Author Topic: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees  (Read 39324 times)

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Offline miguelvp

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #150 on: January 26, 2016, 04:31:30 am »
Easy fix,

If you think there are a majority of like minded people, why don't you run for office and change things?

Or form your own alternative to health insurance companies, others are doing it, not to much success yet but hey at least they are trying instead of complaining about it.

As for the whole trade stuff, well we will see an increase of 0.5% income in the US for very little investment (relatively)

Global economics are a very complicated thing, just trying to tame that beast to stop the rapid fluctuations of the global economy that we have been experiencing lately is not an effort in vain. But if you have a better solution, just spill it out instead of just complaining.
 

Offline Rick LawTopic starter

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #151 on: January 26, 2016, 05:11:05 am »
"The future of education is clearly tiers"

Absolutely, as it is today. Communities should have the right to determine what education they want for their kids.

All very well and good if they can afford it. But what about the big chunks of our country - concerning which, its seems already to have been decided, in "politically sensitive" discussions in Geneva, already decided, it seems, will be the losers in the globalization game? 
...

Hey, CDEV, why do you keep on bringing up these "discussion in Geneva..."  I don't expect future presidents to be like the nutcase we got now.

American President should not be running around saying he is a "global citizen".  He is NOT elected to care for the world first and America second.  He is elected to take care of America first and the world second.  He is sworn to up hold and defend the U.S. Constitution, not the UN Charter.

So when America elects a President that puts America first, whatever is decided in Geneva would be one favorable to America either now, the future, or both.  Or it would be something Geneva adopt that we would not be a part of.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #152 on: January 26, 2016, 05:17:04 am »
So I'm not an American, so please don't shoot me.

If I was to throw a bit of dynamite into this thread it would be the name "Bernie Sanders".
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #153 on: January 26, 2016, 05:39:06 am »
"The future of education is clearly tiers"

Absolutely, as it is today. Communities should have the right to determine what education they want for their kids.

All very well and good if they can afford it. But what about the big chunks of our country - concerning which, its seems already to have been decided, in "politically sensitive" discussions in Geneva, already decided, it seems, will be the losers in the globalization game? 
...

Hey, CDEV, why do you keep on bringing up these "discussion in Geneva..."  I don't expect future presidents to be like the nutcase we got now.

American President should not be running around saying he is a "global citizen".  He is NOT elected to care for the world first and America second.  He is elected to take care of America first and the world second.  He is sworn to up hold and defend the U.S. Constitution, not the UN Charter.

So when America elects a President that puts America first, whatever is decided in Geneva would be one favorable to America either now, the future, or both.  Or it would be something Geneva adopt that we would not be a part of.

Well, you and I agree on this, but unfortunately, nobdy is consulting us, they don't care what we think or vote. Thats the whole idea. The things that effect the economic interests of corporations are being taken off the table. I dont mean that figuratively, either, I mean literally removed from the things we, meaning people we elect, can change. Things like healthcare are seen to be a sort of property of multinational corporations. If we cannot afford top quality healthcare, then we must buy something less expensive which might involve a policy that ships us overseas for care or treats us hre with doctors whose licenses come from africa or asia, and are recognized here because of a treaty. they may be paid minimum wage in the higher of the two countries or what they pay may be between them and their foreign employer.

See this paper ( http://www.cuts-geneva.org/pacteac/images/Documents/EAC%20Forum/Forum17/EAC%20Geneva%20Forum-%20WTO%20Note%2017.pdf ) which gives a good overview of the chronology of the Geneva talks which started in 2006, (see http://www.maine.gov/legis/opla/ctpchlthcaresub.pdf ) they are descended from a previous treaty which was signed in 1995. GATS. Mode Four was never able to get the traction the proponents of it wanted it to have because the LDCs didnt want to sacrifice their public healthcare and education for the magic beans of progressive liberalisation,  without getting lots of jobs in exchange. With India having come back empty handed on Mode Four concessions from the Nairobi talks last month, there is a lot of discussion about Doha Development Agenda and whether the LDCs were fed a line to get them to play along for so long - with first the Uruguay Round, then the Doha business.

For a good overview of the services trade generally, I recommend "Serving Whose interests by Jane Kelsey, the New Zealand globalization expert, its findable on the web. Read the chapter "Reading the GATS as ideology". You may find you agree with me- stranger things have happened. 

The reason I brought both up is that these low cost workers may end up becoming very popular here in the US, because (as one employer said ) "I can get four of him for what I pay for one of you"

Here are the four modes of trade in services.:

http://www.slideshare.net/GitanjaliMaria/four-modes-of-wto

http://www.cuts-geneva.org/pacteac/images/Documents/EAC%20Forum/Forum22/EAC%20Geneva%20Forum-%20WTO%20Note%2022.pdf


In the final analysis, I think we're going to end up agreeing on this, if only because there is no other way for health care to work. They are making sure of that by eliminating the other ways, they are 30 years ahead of all of the rest of us, they saw this coming decades ago, and tried to future proof the big bucks but they didnt do anything half way, they want too much and its unsustainable.


They want the world's money, and they want wages to fall because jobs are going to become so hard to get, that means they must be paid less and less, approaching zero? who knows. Supply and demand-

The rationale for it is untested economic theories.. its claimed to be more efficient to let corporations move emloyees around at will, intracorporate travel, its not immigration and the work is temprary, no more than five years, it will be irreversible so the next president or congress wont have any control once its signed, corporations need stability now, the laws of physics are claimed to have changed because of the mobility of global capitalponzischeme.. (shhh)

Some of these links may be relevant..

http://www.wti.org/fileadmin/user_upload/nccr-trade.ch/wp4/publications/Working_Paper_20143.pdf

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/workshop/join/2013/433722/EXPO-INTA_AT(2013)433722_EN.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw7P0RGZQxQ&feature=youtu.be

They want more and more money. But you cant do all of these things they are doing at the same time and not have society break.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 06:02:03 am by cdev »
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #154 on: January 26, 2016, 08:58:34 am »
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I've thought it through very carefully.

And the result of that careful thought process of yours is that it is absolutely wrong for others to force you to pay for their education but it is absolutely OK for you to force others to pay for your healthcare?

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What should be publicly funded and what should not be is very open to debate.

But a publicly funded education is a definite "no", but a publicly funded healthcare is a definite "yes", only because you don't need the former but you need the later?

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Some of the things you've listed is much more important than education and should arguably be provided for free.

then, you should support a delayed implementation of publicly funded healthcare until everyone gets his/her free lunch, free drinks, free shoes, free mattresses, free diapers and free .... from our government?

A discussion of publicly funded healthcare can only happen between folks wearing publicly funded diapers. No free diapers, no free healthcare, :)
All right, I'll come clean: I was playing devil's advocate.

Of course I agree that the state should provide education and healthcare. To those in properly developed countries with a public health insurance system, the idea of abolishing it would probably invoke a similar reaction to the state school system being scrapped in the US.

Spending money on education and health is not simply providing to freeloaders. It's an investment. Spend money on education and people will get better jobs and give back to the economy. Spend money on health and those who can't work due to illness will be able to return to work and have less time off sick.

Society should also provide some kind of safety net and provide food, shelter etc. to those who fall on hard times. How much of this should come from the state and what should be provided by charities is a matter open for debate. Of course it's inevitable there will be some freeloaders but as long as it pays to work this can be minimised.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #155 on: January 26, 2016, 11:17:54 am »
...Of course I agree that the state should provide education and healthcare. To those in properly developed countries with a public health insurance system, the idea of abolishing it would probably invoke a similar reaction to the state school system being scrapped in the US.

Spending money on education and health is not simply providing to freeloaders. It's an investment. Spend money on education and people will get better jobs and give back to the economy. Spend money on health and those who can't work due to illness will be able to return to work and have less time off sick...

You can want that, but you can't do it without arbitrary limits. It's all in the details, and those details often require the use of "forbidden words"

-Who wants to pay for the correction surgery a women needs, after she chose 3 cheap nose jobs and her 10th breast implant?
-Who wants to pay for my Formule-1 / Nascar driver "education" ?

2 strange examples, of course, but there's a whole range between useful educations and useless, a range between obvious healthcare and waste.
And it's a politician that's gonna decide, backed by the ignorant masses. "Earth is flat and mariuhana heals cancer."

The one that promises everything to everyone, will take all your money and give you nothing.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #156 on: January 26, 2016, 12:07:40 pm »
"All right, I'll come clean: I was playing devil's advocate."

Nice try.

"Spend money on health and those who can't work due to illness will be able to return to work and have less time off sick."

So, your rationale for a tax payer funded healthcare is so the sick to get back to work soon and contribute to the states taz revenue.

Does that mean that you think it is OK to not provide healthcare to people who have no hope of ever going back to work, like the elderly or the terminally ill? Do you think it is OK to ration healthcare based ones value contribution to the society? So a lowly paid maid would get less healthcare than the presisent.

Your motivation to provide the healthcare sounds identical to that of a plantation owner providing healthcare to his slaves: so they can get back to work.

Amazing how frightening your slip-up can be. Almost like the Gruber moment, :)

"Society should also provide some kind of safety net and provide food, shelter etc. to those who fall on hard times. "

But why unconditioned free healthcare but limited food and shelter? A flu not treated typically doesnt kill you but no food and no water will definitely kill you, so why do you put free healthcare above and beyond free lifes essentials?

"If course it's inevitable there will be some freeloaders but as long as it pays to work this can be minimised."

I guess tough luck to the elderly and terminally ill in your utopia.

At least you had the courage to spill the guts up front.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #157 on: January 26, 2016, 12:21:42 pm »
-Who wants to pay for the correction surgery a women needs, after she chose 3 cheap nose jobs and her 10th breast implant?

Private providers of medical and cosmetic services should purchase insurance  that will pay for correction in the case of medical negligence.  Insurance will be backed by the state should the provider be unable to cover the patients (in the same way that the US government covers space flight accidents beyond $100 million as it is impractical for an insurer to pay out such a large amount for one incident.)  In the case of non-negligence the patient should pay for any corrections. Cosmetic surgery is not covered on the NHS, except if the surgery would significantly improve the quality of life (for example facial reconstruction, burns treatment) or is medically necessary.

-Who wants to pay for my Formule-1 / Nascar driver "education" ?

You can pay for that. Just like I pay for university. (Although, I do think university education should be more widely accessible for STEM students, there is no shortage at this time.)
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #158 on: January 26, 2016, 12:35:07 pm »
"All right, I'll come clean: I was playing devil's advocate."

Nice try.

"Spend money on health and those who can't work due to illness will be able to return to work and have less time off sick."

So, your rationale for a tax payer funded healthcare is so the sick to get back to work soon and contribute to the states taz revenue.

Does that mean that you think it is OK to not provide healthcare to people who have no hope of ever going back to work, like the elderly or the terminally ill? Do you think it is OK to ration healthcare based ones value contribution to the society? So a lowly paid maid would get less healthcare than the presisent.

Your motivation to provide the healthcare sounds identical to that of a plantation owner providing healthcare to his slaves: so they can get back to work.

Amazing how frightening your slip-up can be. Almost like the Gruber moment, :)

"Society should also provide some kind of safety net and provide food, shelter etc. to those who fall on hard times. "

But why unconditioned free healthcare but limited food and shelter? A flu not treated typically doesnt kill you but no food and no water will definitely kill you, so why do you put free healthcare above and beyond free lifes essentials?

"If course it's inevitable there will be some freeloaders but as long as it pays to work this can be minimised."

I guess tough luck to the elderly and terminally ill in your utopia.

At least you had the courage to spill the guts up front.

Of course society has a moral obligation to support those who can't fend for themselves, especially the elderly who have paid into national insurance for many years and need medical treatment.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #159 on: January 26, 2016, 12:44:23 pm »
Your rationale for free healthcareoves faster than Obama's line in the Syrian sand, :)

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Offline dannyf

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #160 on: January 26, 2016, 12:47:23 pm »
As time goes by, I have more and more appreciation of our founding fathers wanting this country to be a representative republic, not a democracy where quantity not quality rules.

Too bad that over the years we have drifted so far from it that there doesn't seem to exist a peaceful fix.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #161 on: January 26, 2016, 05:33:56 pm »
Dannyf,

Experts seem to agree that in not very long a time (25 years - give or take  decade or so) the kinds of jobs that were the norm in the 20th century will be very rare and most people's incomes will come from inherited wealth or investments, or similar.

Leaving an awful lot of people with virtually no way of supporting themselves with consistency. The only way we can prevent that is by taking a much broader, less elitist approach to education, and especially stop trying to beat the spirit out of poor people, something increasingly clueless American politicians seem to do by habit, but the fact is, its not necessary to do that because we wont need them to work. Beating people's creativity out of them is counterproductive.

.
Easy fix,

If you think there are a majority of like minded people, why don't you run for office and change things?

The problem is, we're signing trade deals that will take away the politicians ability to change the reasons for it by giving them in the form of new property interests, to various corporations. the only way to change things will be to start your own country outside of the jurisdiction of these trade pacts. Elections will be symbolic, and leaders will be more ceremonial than not, thats already happening in the US.

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Or form your own alternative to health insurance companies, others are doing it, not to much success yet but hey at least they are trying instead of complaining about it.


The problem is, the government isnt allowed to do almost everything which we think of as the ways to save money. Remember the beginning of the Obama Administration when he spent all that time with whatever hiis name is from Louisiana who was the head of the association of drug manufacturing companies, and then they emerged with a cover up that claimed all those things had been taken off the table as part of some deal? the fact is, they were all already trade positions, but true to form they created a cover story so they would not be discussed.

. About the only thing that they are allowed to do anything beside abandon sick people (because everything else would in some way be either "trade distorting" or require breaking some ideologically rigid policy)  is increase global trade in services, so that would mean either shipping sick people elsewhere for treatment, or - and this is the most likely short term, in fact its part of the Geneva treaty, the US and other signatory nations, when a corporation wanted to move their employee from country to country, in an intra corporate transfer, member nations would have to recognize their licenses - from other countries. That is part of the disciplines on domestic regulation. The model for this were the GATS disciplines on the accountancy profession, which can be read, they are public, basically recognize licenses and issue visas in all services for the employees of sining (low bidding) services firms (contracts will be procured using a global -e-bidding system)  That would aply to a great many professions, and only then would they be deemed "no more restrictive than necessary to ensure the quality of the service". Wages will fall, there may be no limits on that, or their may. Certainly, paying a foreign PhD or MS a minimum wage is a good deal for the customers of multinational companies.




Quote
As for the whole trade stuff, well we will see an increase of 0.5% income in the US for very little investment (relatively)

Global economics are a very complicated thing, just trying to tame that beast to stop the rapid fluctuations of the global economy that we have been experiencing lately is not an effort in vain. But if you have a better solution, just spill it out instead of just complaining.


We should understand that the gains may be concentrated in one area and all other trades may see big losses. For example, it seems that studies about one big trade deal are largely negative as to jobs, and my impression is that it will see almost all its gains in the automotive industry and losses elsewhere for smaller companies and market sectors that cannot adapt to the new normals.  ( http://ttip2016.eu/blog-detail/blog/ttip%20jobs.html  - note that there are lots of links at this URL to other studies, they are worth reading)

I think that gains for the US may be concentrated in areas like pharmaceuticals and agribusiness, and of course, the lure of an almost unlimited possibilities of replacing expensive, often union labor with cheap globalized staffing in expensive services is a huge draw.  They may be able to do away with the "economic means tests" and wage parity requirements too. ( Foreign services firms are already gearing up to service this anticipated market. See tradeinservices dot net, for example. ) And the protests from displaced "professional protectionists" will have a hard time arguing with the provision of jobs to firms from Afica and South Asia - certified Least Developed Countries (LDCs) will be allowed to maintain "state oenwed enterprises" like public monopolies in educational brands and health care monopolies (concessions), and discriminate in certain areas as far as their regulations, while rich countries like those in the EU and especially US will have to end them. they will be out of ceremonial politicians and the ceremonial Presidents hands.  Subsidies in wages (minimum wage laws) and other forms of protectionism that disproportionately exclude firms from trading partners are framed as "more burdensome than necessary to ensure the quality of the service" in successful wealthy countries like the US.

So, my final impression is that we're going to be overwhelmed with a whole set of changes which almost nobody will understand the rationales for (and if they do understand them they are likely to disagree with them)

When you change so many things at the same time, the risk of a huge disaster I think are astronomical. I think its sheer insanity to try to make so many changes, with unexpected impossible to guess outcomes, at once.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #162 on: January 26, 2016, 05:52:48 pm »
Since several people mentioned Jonathan Gruber, I think this should be mentioned - I think that he was one of the two people who first wrote about the so called "crowd out" of "private insurance" by public insurance- - framing it as an effect, a framing that is wrong, if public education and insurance are allowed to cexist, that cannot be done, as it basically criminalizes them, its an attack on them, its saying things cant remain the same - a change that with GATS is designed to tear them apart, a death by a thousand cuts, read GATS Article I:3 (b) and (c)

-such as with existing public education or health care.. Crowd out also is an attack on the working poor, as it directly contradicted decades of research from the SCHIP program that showed that a great great many American families with children were so cashed strapped that even small co-pays out of pocket would prevent children from getting even desperately needed care. because they just didnt have it, you cant get money from a stone. many parents - many families were working multiple low paying jobs. They did not have this extra money they were said to have,  they ignored all of that in setting up Obamacare. At the demands of health insurance companies..

a direct result of GATS's thinking and its competition policy" which is the line of thinking that says that any public anything (healthcare or education) has to be made horrible enough so that anybody who can afford better will avoid it because it is truly bad, it cannot be too attractive, it must gradually become crap in order to comply with trade deals and ideology.

(Combined with a possibly work-sparse  future, "progressive liberalisation" -privatization of every public service that can be framed as possibly competing with a for profit provider in any way,  it is a huge mistake, a thoughtless recipe to lock in a global disaster)

The insertion of these concepts into promoted trade deals and ideology, in a non-obvious way, right there was a huge huge mistake that was done at the demands of big US corporations. So anybody who says Gruber was the "architect of Obamacare" (which is totally wrong, BTW) should keep that crapification in mind, and recognize it. In fact, Mitt Romney was mre the architect of the Massachusetts predecessor of Obamacare (which increased not decreased medical debt in the state- also, the Massachusetts plan was more generous than Obamacare!)

Who "wrote the aca" ? Insurance industry heavyweights, thats who, and they wrote it to benefit themselves more than anybody else, of course, the person who wrote the ACA is Liz Fowler, a former Baucus staffer who at the time was working for Wellpoint, a health insurance company)

How do i know this? I watched every single one of the ACA finance committee hearings. What an ordeal. But I learned a lot about how these things are structured and its not pretty.

Competition policy as its incorporated into these things is all wrong.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 11:01:06 pm by cdev »
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #163 on: January 27, 2016, 12:41:09 pm »
Your rationale for free healthcareoves faster than Obama's line in the Syrian sand, :)
Nope, my rationale and opinion on the matter haven't change a great deal since the start of the topic. I'm just able to see it from both sides and argue accordingly.

As time goes by, I have more and more appreciation of our founding fathers wanting this country to be a representative republic, not a democracy where quantity not quality rules.

Too bad that over the years we have drifted so far from it that there doesn't seem to exist a peaceful fix.

As in any country, the problem is large cooperate bodies have most of the power. When something is changed, there will be winners and losers. The health insurance companies wouldn't like a proper public health insurance programme because it would most likely them out of business. They have a lot of money and power so to lobby the government and put out advertisements to scare people into voting against it. Therefore it will never happen. Politicians such as Obama will just produce half arsed policies in attempt to appear they're doing some good and make the system suck less than it does.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Top 10 (salary) and bottom 10 College degrees
« Reply #164 on: January 27, 2016, 07:30:49 pm »
Quote
Experts seem to agree that...

Yeah, there is definitely a consensus amongst experts that agree to the consensus that .....

If you had listened to "experts", we would have either frozen to death ("global cooling"), or boiled to death ("global warming"), we would be traveling from galaxies to galaxies, or we would have been living in the caves after a nuclear annihilation, .....

The point is, experts are more like fraudsters: the less you trust them, the wiser you are.
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