Management requests and pay grades

[IanB]

Still if it isn't relevant to the job, it's of limited use. Don't get me wrong, the degree (whatever it is, within reason) proves intelligence and the motivation to learn but I question whether HR departments get that.  He should either look for another job, better suited to his qualification or study to get the job he wants.

Not at all. A degree is a degree! It's also a degree in a technical subject, not a "soft" subject like media studies.

HR departments may act as the gatekeeper to new entrants, but once you are in the door it all depends on your immediate managers.

It's really important to sell yourself and not do yourself down. I really think the OP is being treated poorly and should be commanding more money. It's not right to be paid the wage of a store person while doing a much more demanding and highly skilled job.

[Zero999]

Still if it isn't relevant to the job, it's of limited use. Don't get me wrong, the degree (whatever it is, within reason) proves intelligence and the motivation to learn but I question whether HR departments get that.  He should either look for another job, better suited to his qualification or study to get the job he wants.

Not at all. A degree is a degree! It's also a degree in a technical subject, not a "soft" subject like media studies.

HR departments may act as the gatekeeper to new entrants, but once you are in the door it all depends on your immediate managers.

It's really important to sell yourself and not do yourself down. I really think the OP is being treated poorly and should be commanding more money. It's not right to be paid the wage of a store person while doing a much more demanding and highly skilled job.

Hell yes, I agree. If I was looking for someone and a CV landed on my desk with a good degree, in a proper technical subject like that, I'd put it to the top of the pile!

Unfortunately, I don't have much confidence in the HR department in getting the CV to my desk. 

I've encountered a similar thing before. A fully qualified physician, with a good career behind him, decided medicine wasn't for him and wanted to go into engineering. Even though he did go on to study an engineering degree, he still ended up doing a job, which paid much less than what he was worth.

[vk6zgo]

Maybe they are vetting you with the project to see how well you handle stress, organisation or other management qualities. Preparing you for a promotion.

At one point, I had to tell management, that I'm not going to do a certain job. It using me as an "emergency production technician". you know, the one, which requires you to use a screwdriver, not your brain.

You do, i hope, realise that such usage is not mutually exclusive?

[rstofer]

I would do the second. Tell them if doing the job, you cannot meet their quality expectancy, and nor your salary expectancy.
The later you say it, the more damage it will do, and if you seriously think you are the single point of failure, the trouble will reveal itself sooner or later. So does you complaints on your income.
So why not make it clear?

I would tell them that "Absolutely, I want to give this a shot!".  "It might not be as capable as something we could buy but it might make a good 'proof of concept' and we can improve it later.".

No negativity, just a realization that a one man show is less than optimal but, even with the concerns, you are up for the challenge!

[abraxa]

To me, it sounds like you brought up the pay simply because you're not happy. Here in Germany, people jest that wages are sometimes mere "Schmerzensgeld", which can be translated as compensation for personal suffering - meaning that people only do the job because the compensation is high enough. From your initial post I get the impression that this project would be overwhelming because the complexitiy and business risk amount to substantial pressure that's on you and you alone. If that's the case then I'd argue that this is not an opportunity for growth and learning but instead a pathway to endless frustration and unhappiness. I'd also argue that the ability to create such a business database solution isn't a goldmine. To me, such a conglomerate of office applications used for business-critical decision making can only end up being a mess. It would be better to use a proper ERP software suite and populate it with the data using defined interfaces. But that would cost money, which they most likely won't want to spend. You're cheaper. And if it all works, they know who'll be in charge of maintaining it.
You say that the risk is high because it's a one-man-show. I agree, but this isn't going to change even when the project is "done". If you quit the company, they'll be back to square one all the same because no one will be able to maintain the mess.

since being moved over to the engineering and fabrication department, nothing changed. In fact my wage hasn't changed in the last 5 years

Why should it? A company wants the best labor it can get for the cheapest price. You're not demanding a higher price for your labor, so they continue giving you what you asked for initially. No demands - no raise. If you ask, the worst thing that can happen is that they say no and you continue receiving your current wage.

I'd say you have two ways to make a leap in wage: a) become irreplaceable to the company and make them painfully aware of it (one-man-show, as above) or b) change employers and ask for a higher salary right from the start. If you do neither and only ask your current boss for a raise, they'll most likely only give you peanuts, if anything at all.

Having a biochem degree while doing CS/EE work is however an issue. Figuring out which career path you want to choose is the first step imo. Getting adequate proof that you are able to do what you claim you're able to do is next. Otherwise, HR will dismiss your application right away, as others have hinted at already.

[rstofer]

In the sailing world it is said that "The difference between adventure and ordeal is attitude!"  Sure, the project will probably end up far short of the goals because, among other things, there is no formal definition of the requirements.  That doesn't change the fact that the OP would be getting paid to increase his skills.

Different topic:  I don't see much future in asking for a raise.  I never have...  If my employer doesn't think I'm worth more money, asking for it won't change their mind.  It's time to move on!

Another mistake to avoid:  Never accept a counter-offer.  If the company didn't think you were worth the money before you got another offer, why do they think so now?  Ultimately, accepting will be a source of friction and it just isn't worth it.

"Schmerzensgeld":  Interesting word and more applicable than not.  It's great when you enjoy your job and it provides enough to more than cover your needs.  But, more often than not, if they weren't paying you, you wouldn't show up.  That's why they call it work and not 'play'.

[Rick Law]

...

since being moved over to the engineering and fabrication department, nothing changed. In fact my wage hasn't changed in the last 5 years

Why should it? A company wants the best labor it can get for the cheapest price. You're not demanding a higher price for your labor, so they continue giving you what you asked for initially. No demands - no raise. If you ask, the worst thing that can happen is that they say no and you continue receiving your current wage.

I'd say you have two ways to make a leap in wage: a) become irreplaceable to the company and make them painfully aware of it (one-man-show, as above) or b) change employers and ask for a higher salary right from the start. If you do neither and only ask your current boss for a raise, they'll most likely only give you peanuts, if anything at all.
...

I agree but for the word "irreplaceable".  The more difficulty it is to replace you, the less likely you will be promoted to a better/bigger/fatter job!  Because your old job still needs doing and they can't find a replacement once you are promoted away.

Substitute the word "irreplaceable" with "valuable".  And, whenever your contribution exceeds your compensation, remind your boss: "hey, I will get it done for you as I always do.  But, soon, I like my job title and my pay reflect that."

There comes a time when you must throwing down the gauntlet: "hey boss, I am looking..." to "hey boss, I have an interview, I will be out next Tuesday, sure you want to loose me?"

That said, keep in mind, some bosses don't react well to that.  When you throw down the gauntlet, be prepare you may loose the fight.  He may be looking for a replacement who would be more loyal.

...
Having a biochem degree while doing CS/EE work is however an issue. Figuring out which career path you want to choose is the first step imo. Getting adequate proof that you are able to do what you claim you're able to do is next. Otherwise, HR will dismiss your application right away, as others have hinted at already.

I would also add that it is market dependent.  Different geographical area and/or different times are what I meant by different market.  When employments are plentiful, employers are less picky with paper-qualification.

[cprobertson1]

Before I go into rant-mode: just wanted to say "thanks" to everybody! Lots of very good advice there - going to give it another proper read-over tonight, which will hopefully help me choose my future course of action!


And now for the rant...

I have just reached a new level of utter frustration.

On Sunday morning I received an email with both "EMERGENCY!" and "URGENT!" in the subject line.

An email with "EMERGENCY!" and "URGENT!" in the subject line came in early on Sunday morning from Manager-X.

It contained something to the sound of "HALP! We need a prototype made up right away to get an idea of how this will work in order to decide if it's worth the time - client X is coming in on Monday Afternoon and wants to see it - can you please come in immediately? We'll give you overtime! PLEEEEEEEEEAAAAASE!"

So, I put in 12 hours shift (at double-time at least) yesterday and another 3 hours work this morning to get a miniature front-end made up that runs an internal SQL server running a massive, horrible and buggy flat dataset and I was thoroughly pleased I managed to piece something together so quickly.

I showed it to the site director and he was pleased - so we took it to the meeting and... the client wasn't pleased - this wasn't what he had been promised...

And that's when the BS hit new levels - manager-X turns to me and says:
"What is this? Why have you made a database?"

I can now safely summarise the series of events:

-Manager wanted a FORM made up for spreadsheet data input
-Manager asked me to make a DATABASE to a rather vague specification
-Manager asked me to add some features to the vague specification
-Manager brags to client about it (before it's even made)
-Manager begs me to make said DATABASE ASAP so he can show it off
-I made a DATABASE prototype to his rather vague specification
-Client says this isn't what he had been described
-Manager complains that I made a DATABASE to his specification
-Manager asks why I didn't make a FORM like he had asked... in front of the client

Me -->


I am absolutely scunnert with this (good scottish word that )

And that is when things got interesting...  afterward, Manager-X decided to be a vindictive little wallaper (another good Scottish word ) and called my supervisor and manager to try and deduct my pay from the weekend (amounting to £190 I might add), claiming I hadn't done what I was asked and that I should be disciplined.

Well of course, the second my email trail proved that I had done exactly as asked (within the vague parameters provided) my manager was straight on the phone to give him a verbal lashing: a 15-minute long riot act utilising every word you don't hear in polite company at least twice.

It was a glorious retribution after a rather crappy experience!

I've also been told to ignore any requests from said manager in the future. Turns out my supervisor and manager don't like him either.


This concludes "The escapades of the office politics". Tune in next week for more adventures, action, love, violence, frustration, and drama - until then - just remember - Database == "Form" == "anything containing data"!


Seriously, though. I think I need a drink!

It's not usually this bad - honest!

Usually it's a simple case of "Hey, can you do this" - "Sure" - "Aw you made that for me? That's excellent - it works beautifully - thanks!" - usually office politics don't factor into it at all!


As I said earlier though - change is coming! I reckon it's time to seriously think about vacating this place. That will be a tale for another day I'm sure

Thanks again everybody! I'll report back later tonight with replies to the various comments

[H.O]

What? I don't know what the average salary in your particular region is but £190 for 12 hours overtime on a weekend doesn't sound like a lot at all.
And then the douchebag asking for your urgent help wanted to take back the money because HIS client didn't want what HE asked YOU to do? What a character...

[IanB]

Wow, what a story. I'm glad your manager stood up for you. I was ready to think you worked for a toxic organization, but maybe it's just one bad egg on the staff.

[tggzzz]

When I was in a contract R&D company, it was folklore that the (potential) clients that "burned hottest" by wanting something urgently were also those that "fizzled out" because they rapidly lost interest. OTOH those that arrived in reasonable time without a panic were often most profitable.

It is always worth remembering, and reciting when appropriate, that "bad planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part".

It sounds like you have done yourself proud with the people that matter. That may count for something in the future.

Beware of the "grass is greener" syndrome. If you decide to jump ship, how will you determine whether the next company will be a better company to work for. They won't tell you (of course!), so you will have to find ways of eliciting that information. Personally I ask lots and lots and lots of questions.

[NivagSwerdna]

Just my 2p worth...

@cprobertson1  IMHO you are not doing your job!  You are allowing yourself to get side-tracked into the whims of other managers and if you don't do something about it then it will probably all end in tears.

You should talk to your own manager... work out expectations and try and come up with some set of deliverables you can do for your own manager which in turn will show your contribution/development, those contributions can be the basis for a discussion about £££/progression etc.

It sounds like you are going to fail, and fail quite soon!, if you don't concentrate on the real stakeholder!

[matts-uk]

It sounds like you got off lightly.  They did not want a form or a database or a spreadsheet.  They wanted you to build a rod for your own back.  Unfortunately this particular story repeats more often than an episode of Big Bang on E4.

It may help you in future to remember these words.
"Thanks, I am really flattered but what you need is a professional/dedicated software developer.  I only dabble."

If you want a career in software development, go get it.  There are plenty of junior positions out there.  A couple of well defined, limited scope projects on your CV should help enormously.  If you do take that route, I bet there is not a software house out there who would give you the project you described as your first task, entirely on your own. Think of it as a measure of what a poor proposition it was.

Learning when and how to say no, is very much the life skill.

[cprobertson1]

Oooft! So much good advice here xD

@IanB: luckily this particular branch of the company is split into two sites - with a dedicated fabrication site which is where I'm housed - and pretty much everything else handled at the other site. The organisation is a little toxic in places - but most of the toxicants reside at the other site - so there's at least a buffer between us!

As I mentioned though - it's not usually this bad - probably just a bad apple on the crew more than anything else (in this case)

I really do need to stop underselling myself actually - it may relate to working here that's lowered my confidence in myself
@matts-uk: sage words I might consider a career in software development - I'm still debating the future career path - I've got quite a few options open to me actually so I'm rather spoiled for choice!
@NivagSwerdna: It is true - but at the same time that's sort of how this particular company has always worked: periodically you get a "techie" as they tend to be called - and whenever there's a problem on an excel sheet they're the one they call (though I can't help but wonder if I should start routing them through to the IT helpdesk... though IT might hate me for it )
@tggzzz: There are a couple of people I'm habitually cautious with - that is if they ask me to do something, I leave it a week or two before actually pursuing it - because chances are they've forgotten about it and moved onto the next "big idea"
@H.O: I just worked back my salary to an hourly rate and it turns out I get a paid a little above minimum: but very slightly below the regional average.

Aye, this particular manager apparently has a history of being a bit of a <thoroughly Scottish explicative> - but I've been isolated from him enough that I've never really been affected by it despite making him up some excel sheets in the past.

@abraxa: "Schmerzensgeld" - I like it Reminds me of an old saying (though I can't say where this saying came from...) - "Some people stop searching because they are happy - while others stop searching because they get paid enough to be unhappy"

It would seem, as I mentioned earlier, that I really need to pick a career path and focus on it.

@Hero999: "Unfortunately, I don't have much confidence in the HR department in getting the CV to my desk.  " - ah, yes - that is one of the many obstacles to be overcome!

See, I've always assumed a relevant degree to be superior to an irrelevant technical degree when it came to HR - even if the degrees overlap (which technically means they aren't irrelevant but you know what I mean).

I suspect most HR folks seeing a technical degree don't realise that pretty much every scientific (or applied science) degree requires training in mathematics, statistics, data processing, lab procedures (often including cleanroom practices), critical thinking and scientific methodology - but unless you were trained in one of those fields you tend to assume they're very narrowly focused on their named subject matter simply because you don't know what it involves.

Ah well - that's the way the system is set up - just have to live with it (and write that in the CV and hope that HR don't skim past it )


One final note - which I will file under "hilarious" because the alternative is that I scream (which will disturb the other folks in the office).

Another manager has just approached my manager (at least they're going through the right channels) - asking if I could make a form to handle cost breakdowns for------wait a minute this is the same form that manager-X wanted me to make! What a coincidence!

[tggzzz]

- I'm still debating the future career path - I've got quite a few options open to me actually so I'm rather spoiled for choice!

I was at that stage after 3 years in my first job, particularly whether I should stay technical or go into management/sales.

I decided "what should I do?" was the wrong question, because I didn't have the information. The right question was "how can I find out what I want to do?"

Once I'd sorted that out, I looked for and found an organisation where I could try everything and see what I actually did enjoy. That was a contract R&D organisation, and I eventually chose to stay technical. YMMV, of course.

[brucehoult]

@Hero999: "Unfortunately, I don't have much confidence in the HR department in getting the CV to my desk.  " - ah, yes - that is one of the many obstacles to be overcome!

See, I've always assumed a relevant degree to be superior to an irrelevant technical degree when it came to HR - even if the degrees overlap (which technically means they aren't irrelevant but you know what I mean).

A very key thing is NEVER make a job application through the standard cookie-cutter HR channels.

Find out who you'd actually be working with and google them a bit. Send them an email saying you're thinking about applying for a job there. Ideally get someone they already know to introduce you. Ask them if you can buy them a beer after work.

If you get a potential colleague or manager to think that you might be a good fit for the job then *they* will either take your CV to HR or else tell HR to expect your CV and put it on top of the pile.

I've only in my 32 year and counting career ever found one job via the "proper" HR channel.

[IanB]

It may help you in future to remember these words.
"Thanks, I am really flattered but what you need is a professional/dedicated software developer.  I only dabble."

Some other very important words to remember are: "Have you cleared it with my manager?"  Especially if a request comes from a completely different department.