EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: bloguetronica on October 12, 2018, 04:29:58 pm
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Hi,
About a week ago I've ordered 10 boards and a stencil from ALLPCB.COM . I've paid $37 for the boards, $13 for the stencil, plus $18.63 for shipping, fees, plus a discount, giving a grand total of $68.63, or 61.29€.
However, it seems that the Portuguese customs, still living in the stone age, declared the value to be 94.34€, and the VAT now is 21.23€ (a 6€ ripoff). But the worst is that now I have to pay to DHL 33.76€ plus VAT, yielding an added ripoff value of 63.22€, which by itself is more than what I already payed for the package.
Has anyone had such a ripoff with DHL? Really, doing business with this carrier is worse than doing business with thieves. IMHO, German companies such as DHL are the worst at thieving.
Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
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Welcome to the real world. This is customs brokerage. They all do this. Next time, read the fine print.
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ask them to declare lower value next time
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DHL is a ripoff, especially shipping from Asia:
Shipping Fee
Customs/Duties/Brokerage Fees
Taxes
Handling Fee $18 for me
I find you end up paying double what your parts cost, just for all this. I use post instead and wait weeks for the boat.
You could try to get the declared value corrected.
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Welcome to the real world. This is customs brokerage. They all do this. Next time, read the fine print.
Not all that simple, not all are equal. Recently DPD charged me 10GBP ($13) for brokerage, no documents asked. Shipment was by SF express and DPD took it over in UK. If I use DHL or UPS as a private person, I submit necessary documents through tax agency website and don't pay a dime in brokerage fees. In the past DHL charged EUR 25 ($29) for brokerage if you did not want to visit customs and submit documents personally.
If I order something as a company, I need to use customs broker in any case unless it's post/EMS. In that case it costs EUR 50+. So often I just order as a private person instead of company if it's something not expensive. Because I'll spend more on customs brokerage compared to all taxes I could save as a company.
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Welcome to the real world. This is customs brokerage. They all do this. Next time, read the fine print.
The fine print of a contract you are not a party to? I've so far argued this point with the likes of DHL/Fedex/UPS and got the brokerage fees waived. I pay them the VAT part which they hopefully actually do pass on to HMRC.
It's ludicrous to pay ~£25 on goods that total £30 just for the service of a VAT calculation that a child can do in their head ( value * 0.2 )
"Yes, Macbeth, we at DHL/FedEx/UPS have got our crack team of customs brokers onto the case. We have determined you owe HMRC £6 in VAT. For our magnanimous service you didn't even ask for, we now invoice you £25 + £6 = £31"
In fact the whole thing is down to the EU with their ludicrously low customs limits. Dave doesn't have to bother with this in Australia until goods are valued over $1000 AUD.
If I use DHL or UPS as a private person, I submit necessary documents through tax agency website and don't pay a dime in brokerage fees. In the past DHL charged EUR 25 ($29) for brokerage if you did not want to visit customs and submit documents personally.
Is this available in the UK? I have to admit pretty much everything I get now comes from China/Taiwan using other postal services and there is never any brokerage, customs duty or VAT. It's odd how that works. But if I was to use a big name courier for goods from the US it's nice to know I can pre-empt the brokerage fees scam before they try it on.
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Welcome to the real world. This is customs brokerage. They all do this. Next time, read the fine print.
The fine print of a contract you are not a party to?
LOL ever buy a house?
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If I use DHL or UPS as a private person, I submit necessary documents through tax agency website and don't pay a dime in brokerage fees. In the past DHL charged EUR 25 ($29) for brokerage if you did not want to visit customs and submit documents personally.
Is this available in the UK? I have to admit pretty much everything I get now comes from China/Taiwan using other postal services and there is never any brokerage, customs duty or VAT. It's odd how that works. But if I was to use a big name courier for goods from the US it's nice to know I can pre-empt the brokerage fees scam before they try it on.
Dunno, it's certainly not available in many EU countries. Google, or call HMRC?
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A few years back I ordered 10 TEC (Peltier) devices from China that cost me just under 18GBP and the company I bought them off were doing a promo that gave free DHL shipping, but after the package hade been delivered I got an invoice from DHL because they estimated the shipping cost to be around 43GBP which when added to the declared value of the goods, in this case 10GBP meant I was being charged 20% of 53GBP plus the clearance fee which as I remember all came to a little under 27GBP.
When I contacted them about this they were initially not very helpful but when I pointed out that I had a receipt for the payment to the supplier they did agree to waive the whole invoice.
But this is the exception rather than the rule.
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I find you end up paying double what your parts cost, just for all this. I use post instead and wait weeks for the boat.
Even post can sometimes be subject to customs as they will open the odd package and assess the value and charge you accordingly. A few years ago I ordered a digital camera from USA for my sons birthday present and I can't recall how much I had to pay in customs fees but it almost doubled the price of the camera.
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When i bought the eevblog bm235 i payed clearance and 8 "aerials". But it got here very fast and i was not going to wait more for a meter. Dhl is very communicative polite but takes a bit the wallet.
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Hi,
About a week ago I've ordered 10 boards and a stencil from ALLPCB.COM . I've paid $37 for the boards, $13 for the stencil, plus $18.63 for shipping, fees, plus a discount, giving a grand total of $68.63, or 61.29€.
However, it seems that the Portuguese customs, still living in the stone age, declared the value to be 94.34€, and the VAT now is 21.23€ (a 6€ ripoff). But the worst is that now I have to pay to DHL 33.76€ plus VAT, yielding an added ripoff value of 63.22€, which by itself is more than what I already payed for the package.
Has anyone had such a ripoff with DHL? Really, doing business with this carrier is worse than doing business with thieves. IMHO, German companies such as DHL are the worst at thieving.
Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
Either show them the actual value and have it corrected or ask them to provide a calculation of how they arrived at 94,34 euro.
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ask them to provide a calculation of how they arrived at 94,34 euro.
They "estimated" shipping cost and slapped it on top of the declared value. Happens all of the time when I deal with them as a company. They just slap their own shipping estimation on top even though invoice containing shipping cost is provided every time. Though a business I don't care about that crap as I will claim the VAT back anyway. But as a private person it's really annoying.
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They "estimated" shipping cost and slapped it on top of the declared value. Happens all of the time when I deal with them as a company. They just slap their own shipping estimation on top even though invoice containing shipping cost is provided every time. Though a business I don't care about that crap as I will claim the VAT back anyway. But as a private person it's really annoying.
The shipping was already included.
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They "estimated" shipping cost and slapped it on top of the declared value. Happens all of the time when I deal with them as a company. They just slap their own shipping estimation on top even though invoice containing shipping cost is provided every time. Though a business I don't care about that crap as I will claim the VAT back anyway. But as a private person it's really annoying.
The shipping was already included.
I say that it does not matter. Often they just don't care, take a whole value (including shipping) and slap on top their own shipping estimation.
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Welcome to the real world. This is customs brokerage. They all do this. Next time, read the fine print.
No, it is not a matter of being the real world. FedEx doesn't charge such absurdity. In fact, never had any issues with FedEx, even with packages outside EU. Postal was never a problem too, even if the package was retained at customs. DHL is fraudulent, and always disrespects the value from the invoice, adding some extra plus VAT.
Also, fine print, where is it? I already paid the shipping. All I should've payed was the VAT based over the invoice value, and not based on some "reasonable" value they have concocted. The 33.76€ plus VAT on top of that doesn't justify, as they did nothing.
A few years back I ordered 10 TEC (Peltier) devices from China that cost me just under 18GBP and the company I bought them off were doing a promo that gave free DHL shipping, but after the package hade been delivered I got an invoice from DHL because they estimated the shipping cost to be around 43GBP which when added to the declared value of the goods, in this case 10GBP meant I was being charged 20% of 53GBP plus the clearance fee which as I remember all came to a little under 27GBP.
When I contacted them about this they were initially not very helpful but when I pointed out that I had a receipt for the payment to the supplier they did agree to waive the whole invoice.
But this is the exception rather than the rule.
Given the many cases and protests against how DHL operates in my country, it seems that the exception rules here in Portugal.
ask them to provide a calculation of how they arrived at 94,34 euro.
They "estimated" shipping cost and slapped it on top of the declared value. Happens all of the time when I deal with them as a company. They just slap their own shipping estimation on top even though invoice containing shipping cost is provided every time. Though a business I don't care about that crap as I will claim the VAT back anyway. But as a private person it's really annoying.
They basically took the opportunity to steal 6€. They had the invoice, the order screenshot and the payment, all pointing to the correct value. What they didn't had was intelligence. Now the case will be reported, and not to DHL. And they will have to justify the excessive service cost too, since I didn't ask them to do it, and customs takes care of that for free.
DHL is a ripoff, especially shipping from Asia:
Shipping Fee
Customs/Duties/Brokerage Fees
Taxes
Handling Fee $18 for me
I find you end up paying double what your parts cost, just for all this. I use post instead and wait weeks for the boat.
You could try to get the declared value corrected.
Lesson learned. I will do that next time. In any case, if the manufacturer/seller only presents DHL or UPS, I'll just look for another manufacturer that offers postal. I don't negotiate with robbers, neither feed them.
Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
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They basically took the opportunity to steal 6€. They had the invoice, the order screenshot and the payment, all pointing to the correct value. What they didn't had was intelligence. Now the case will be reported, and not to DHL. And they will have to justify the excessive service cost too, since I didn't ask them to do it, and customs takes care of that for free.
Well, they've "stolen" it for the sake of Portugal. Country keeps that extra VAT paid, not them. Brokerage fee is on the high side though.
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I say that it does not matter. Often they just don't care, take a whole value (including shipping) and slap on top their own shipping estimation.
Of course it matters. This isn't some magical process. It's a simple calculation.
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I say that it does not matter. Often they just don't care, take a whole value (including shipping) and slap on top their own shipping estimation.
Of course it matters. This isn't some magical process. It's a simple calculation.
I say they often don't care if there was shipping cost in the invoice. They just take the whole figure written and slap their own shipping on top. Have you ever seen "statistical value" in customs declaration from which taxes are then calculated. Basically means they can shit on your invoice as they wish.
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am going to die before i get why custom is the thing that exist. i payed the equivalent of 120$ for custom for non-commercial invoice with a declared value of 50$ (GNSS modules samples) and one week delay, this was with UPS, they didn't take a single dollar, basically cause they didn't have to deliver i moved to their warehouse and i finished transit with custom myself.
With FedEx i endup paying around 200$ for 4 unpopulated PCB sample with no commercial value declared value 20$, FedEx took 130$ for transit and delivery and 3 f***ing week delay :horse:
i didn't have much trouble with DHL so far.
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I'd suggest contacting DHL customer directly and showing them proof with your order or receipt that the items costed less. I've done this before in the past and they've refunded me the difference.
Having said that... if the paperwork from the supplier had a higher amount on it then any courier you used would charged VAT and duties on the higher amount. You may also want to ask the supplier which tariff code he's using sometimes you choose a different tariff code which won't have a duty fee or a lesser duty fee.
Joy Torres
Instruments 4 Engineers Ltd
www.instruments4engineers.com (http://www.instruments4engineers.com)
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I second your experience with DHL.
DHL's customs fees are obscene. Every time.
What could explain weird VAT amounts: I think they may actually include their own shipping fees in the grand total before applying VAT, which may seem right on a purely accounting point of view but something you're not necessarily expecting. This also represents the total seen by customs and thus you're not waived customs taxes on goods that you thought you would be.
Then they have added fees to handle customs fees and files on top of that.
So typically for a $50 product bought in China and shipped via DHL you will end up paying practically twice that. Had that experience with my last order at PCBWay.
Other private shipping companies are pretty similar, but IME, DHL is the most expensive.
The only way you can drastically reduce overall shipping costs is to use postal services. From China, it can take 3 or more weeks though... so...
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I say that it does not matter. Often they just don't care, take a whole value (including shipping) and slap on top their own shipping estimation.
Of course it matters. This isn't some magical process. It's a simple calculation.
I say they often don't care if there was shipping cost in the invoice. They just take the whole figure written and slap their own shipping on top. Have you ever seen "statistical value" in customs declaration from which taxes are then calculated. Basically means they can shit on your invoice as they wish.
Basically, that's corruption 101. They can argue that a product costs trice or four times the original cost, and slap that. That is extortion and I don't agree.
I'd suggest contacting DHL customer directly and showing them proof with your order or receipt that the items costed less. I've done this before in the past and they've refunded me the difference.
Having said that... if the paperwork from the supplier had a higher amount on it then any courier you used would charged VAT and duties on the higher amount. You may also want to ask the supplier which tariff code he's using sometimes you choose a different tariff code which won't have a duty fee or a lesser duty fee.
Joy Torres
Instruments 4 Engineers Ltd
www.instruments4engineers.com (http://www.instruments4engineers.com)
They had their chance and they knew well what they were doing. I prefer to complain about DHL to the authorities and damage their reputation. If one causes damage to me in any way, I'll simply damage them trice. Complaining to DHL only would give them the opportunity to come up with sorry excuses. I don't support corrupt companies, even if they are from Germany.
I second your experience with DHL.
DHL's customs fees are obscene. Every time.
What could explain weird VAT amounts: I think they may actually include their own shipping fees in the grand total before applying VAT, which may seem right on a purely accounting point of view but something you're not necessarily expecting. This also represents the total seen by customs and thus you're not waived customs taxes on goods that you thought you would be.
Then they have added fees to handle customs fees and files on top of that.
So typically for a $50 product bought in China and shipped via DHL you will end up paying practically twice that. Had that experience with my last order at PCBWay.
Other private shipping companies are pretty similar, but IME, DHL is the most expensive.
The only way you can drastically reduce overall shipping costs is to use postal services. From China, it can take 3 or more weeks though... so...
You summed up well. They are a bunch of thieves. For the shipping alone I ended up paying 50€ (20€ to the supplier, plus 30€ for "services" I didn't asked for - ransom?). And the package ended up damaged, and it was clearly dragged onto the floor. Next time, postal it is. I'll avoid DHL like the plague.
Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
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This is why I tend to go with suppliers who lie on the customs declaration.
COMMERCIAL SAMPLES $7
Written on the 5kg box of shite :-DD
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This is why I tend to go with suppliers who lie on the customs declaration.
COMMERCIAL SAMPLES $7
Written on the 5kg box of shite :-DD
Would not work in Latvia.
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I say they often don't care if there was shipping cost in the invoice. They just take the whole figure written and slap their own shipping on top. Have you ever seen "statistical value" in customs declaration from which taxes are then calculated. Basically means they can shit on your invoice as they wish.
Did you import these 7kg PCBs for hobby (very unlikely, but who knows!) or business?
If latest, you didn't pay any custom duties and paid VAT (21% right? aka 90.75) that you can claim back, isn't?
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"Yes, Macbeth, we at DHL/FedEx/UPS have got our crack team of customs brokers onto the case. We have determined you owe HMRC £6 in VAT. For our magnanimous service you didn't even ask for, we now invoice you £25 + £6 = £31"
As far as I know, that's apply to UK Royal Mail as well, who will happy to meet you in their collection office with open arms and accept extra VAT service charge £13, for example, for stuff imported from US...
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Royal Mail charge £8 + VAT. You can pay it online and they deliver next day so at least they're doing a half arsed service for the money.
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This is why I tend to go with suppliers who lie on the customs declaration.
COMMERCIAL SAMPLES $7
Written on the 5kg box of shite :-DD
This is common practice, but obviously businesses that ship a lot via a private shipping company they have negotiated deals with don't want to risk getting in trouble for lying too often on declarations and ending up getting a bad reputation. Some packages ARE opened by customs. When you send tens of thousands of packages a year, it's bound to happen on quite a few of them.
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9 out of 10 of my ALLPCB orders skip through without any customs charge. Occasionally i need to pay something, but never that much. The last time it was just £18 on a £90 order.
I dont begrudge it as it seems criminal that so much stuff from china escapes taxation in entirety. Mainly because the sender lies on the declaration.
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9 out of 10 of my ALLPCB orders skip through without any customs charge. Occasionally i need to pay something, but never that much. The last time it was just £18 on a £90 order.
I dont begrudge it as it seems criminal that so much stuff from china escapes taxation in entirety. Mainly because the sender lies on the declaration.
Did you use DHL? Or was it via post? I would bet you didn't use DHL.
Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
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9 out of 10 of my ALLPCB orders skip through without any customs charge. Occasionally i need to pay something, but never that much. The last time it was just £18 on a £90 order.
I dont begrudge it as it seems criminal that so much stuff from china escapes taxation in entirety. Mainly because the sender lies on the declaration.
I've had loads of stuff from China that is totally declared get through. The HMRC do not target anything from China - but they hate USA and Israel in my experience. Never use Parcelfarce in the UK (this will be "Express" airmail) - always just use regular airmail. Unlike proper couriers who actually deliver goods quickly, but then send stupid invoices later, the likes of Parcelfarce and Royal Mail will illegally* hold your goods to ransom and demand you pay their ludicrous fees and taxes before they release the goods for delivery.
The Parcelfarce demand is by LETTER POST so delays your fantastic 24/48 hour delivery by almost a week with the back and forth for them to release it. Parcelfarce WILL ALWAYS QUARANTINE YOUR GOODS then demand £13 + an absurd VAT calculation.
Never ever use any express postal union service into the UK, the regular postal first class airmail will actually get the goods to you quicker. They may not come into the airport quicker, once they are here they pretty much tend to be delivered within the normal post and without all the customs bollocks. Worst case is the fee is £8.
Of course if you really need stuff quick then commercial couriers it is - they will not hold your stuff to ransom but will invoice you.
* It was always considered a serious, even capital offence to interfere with the distribution of the Royal Mail in the UK. When the RM was privatised I believe parliament amended the laws that actually allows them to hold your goods to ransom. Commercial couriers do not have this privilege.
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I don't like DHL after my experiences.
I try make sure when I order to avoid DHL and ParcelFarce if possible.
I call it "Deliveries Held Late"
One phone call and they said they were bending over backwards to help me.
When my order did arrive all the drives got smashed up on one occasion.
After the parcel was picked up to return they lost it but I got my money back either ways.
On another like frequently with Parcelfarce they insisted I wasn't in and that they did arrive but my camera showed no van arrived on the street at said times.
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At AllPCB I want to order a few small pcbs.
The DHL or HK shipping cost shows "Free".
The "PCB Cost" shows $18, and the "Subtotal" shows $18.
Any hint how the final invoice looks like? Do they add something tho the "Subtotal"? Not to overshoot the custom/VAT free limit..
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DHL or Dick Head Logistics as I called them in an email to them are rip off merchants, tried to tell me that I have to pay VAT on something because the seller put the price down wrong, I told them to send it back to them I am not paying, now they keep trying to send me letters with invoices, the VAT is £6, their charge is an extra £11 for "admin" - bollocks, I ain't paying it, I did also use the words extortion and daylight robbery.
Interestingly the tracking number says it's delivered signed for by next door - completely different name to next door - who have confirmed they have not signed or accepted anything and that the DHL driver did indeed call in but said that unless payment was made he couldn't leave it with them, which is fair enough and they certainly didn't pay it.
Useless much?! They kept threatening to send the package back, so I said carry on, I saved myself £2 by getting the PCB's elsewhere without customs charges.
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To the UK users:
I tried to understand if there are ways to avoid the DHL fees which they say is because they need to pay the VAT and crap to HMRC before getting the money from you. Apparently the way is to have a Deferment Account with HMRC so that they can charge you there. Can you get this account as a private person or sole trader, or is it only for companies? It kinda mentions only business use, but it's not that clear if you're a sole trader..
When I lived in Finland, DHL had an option to declare the goods yourself, in which case it took a day or two longer but you did not need to pay the extra fees. I think it was also possible to create an account with DHL there to smooth the operation. (But otherwise dealing with DHL there was equally miserable).
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There are import limits (ie. 15pounds in UK, 22E in EU) and in the moment you overshoot it, the DHL immediately jumps on the VAT/Custom/Processing Fees wagon.
You cannot avoid that, as the legal import limits for every state in the world are implemented (and regularly updated) in DHL's IT systems (including daily exchange rates).
The other question is, what are the "shipment cost".
AllPCB claims "Free DHL worldwide shipping" but that is just a marketing slogan. They will discount you $25 in the final calculation, as they "cover $25 shipment cost" (until you reach some parcel weight, then you start to pay from $11 up) with each shipment with DHL or HK.
For example, with 5 small pcbs you get a Total $18, and you will see "Shipment cost ($25): $0.0" written in their web ordering app. As I've been asking you above, I would be interested to know what you will find on the invoice attached to the parcel (as the shipment cost adds to the total for custom purposes).
AllPCB will also tell you, that DHL "may charge you with additional fees" in case your location is "remote". Now, what does it mean "remote" for DHL?? Therefore, even you are below the 15pounds/22E limit on the final invoice, DHL may charge "remote location fee" and you are well over the legal limit, thus they start to process you happily with all that lovely vat/custom/processing fees.
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Recently I also had to deal with that "service fee". Basically they wanted 12.50 € + VAT for handling 19.75 € of VAT on an import I made.
I wrote an email explaining that I need to have them provide me with more specific information about what real costs are involved by handling said amount.
The first reply was a generic reply TLDR: "you need to pay because that is what the invoice says"
Then I explained, that usually the cost for a non-interest-bearing monetary bond you would have to supply for a deferment account is about 1 % interest on the deferred amount per year and that I do not see the connection to the amount I was charged.
Got the exact same answer like before.
Send the exact same email as before.
New answer(?): "costs on deferment accounts are opportunity costs"
I sincerely thanked them for supplying me with an irrelevant, but true fact to my initial question and provided an irrelevant but true fact in return, asking to please provide the information I requested.
At that point they just gave up and told me they could not provide that information "for internal security policy related reasons", but would detract the fee out of good will this time. I was set to waste as much of their time and money as possible before paying the requested amount but this outcome is fine for me too. :)
Sometimes, being the customer from hell can be very soothing.
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DHL has "the charging fees" for delivering a piece of paper hardwired in its DNA :)
The DHL's founder started his great business with transporting customs documents between San Francisco harbor and Honolulu harbor in his attache case (traveled nonstop in a regular passenger airliner), such the documents arrived at customs offices before the freight, thus enabled the goods to pass through customs with less delay.
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DHL has "the charging fees" for delivering a piece of paper hardwired in its DNA :)
The DHL's founder started his great business with transporting customs documents between San Francisco harbor and Honolulu harbor in his attache case (traveled nonstop in a regular passenger airliner), such the documents arrived at customs offices before the freight, thus enabled the goods to pass through customs with less delay.
What customs exists between honolulu and san franscisco? both are US cities. Maybe you meant Hong Kong?
edit: OK answering my own question, it seems there was a business opportunity in fast airmail of documents between the cities not in "international" trade between the two. That does explain the love for additional handling fees.
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The DHL founder started with an express delivery of a document called "Original bill of lading" related to the ship cargo between SF<->Honolulu.. The standard postal service was slow and the purchasers of the goods shipped were happy to have the document in their hands sooner (the carrier will release the goods only to the party who holds the original bill of lading), as for example, based on the document they were able to sell the goods to somebody else long before their cargo arrived to the destination port.