Author Topic: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?  (Read 5865 times)

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Offline ColdPowerTopic starter

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2020, 09:58:25 pm »
Right, apparently you need explanation, and thanks for offending me!

1. No, I didn't buy them at good price, compared to current production, quite the opposite.
2. In my dictionary obsolete doesn't mean past expiration date
3. I've been trying to contact DK live chat all morning with no luck, will post once I hear from them
4. How is asking if a company did the right thing trashing? You have a really sick understanding of the world, which I'm sorry, but doesn't make right your behaviour to others.
5. No, shockingly I'm not looking for freebies through eevblog's forum.

Apologies for the off-topic to everyone that's here to actually help, especially to Jay_Diddy_B for providing the key info on this topic, which the above person failed to read as it seems.
 

Offline thermistor-guy

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2020, 05:02:31 am »
Can you please post pictures and tell how you calculated their age?

By Digi-key's own repack label, dated 2013. I'll try decipher the date codes as well.

I am surprised you received stock this old. This is a question for Digi-Key: can they explain why your parts date back to 2013.

In manufacturing and distribution, First-In-First-Out handling of inventory is a big deal, and normally it's strictly enforced. No system is perfect -
old stock, can, incorrectly, get stranded in the warehouse, while newer stock (of the same item) continues to ship as normal. Stocktakes usually pick
this up, but not always.

An example of what can happen (not saying it did happen here). Supplier orders a 3000-piece reel, but gets a 5000-piece reel. Supplier sells 3000 qty
in multiple cut-tape orders. Inventory system then shows zero stock. Part is marked obsolete, so no more orders. Partial reel of qty=2000 sits there
until next stocktake. Stocktake detects the partial reel, puts it aside in a discrepancy/quarantine bin. Eventually staff investigate the discrepancy.
Reel looks ok, so back it goes into a normal bin, with inventory count adjusted to 2000. Parts are now a few years old (but not eight) and
available for sale.

Another example (again, not saying it did happen). Reel goes missing: misplaced in another bin, barcode on reel doesn't read properly so reel stays
misplaced for a while. Inventory manually adjusted to zero. Part obsolete, no more orders. Reel eventually recognized as misplaced. Staff return it to
the correct bin and readjust inventory count. Parts are now a few years old and available for sale.

Apart from shelf life of electrolytics, there is the question of solderability - will the leads of the old parts solder properly, without a lot of manual touch-up?
I once worked for an OEM that would reject old parts for production, simply over that issue. It's worth asking Digi_Key about the 2013 date, if only
because of solderability concerns.
 

Offline ColdPowerTopic starter

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2020, 10:17:27 am »
Thank you for your input, that really makes a lot of sense and your point of solderability is another possible concern especially if storage conditions were not optimal, but I believe DK does what's needed for that. This case really is probably an extreme example, as caps apparently date as back as 2011 and point here isn't trashing DK (I love DK, it has always been my preferred supplier and I often have paid over the odds just to buy from them!), but checking if anyone else has noticed the same  - is it an isolated case or is there a problem with stock control. If someone had a delivery recently, could you check and share? I just got few other caps delivered (NOT obsolete, as this seem to justify it for some people!) which were just over two and a half years old, which isn't a shockingly lot, but as it appears, still well past the Panasonic's 12 month expiration date.

So if you ordered caps recently, please have a look and share what you have.
 

Offline exe

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2020, 01:25:58 pm »
I'd expect discounts on such products. I like buying parts that marked on tme "until stock lasts" as usually it means a good deal. Although sometimes it goes not very smooth. Like, I wanted to buy some cheap obsolete polymer caps, they had only 9 left in stock, but minimum purchase quantity was 10. It took me a lot of time back and forth with support to resolve it. So, I saved maybe 10 or 20 euros on caps, but spent hours :).
 

Online wraper

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2020, 01:33:02 pm »
I'd expect discounts on such products. I like buying parts that marked on tme "until stock lasts" as usually it means a good deal. Although sometimes it goes not very smooth. Like, I wanted to buy some cheap obsolete polymer caps, they had only 9 left in stock, but minimum purchase quantity was 10. It took me a lot of time back and forth with support to resolve it. So, I saved maybe 10 or 20 euros on caps, but spent hours :).
Most distros charge only for quantity dispatched, so you can by 10. Remaining 1 will never arrive and you won't be charged for it. TME charges full amount right away, maybe when they realize they cannot order them, they will simply make a refund.
 

Offline ColdPowerTopic starter

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2020, 02:11:30 pm »
I'd expect discounts on such products. I like buying parts that marked on tme "until stock lasts" as usually it means a good deal. Although sometimes it goes not very smooth. Like, I wanted to buy some cheap obsolete polymer caps, they had only 9 left in stock, but minimum purchase quantity was 10. It took me a lot of time back and forth with support to resolve it. So, I saved maybe 10 or 20 euros on caps, but spent hours :).

I always hope my neighbours can't hear my blessings every time I get to place an order with TME  :-DD Still can't get the hang of their parking, orders, basket without add to basket button - it's a hit and miss every time. Admittedly they have great prices sometimes not only on last stock parts, but on active ones as well. My only issue with them (when I manage to actually order) on multiple occasions has been packaging (one of the great things with DK - have NEVER had damaged parts due to bad packaging). Last time they even sent full tray of power transistors with no ESD protection whatsoever  :palm:
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2020, 02:28:17 pm »
TME is fundamentally really good with good pricing and fast deliveries, but their website screams "consultants sold us ERP and SAP and a few other three-letter acronyms" all over. I mostly find that ridiculously funny but there is real chance it causing PTSD to some customers who have had to work with/around said systems and possibly burnt off doing that.

It's surprisingly responsive, through, for being what it is, and you can get the job done (i.e., I have always managed to place an order and print an invoice), but there is always that lingering fear that all hell may break loose any time.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 02:30:33 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline exe

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2020, 05:47:39 pm »
Most distros charge only for quantity dispatched, so you can by 10. Remaining 1 will never arrive and you won't be charged for it. TME charges full amount right away, maybe when they realize they cannot order them, they will simply make a refund.

I couldn't put caps in the basket because it was not possible to order more than in stock, and min quantity was 10. They created a custom offer for me, which is after a few email back and forth I managed to accept and pay.
 

Offline mag_therm

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2020, 06:33:59 pm »
I intentionally buy some components from surplus.
Solderability with age is certainly an issue.

I am doing an old tube restoration today.
Somtimes the leads go brown when hot and the solder balls up.
Rubbing the capacitor leads with a dry paper towel until shiny before soldering helps.
Then paint with flux before soldering in.

Oh.. and mistakes happen
The cathode resistors  metering grid bias need to be 10 Ohm , I ordered 2 Watt 1%

The ones from surplus were coded:  brown black black white brown.
band 4 is a bright white, I compared with other gray and silver bands
I think that must be an obsolete code. They measure 0.1 Ohm instead of 10 Ohm

 Actually today,  0.1 Ohm should be coded:  brown black black gray brown.
And 10 Ohm should be brown black black gold brown.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2020, 10:46:03 pm »
2. In my dictionary obsolete doesn't mean past expiration date
"Obsolete" means a part isn't being made any more. I don't see how one can have an expectation of fresh stock of an item that's no longer being made.


Remember also that with electronic components, at (end product) manufacturing scale, a distributor SKU needs to absolutely, positively identify a specific variant of a specific part, not its successor or some other substitute. Sure, for most applications, the newer EEU-EB1J4R7S (DK SKU P13473-ND) will be a drop-in substitute for the EEU-EB1J4R7 (DK SKU P13146-ND) you ordered. But that's up to the (product) manufacturer to decide and validate, not the component manufacturer or the distributor. So if you order a P13146-ND, and they have one to sell you, that's what you are you going to get, not the newer version.

What I'm curious about is how you managed to order it, since they've presumably been obsolete for quite some time. Or are you actually saying you placed an order for P13473-ND but received P13146-ND instead?
 

Offline ColdPowerTopic starter

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2020, 12:47:39 am »
We got caught into that obsolete status, but: obsolete means exactly that the part isn't anymore manufactured or is planned to be stopped from manufacturing, for which the manufacturer would give as seen clear obsolescence notice of about an year. In this time the part may be marked as obsolete or last order, but that doesn't necessarily mean one should assume the stock to receive would be beyond recommended usage time frame and long past expiration date. As also pointed earlier, some series can have up to 42 months till expiration, which can be well past obsolescence date and again, doesn't mean parts are not recommended as viable for usage. Also as seen, expired caps are not recommended for use by the manufacturer, so whatever that part status, one would expect it to be usable according to manufacturer advise? This just as it happens is rather important with electrolytic caps, otherwise, not that important really, unless solderabitly is a concern as also pointed, but if you ever had to deal with 40+ years old soviet resistors, it wouldn't bother you that much  ;D

Hope that finally clears the obsolete part status.

And in answer of the question, I did order exactly P13146-ND and have earlier this year as well, part was available, but again, I didn't pay much attention to the obsolete status, as cleared above, it can be obsolete and well within recommended usage frame. I believe in this case that should have been automatically caught by the stock keeping, same as in a supermarket if the milk goes past exp. date, it's not sold anymore, although may still be drinkable...

Sorry, that got long, but lastly, as mentioned before, I have received active caps which I just now realise are in fact past expiration date as well, so seems like clearly this is just not at all tracked in the DK's stock keeping. I guess it is what it is and being small clients buying in hundreds not tens of thousands, we'd just have to accept it  :-\ I was just really surprised it actually happens and not an isolated case and even more, that a lot of people seem to actually find it normal and acceptable.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 12:51:34 am by ColdPower »
 

Online wraper

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2020, 12:54:57 am »
You have seen obsolete status, did not bother to check, bought it anyway. Then complain that you got component almost as fresh as it was technically possible.
Quote
till well past the Panasonic's 12 month expiration date.
It's not like past this date capacitor is bad. It's about recommended reconditioning. If capacitor will be used close to max voltage in a circuit without current limit, it would be the best to recondition them beforehand.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 12:59:52 am by wraper »
 

Offline ColdPowerTopic starter

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2020, 12:59:36 am »
You have seen obsolete status, did not bother to check, bought it anyway. Then complain that you got component almost as fresh as it was technically possible.
Quote
till well past the Panasonic's 12 month expiration date.

What you quote was for ACTIVE part, read again the post above as well re expectations!
 

Offline SVFeingold

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2020, 10:02:27 pm »
The way I see it, there is not much to be gained from discussing or arguing this. You got parts you're unhappy with. There are only 3 possible - and simple - solutions:

1) Accept that you won't be able to find new stock of this part and use them anyway.

2) Return them (or don't) and find new parts with equivalent specs.

3) Call Digikey. They have excellent customer service. You'll get a real person on the phone to whom you can explain the situation. If you are unhappy with the caps or feel you were misled I have zero doubt Digikey will refund them for you. Digikey made ONE mistake, ever, in my 10 years of dealing with them: they sent a part in the wrong SMT package. I called them and they swiftly apologized and immediately overnighted new parts for priority AM delivery at no cost to me. They will take care of you.

Caps sitting in cold storage with no electrical or thermal stress whatsoever are going to last decades. Even electrolytics, particularly high-quality electrolytics. A big part of the reason they "expire" in 48 months is so that manufacturers don't need to deal with angry OEMs for whom a 0.05% failure rate over 10 million parts is a big deal.
 

Offline ColdPowerTopic starter

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2020, 09:52:04 am »
The way I see it, there is not much to be gained from discussing or arguing this.

Not really looking for anything to gain or argue, as mentioned, was wondering how common this is and is it normal to happen. Although in my case this seem to be rather common to happen and replies show it's far from ideal for electrolytics, apparently most would see it as normal and would be okay with, so as stated earlier, we'd just have to accept it as normal, even if against manufacturer advice....

Also it wasn't the point of whether DK CS would refund or not, but again, rather  is it acceptable practice and what expectations for orders should be, but I believe we've answered that one too.
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2020, 12:05:59 pm »
Not really looking for anything to gain or argue, as mentioned, was wondering how common this is and is it normal to happen. Although in my case this seem to be rather common to happen and replies show it's far from ideal for electrolytics, apparently most would see it as normal and would be okay with, so as stated earlier, we'd just have to accept it as normal, even if against manufacturer advice....

Also it wasn't the point of whether DK CS would refund or not, but again, rather  is it acceptable practice and what expectations for orders should be, but I believe we've answered that one too.
Why you would do that?
If you fix your one-off a personal gadget and happy with outcome and any sort of measurements, why bother... but if you doing a product run that should be covered by warranty etc - why take any extra risks?  :-//



 

Offline PlainName

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2020, 01:25:57 pm »
Quote
Why you would do that?

Does there have to be a reason other than to expand one's knowledge, just to know?

 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: DIGIKEY sold me 8 Years Old electrolytic caps?!?
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2020, 03:14:18 pm »
The way I see it, there is not much to be gained from discussing or arguing this. You got parts you're unhappy with.
This is true for a great deal of discussions around here, but this is not one of them. If anything, at least it raises awareness for when one makes their next purchase and it is at least electronics related. 
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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