher, than if you choose to be silent.

If you are the only one giving advice, sure it feels a bit awkward, but... In the end, the responsibility of participating is on the shoulders of others. If no one else wants to say anything, it's their problem, not yours.

The highest thanks/posts ratio is by those who write something
* easily agreeable by most
* yet not meaningless; with actual points / relevance to the topic
* distilled, 1-2 interesting details
* not too long or detailed,

so they appeal to most groups at least in one way. Cerebus hits the nail.

Those who write very long, detailed posts, like Tim or yourself or even myself sometimes (although I'm not claiming I'm in the same league; I could come closer if I doubled-tripled the effort and time spent in writing), appeal to those who like reading long posts, and have time to do that; that just limits the audience!

Yet, long, detailed posts are exactly what we need, not many write them, because doing it well requires so much time and effort, as you very well know. But because reading them also requires time and effort, it's just inevitable they are not for everyone. The result is mediocre thanks/posts ratio which does not reflect the high quality of the posts.
 

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #213 on: February 17, 2022, 07:01:37 pm »
I think this idea was deemed to be bad halfway though the page 1. If this was stackoverflow, the discussion would be over :).
Alex
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #214 on: February 17, 2022, 07:05:32 pm »
If you are going to have a Thanks button there should be the obvious No-Thanks button to make the choice binary.  Voting should be compulsory and limited to the OP.  It's their question and only their opinion matters and it is required.

Very strong disagree on this.

The best thing about this forum is, this is not a question-answer service like Stack Overflow. X-Y problems are commonplace; some of the best and most factual answers irritate many posters, because they are not what they expect or want to hear. Yet, these answers are what they need to hear. Even more importantly, what others with similar problem need to hear!

Hence, rating can't be left for those who started the discussion. They can not, and do not represent everyone else with the same or similar question.
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #215 on: February 17, 2022, 07:07:55 pm »
I think this idea was deemed to be bad halfway though the page 1. If this was stackoverflow, the discussion would be over :).

This answer is a duplicate of an answer from another thread (posted 6.5 years ago). Also, not enough people have accepted this answer/post as being correct enough. Suggest deletion of this post, as not relevant enough.

tl;dr
Alternatives have downsides as well as upsides.
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #216 on: February 17, 2022, 07:23:28 pm »
If the vote is for an expert tag, then why are the "Thanked XXX times" suddenly under the user info? I vote no on this because it offers no substance as to the proper use of "Thank User" button. As mentioned above, there are many reasons that replies get thanked, some simply thank replies because they replied.

But, as usual, the members have morphed this question into something else. So if there is a button or trophy to be given to forum members, such as number of times thanked, then I will propose a different viewpoint:

How about another button that only the OP can see/utilize called "This is the answer that I was looking for" or some such thing, I invite others to name it better. If the OP presses this button that only the OP can see, the thread ends, but the OP has the option to reply when this button is pressed to explain that this is the answer they were looking for.

If this is a "merit" badge for those interested in merit badges, then the total "merits" can optionally be displayed on the forum member who was tagged.

 :-/O  :popcorn:

EDIT: Just for reference, I voted "I don't like it".

Ending the thread could be useful but the most fun threads start after the original question is answered and the discussion goes off the rails and into the weeds.

Here is one of Simon's  queries from several years ago.  There is a lot of interesting information about the various math solvers as well as the question itself.  It went off the rails fairly early:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/mesh-analysis/

Then there is Charlotte's epic thread on purchasing a scope.  She buys a Siglent SDS1202X-E around Reply 150 and then it gets interesting as she wanders through the User Manual trying every feature.  I had never use a scope to integrate a signal...  Tautech's contributions are very helpful!

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-an-oscilloscope-recommended-for-a-woman-passionate-about-electronics/

These are both memorable threads because they got interesting after they went off the rails.  I don't think the Thanks system can adequately address the utility of either of these threads particularly if it is used to close threads.

OTOH, I wouldn't mind seeing a Zombie system installed that closes forever threads older than <some duration>.  Posting to a discussion that ended 5 years ago seems dubious.  It's dead, leave it that way!  I'm thinking weeks, not years.


« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 07:33:52 pm by rstofer »
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #217 on: February 17, 2022, 07:24:38 pm »
If you are going to have a Thanks button there should be the obvious No-Thanks button to make the choice binary.  Voting should be compulsory and limited to the OP.  It's their question and only their opinion matters and it is required.

That kind of levels the playing field - if a poster has given too many No-Thanks, don't bother with their question, you'll only diminish your reputation.  Lots of posts, not many Thanks.  Like my account...
First, do no harm.  I cannot agree to any negative, including no thanks, feedback.  Negative and various varieties of like/dislike was tried at ETO years ago.  It was a monumental failure.  I don't know if the varieties of like are still there.  Zero function whether divided by 1 or 5 is still zero.

The exception is the immediate "thank you" that is not added to a cumulative score.  A thank you for any help or effort to help is always appropriate. The "binary" opposite almost never is except in a civil debate.  Can you imagine going to someone's house for dinner and not thanking the host and hostess regardless of how bad it was?

 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #218 on: February 17, 2022, 07:32:13 pm »
If you are going to have a Thanks button there should be the obvious No-Thanks button to make the choice binary.  Voting should be compulsory and limited to the OP.  It's their question and only their opinion matters and it is required.

Very strong disagree on this.

The best thing about this forum is, this is not a question-answer service like Stack Overflow. X-Y problems are commonplace; some of the best and most factual answers irritate many posters, because they are not what they expect or want to hear. Yet, these answers are what they need to hear. Even more importantly, what others with similar problem need to hear!

Hence, rating can't be left for those who started the discussion. They can not, and do not represent everyone else with the same or similar question.

Yes, I was being facetious again...

I don't like any part of the proposed solutions.  The downsides for all of them far outweigh the upsides.  People just want to have fun, not compete for trophies.  Do we give Participation Awards?  Sounds like it!
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #219 on: February 17, 2022, 07:37:58 pm »
We need a facetious emoji.  I thought that might be the case, but I didn't want to say that, if you weren't.
 

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #220 on: February 17, 2022, 07:40:23 pm »
Already mentioned by me.

But it would be nice to have user selectable options, via the forum account settings, and similar. Such as:
  • OPT-IN to Thanking System
  • Disable Thanking system for this user
  • Show Thanks totals on all posts
  • Hide total thanks from everyone except actual user
  • Show Expert Titles, Badges and Trophies
  • Hide and Opt out of all Badges and Trophies
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #221 on: February 17, 2022, 07:46:06 pm »
I think this idea was deemed to be bad halfway though the page 1. If this was stackoverflow, the discussion would be over :).

That made me laugh.
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Offline emece67

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #222 on: February 17, 2022, 07:51:24 pm »
.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 05:14:11 pm by emece67 »
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #223 on: February 17, 2022, 07:57:43 pm »
I must say, having ones post somehow "end" the thread with no response or acknowledgement feels nasty.  It happens to me often, and I never know whether the thread came to a natural end, or if others just got fed up with my verbosity, and chose not to engage any further.  I sometimes do avoid posting for exactly that reason, especially in the Beginner forum; I do not want to be the only one giving advice.

You just need to try to work with your self-esteem. I know, it's easier said than done! Anyone who does not like your verbosity is free to ignore you. The rest of us - we like it so much that we are like "Yes!! Nominal has posted again!!". Trust me, even if no one replies anything, the post has been appreciated by many. If you keep the discussion going, even with the risk of being "the last one", the chances of someone else posting again are higher, than if you choose to be silent.

If you are the only one giving advice, sure it feels a bit awkward, but... In the end, the responsibility of participating is on the shoulders of others. If no one else wants to say anything, it's their problem, not yours.

The highest thanks/posts ratio is by those who write something
* easily agreeable by most
* yet not meaningless; with actual points / relevance to the topic
* distilled, 1-2 interesting details
* not too long or detailed,

so they appeal to most groups at least in one way. Cerebus hits the nail.

Those who write very long, detailed posts, like Tim or yourself or even myself sometimes (although I'm not claiming I'm in the same league; I could come closer if I doubled-tripled the effort and time spent in writing), appeal to those who like reading long posts, and have time to do that; that just limits the audience!

Yet, long, detailed posts are exactly what we need, not many write them, because doing it well requires so much time and effort, as you very well know. But because reading them also requires time and effort, it's just inevitable they are not for everyone. The result is mediocre thanks/posts ratio which does not reflect the high quality of the posts.

I edit myself. I often initially end up writing something much longer, but I go back, try and put myself in the reader's seat, see if it makes sense, then restructure, clarify, remove redundancies, as necessary. Obviously not if it's just a conversational post.

I've had the luxury of having a sub-editor regularly do it for me, and I've seen how much a sub-editor can improve something; so I try to be my own sub-editor, but it's a poor second place to a having genuine different pair of eyes read something before 'publishing'.
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #224 on: February 17, 2022, 07:59:12 pm »
I must say, having ones post somehow "end" the thread with no response or acknowledgement feels nasty.  It happens to me often, and I never know whether the thread came to a natural end, or if others just got fed up with my verbosity, and chose not to engage any further.  I sometimes do avoid posting for exactly that reason, especially in the Beginner forum; I do not want to be the only one giving advice.
You just need to try to work with your self-esteem.
No, that's not the issue.  You see, if I wanted to be the only one dispensing advice, I'd do that at my own web page; I even have a domain ready for that, if the fancy strikes me.  And while I definitely am no expert, I have lots and lots of experience in various things I'm very proud of and willing to discuss.
While I do have some self-esteem issues, mostly my issues are with communication.  As you know, I'm never shy of providing my own opinion or viewpoint.

The issue is that a single viewpoint is just a single viewpoint.  When both questions and answers have quite a lot of guesses and "noise" involved – well, questions mostly lack necessary information, rather than have too much information or useless information in them –, each answer includes a set of undisclosed assumptions, which may or may not be correct.  (I sometimes answer questions based on an informed guess – based on past observations of similar questions – and they suprisingly often hit the asker's target, but equally often weird out other potential answerers as to "what made you think they asked about that?)

Consider a collegial coffee break or beer after work, where someone describes a problem they're having with something, and one of the group makes a suggestion on how to proceed or solve the issue.  Then, consider the three cases of how the situation continues:
  • The group simply disbands, people looking at their empty cups or glasses, and either go get a refill or back to their work.
     
  • Other members of the group make assent noises or nods, look at their empty cups or glasses, and either go get a refill or back to their work.
     
  • Someone (or more than one) says "hey, that's a good idea; thanks for suggesting that, I'll have to rememer it myself too".  Then, everyone looks at their empty cups or glasses, and either go get a refill or back to their work.
The first one is what happens now.  You may not believe this, but I'm actually quite emphatic, and whenever I detect that situation in real life, end up chatting with the asker, just to avoid them having to experience that silence.  On the net, it is harder to do.

The second is what I'd like to have: an Agree button.  Not only does it solve the problem Dave is asking whether the forum should have designated "Expert" forum users –– helping new members and basically everyone evaluate suggestions made, without trying to change the posting culture so that people would post much more "I agree, that's what I'd suggest too" posts.  It is also very easy, a single click.

The third is the existing "Thanks" option, from my own perspective.  Because of the perception of a pure "Thank you" in different cultures, different members treat it differently.  Some use it as a pure acknowledgement –– say, like looking at whoever is talking now, showing that what they are saying is being considered and thought of -–; some like myself use it somewhat as a mix of the second and third cases above, depending on the subject; some use it as a bookmark; and some think it is such a strong endorsement that it should be used sparingly, or it will lose its value, lowering the signal-to-noise ratio unacceptably.

Unfortunately, it looks like the forum software does not currently support or have any easy way to implement a separate Agree button that would work exactly like Thanks, but be separate.  So my favourite suggestion is unfortunately out.

Therefore, the "best" option, in my opinion and experience with technical forums, would be to combine the Thanks button with Agree/Assent/Concur.
While the change would be just to the text shown on the page (on the button and in statistics), it might be a clever solution to the underlying problem Dave is considering adding "Expert" user classification for.  For members, it just means that if they read a thread, and they see a solution they themselves would suggest if it had not already been suggested, or if they agree with the suggestion and have some experience with the problem or similar problems, they are encouraged to click on the Thanks/Agreed button. 

On the Help page –– right next to the Home button on the link bar ––, this could be described explicitly; as well as on the pages intended for new members to read, and on the Forum rules etc.

In a real sense, this would be the social engineering option to solve an underlying problem for which a technical solution has been suggested.
 

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #225 on: February 17, 2022, 08:01:54 pm »
We need a facetious emoji.  I thought that might be the case, but I didn't want to say that, if you weren't.

I don't do 'social media'.  I have no idea how to use emojis even if I were so inclined.  'Luddite' applies here...
 

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #226 on: February 18, 2022, 01:24:30 am »



You're getting me worried, about the changes which are happening here.
I'm absolutely NOT a facebook fan kind of person.

It happened to another forum. I won't mention its name here. But they went from a nice/neat open plan, forum, to a horrible messy, point scoring, expert only sectioned, massive eye hurting, mess-up.
I almost have to squint my eyes, when ever I see it, and I just ignore the silly/crazy points schemes, multi-faceted likes (many types selectable on there), and one or more sections is for EXPERT replies only. They also added up/down voting things.
But I don't mind, there are still many places available, around the internet, to find out about things.
I think they had a change of management, which was probably why things changed. They were probably more concerned about maximizing views, advertising and hence profitability.

If I understand things correctly, the users in general, hated the new schemes, and said so. But the admin teams, seemed to ignore all the complaints, and just did whatever they wanted to.
On the one hand it is their forum, they can do what they like. But on the other, the best users probably disappeared, and the less useful members remained. But maybe the forum was getting less and less popular anyway, as I suppose times change.

I think I'd read things on that forum less and less, anyway, a long while, before the changes. But I was amazed at how bad a forum can be messed up, with a change of management and various changes they make.

As I see it. It is like the modern freemium games. With paid micro-transactions. Whereby once good games, with sensible one-off game purchase pricing, became expensive horrible freemium ones.

tl;dr
Not all changes are good. It's not my forum, but a thread asking what we think, seems to have been created. So I'll leave my opinions.
On reflection, I think I'm being significantly too pessimistic, in my outlook. I.e. Making a mountain out of a molehill.   :palm:
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 01:59:38 am by MK14 »
 

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #227 on: February 18, 2022, 02:00:53 am »
I can see arguments on both sides of the fence, but I'm swaying more towards the "don't like it" option for these reasons:

  • Some experts (not all) will simply use the tag to stroke their own egos or perhaps attempt to use it as a subtle tool to make themselves appear more knowledgeable in other fields, even when they aren't (kind of like not correcting someone when they mistakenly assume you have a certain position/authority/credentials etc...).
  • Some experts are introverts or don't like to be labelled, so to those who don't know them, they might appear less "authoritative".
  • It creates classes of people which will inevitably lead to bullying.
  • Some people might take offence if they don't "make the grade.
  • Determining who is an expert shouldn't be up to the admins/moderators.
  • Likewise if you let users class themselves as experts, it de-values the meaning as non-experts will simply use the tag to feed their own egos or misrepresent themselves.
  • We don't wear a badge to social events that says "expert", why do it here?
  • What problem/deficiency are we attempting to solve by implementing this?

I'd much prefer a system where others can up or down-vote user comments to produce some kind of aggregate "score", but even that is not without its problems and needs careful consideration. For example, on the Australian internet forum Whirlpool, every user has an "aura" which is basically a popularity vote. Regardless if your content is true or factual, if you piss the wrong people off, they will do everything in their power to down-vote users in order to artificially impact their aura. I saw this all the time as a moderator there before I left. It just became a poisonous forum to be part of.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 02:05:03 am by Halcyon »
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #228 on: February 18, 2022, 02:02:06 am »
Yes, questions posed in the "Go Ask The Expert" sections on that other board could only be answered by the appointed expert on the topic.  That left all of the burden on one person and the various forums could be stagnant for years.  Truly a waste of pixels.

I started thinking about divisiveness (again) and how one possible result of this topic just adds another example of 'them versus us' and all of its side effects.  There's enough divisiveness going around without adding it to a laid-back family oriented forum.  There are some very talented people hanging out here and most seem quite generous with their time.

Who should be the most comfortable here?  The folks that have been here a while and are just kickin' back or the person who showed up on Tuesday and didn't like the replies?

 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #229 on: February 18, 2022, 02:07:17 am »
I can see arguments on both sides of the fence, but I'm swaying more towards the "don't like it" option for these reasons:

  • Some experts (not all) will simply use the tag to stroke their own egos or perhaps attempt to use it as a subtle tool to make themsevles appear more knowledgeable in other fields, even when they aren't (kind of like not correcting someone when they mistakenly assume you have a certain position/authority/credentials etc...).
  • Some experts are introverts or don't like to be labelled, so to those who don't know them, they might appear less "authoritative".
  • It creates classes of people which will inevitably lead to bullying.
  • Some people might take offence if they don't "make the grade.
  • Determining who is an expert shouldn't be up to the admins/moderators.
  • Likewise if you let users class themselves as experts, it de-values the meaning as non-experts will simply use the tag to feed their own egos or misrepresent themselves.
  • We don't wear a badge to social events that says "expert", why do it here?
  • What problem/deficiency are we attempting to solve by implementing this?

I'd much prefer a system where others can up or down-vote user comment to produce some kind of aggregate "score", but even that is not without its problems. For example, on the Australian internet forum Whirlpool, every user has an "aura" which is basically a popularity vote. Regardless if your content is true or factual, if you piss the wrong people off, they will do everything in their power to down-vote users in order to artificially impact their aura. I saw this all the time as a moderator there before I left. It just became a poisonous forum to be part of.

That about sums it up!  But I'm also against the up/down-voting.  How do you judge the quality of the person voting.  Maybe they don't like the reply because it doesn't fit their preconceived idea of how a problem should be solved.  Their solution won't work, they get told it won't work and then they down-vote the reply.

You last point is the most important (in my view).  What problem is being solved and, more important, why is it being solved at all?

« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 02:08:52 am by rstofer »
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #230 on: February 18, 2022, 02:10:47 am »
I left StackOverflow and StackExchange because of experts who were more interested in their social score "reputation" than being factual/useful.  It is typical for high-scoring members to leave their inaccurate or misleading answer to stand as long as it garners positive score, and simply delete it without admitting any error if it looks like it might go negative.  They never admit to making an error, because that might negatively affect their "reputation".  (I know about a dozen members of each site that are the complete opposite, and like me, don't like the social gaming, but really enjoy trying to help with difficult questions, and learners to learn in an effective manner.  The majority plays the score game.)

I don't like voting "up" or "down".  The number of members who agree or disagree does not matter to me, and because it only indicates popularity (of the question and answer).  I do not believe the numerical count is actually useful in any way.  At best, it is a hint.  At worst, it may often mislead.

I'd also like to get rid of that new Thanked: counter under my country flags; it weirds me out.

What matters, is what kind of posts those who give advice, or who signal their agreement on some advice, have made in the recent past.

Note: I do not think that who agrees in itself is important or even relevant, because I believe argument from authority is a fallacy.  It's just that the most reliable and functional way to assess the weight of someones opinion is to examine their other statements at around the same time; here, their most recent posts across topics.  (Having the Thanked/Agreed name list in each post directly link to the most recent posts of that member would therefore be better than just linking to that member's profile page.)

Of course, it is even better if we can simply read the reasoning and experience behind that opinion instead, because those can be objectively evaluated for applicability in other situations, which is why I far prefer those reasons and experience over the actual opinions.  But that makes for much longer posts...
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #231 on: February 18, 2022, 02:40:57 am »
I know other forums that went the other direction and removed even post counts from the forum display (you could still check it through their profile if you wanted) as it was uncorrelated to anything important in discussions. Should be interesting to see if publicizing a users thanked count adds any value.

Counts of things in a forum/community with diverse activities/groups is a poor measure, as discussed above with the example tea thread.
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #232 on: February 18, 2022, 03:16:16 am »
I'm pretty sure some of the thanks I have are due to me stating I'd had enough of the debate I was in and was going to bed ...  :-DD
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #233 on: February 18, 2022, 05:55:00 am »
An "ex" is a has-been, and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.

No, Dave, it smacks of arrogance and lofty aspirations.  Bad move. Don't. Do. It.
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Designated "Expert" Forum Users?
« Reply #234 on: February 18, 2022, 06:36:17 am »
An "ex" is a has-been, and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.


I recall it being X is an unknown quantity.

But yeah.  ;D
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