Author Topic: Distributors are so thick nowadays  (Read 1885 times)

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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2020, 01:29:09 am »
I am asked to complete BOMs with specific part numbers, rather than a generic classification.
I see that as well, but in our case is to simply consolidate purchases across different business units. I still feel the need feom time to time to re-check my designs for redundancies and off parts.

Afaik, rigol 1054z suffered from using wrong components in PLL, and that caused jitter (apart from layout mistakes). Or that was another oscilloscope...
You are thinking about project Yaigol on the DS2000 series.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2020, 06:28:38 am »
This is one of the things that confuses me about my current employer.

I am asked to complete BOMs with specific part numbers, rather than a generic classification.  This has led me to get calls from the purchasing department along the lines of, "We can't buy 123-456 any more, it's a disaster and we need 25,000 by tomorrow."  That turns out to be a 0805 100nF capacitor of which there are hundreds of possible substitutions, with large orders like that being available next day but then I find out we've been paying 300 euros for a reel of parts because they've been marked obsolete and we can only get them from greymarket source X.  Sometimes the components are really not critical.

No doubt this has cost us plenty of money too, given these components fluctuate in price and the cheapest supplier will vary as time goes by.  I don't know if there's a "generic" catalogue of components, where you can say, use "Generic_0805_100nF_X5R" as a part number and any reasonable part is selected, but I'd love to find out.

seems like you need a supply chain team ...


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Offline tom66

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2020, 07:43:46 am »
I often see that high-frequency part specify a list of "approved" capacitors with required ESR and ESL. Using a different part may cause problems. May that's why they want to have specific components?
That can also be the case with precision circuits.

If it was an RF part sure, but most of these parts aren't RF components, they're general purpose decoupling or filter parts.  We're talking about 50MHz microcontrollers here, the components are generally not too critical.

I think the funniest call I had from the purchasing department was that a "cost optimisation analysis" had been performed on one of our products.  They suggested that we omit the most expensive part on this product, which was the STM32 microcontroller, to save money on making every board.   Sure, you can try and build the board without that but good luck.
 

Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2020, 09:51:28 am »
In my youth, I worked in a small hardware store, in the days where nothing was prepacked etc.

We could spend 30+ mins on a customer wanting to look at  15 different sized screws, then they eventually buy 10 individual screws for about 7 pence.

My boss would later have a polite go at me saying I shouldn’t waste so much time on customers that are only going to be spending a few pence, other customers are waiting to be served, customers with money to spend....

My initial argument was,  the guy who got great service when he spent 7 pence, would likely chose us first when he wanted something more expensive.  But with very few exceptions, my boss was totally right, the customers that spent 30 mins of my time spending a few pence because they hadn’t a clue what size screw they needed, came back week after week expecting me to open every box for them so they could again spend just a few pence.

Ok no internet, but books galore showed the various screw sizes, they could easily have worked out what size they needed in advance (or at least narrowed it down to two or three choices)
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2020, 11:12:05 am »
In my youth, I worked in a small hardware store, in the days where nothing was prepacked etc.

We could spend 30+ mins on a customer wanting to look at  15 different sized screws, then they eventually buy 10 individual screws for about 7 pence.

My boss would later have a polite go at me saying I shouldn’t waste so much time on customers that are only going to be spending a few pence, other customers are waiting to be served, customers with money to spend....

My initial argument was,  the guy who got great service when he spent 7 pence, would likely chose us first when he wanted something more expensive.  But with very few exceptions, my boss was totally right, the customers that spent 30 mins of my time spending a few pence because they hadn’t a clue what size screw they needed, came back week after week expecting me to open every box for them so they could again spend just a few pence.

Ok no internet, but books galore showed the various screw sizes, they could easily have worked out what size they needed in advance (or at least narrowed it down to two or three choices)
I'd like to counter that I often test the waters before making a big purchase with a small purchase, to see how a company handles customers and service. Sometimes it's just a request for information. While I don't doubt that there are plenty of people you'll never make money on, only putting effort in the whales is a mistake. I need to know I can count on a decent treatment after spending a large chunk of cash.
 

Offline peter-h

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2020, 12:45:11 pm »
If I am placing an order for say 200k resistors, 50k (10 reels) each of 4 values, the disti should be able to find the P/Ns.

Normally, nowadays, in fact right now, it is Yageo, but in a few months' time it might be another name. If you get the wrong P/N, or last year's favourite P/N, you could pay 10x more.

These distis will not help you even if you wanted to buy 1 million resistors.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2020, 03:26:58 pm »
If I am placing an order for say 200k resistors, 50k (10 reels) each of 4 values, the disti should be able to find the P/Ns.

Normally, nowadays, in fact right now, it is Yageo, but in a few months' time it might be another name. If you get the wrong P/N, or last year's favourite P/N, you could pay 10x more.

These distis will not help you even if you wanted to buy 1 million resistors.
It was not uncommon for customers to have the AVL or "Approved Vendor List" of second and third source parts that was given to the assembly house and carefully crafted with the help of a distributor. However, to get a real customer service, the volumes were horrendously high and the BOM was closed with a single distributor. The high volume off quotes could be followed by a call from the FAE to inquire about the design you were running that requires such high part count - the customers that didn't want to share this information got a corresponding service and pricing; the ones that opened the door got much better service.

BTW, I don't disagree with your assertive that the distributor should be able to find the P/Ns but, with the shrinking market on the distribution business, their personnel are probably stretched thin. 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 03:31:47 pm by rsjsouza »
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2020, 04:39:36 pm »
If I am placing an order for say 200k resistors, 50k (10 reels) each of 4 values, the disti should be able to find the P/Ns.
That's not relevant without another parameter - $
In your case, less than <$1K in total for whole order.
 
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Online blueskull

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2020, 05:00:26 pm »
In your case, less than <$1K in total for whole order.

More likely less than $100.

Out of curiosity I searched LCSC for 10k 0402 1%, and I found the cheapest is from Walsin (the group also owns Winbond, among other major electronic parts manufacturers in Taiwan), priced at $20/50kpcs. Four orders of this kind would be $80.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2020, 05:00:32 pm »
10 reels each of 4 values is 40 reels , at 5 to 6% areel .. that's 240$ .. and you wonder why they don;t respond. picking up the phone and listening to you just ate their profit margin .
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2020, 02:29:50 am »
But people who give no part numbers to the distributors... nobody wants to stick out their neck filling in a part number, only to later hear screams of "that part won't work! Your fault!".
You are all missing the point that this is an RFQ not an order. The liability element comes when you get the quotation back and check what parts have been offered against your specification; if you accept the RFQ as the basis for an order you are signing off that part XYZ-RQ-12-89-X is an acceptable supply for "10k resistor 0805 1%" then you, as customer, accept liability for that choice. [...]

Not quite. On a few occasions I have sent a preliminary BOM to Supplychain/Procurement/Purchasing for RFQ to get pricing on the build.
Because parts can have long lead-times, I find out later that the Manufacturing manager ordered all the parts on the BOM :palm: even though the product has not finished approvals and is months away from production. I'd signed-off on nothing.
He's trying to cover his (procurement) ass and be ready to manufacture ASAP. Engineering does not control Purchasing.

Another company I worked for, when the product was ready for production, Supplychain had ordered nothing  :=\ and there were parts with many months lead-times on the BOM and they were caught with their pants down. Even worse, some parts such as RF modem modules, manufacturers demand your draw-down quantities and dates well in advance, along with a signed commitment to order that.

I wish it was straightforward to get an RFQ but I find the politics around it are incredible because it involves a few departments and none of them are very competent.
 
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2020, 07:55:41 pm »
But people who give no part numbers to the distributors... nobody wants to stick out their neck filling in a part number, only to later hear screams of "that part won't work! Your fault!".
You are all missing the point that this is an RFQ not an order. The liability element comes when you get the quotation back and check what parts have been offered against your specification; if you accept the RFQ as the basis for an order you are signing off that part XYZ-RQ-12-89-X is an acceptable supply for "10k resistor 0805 1%" then you, as customer, accept liability for that choice. [...]

Not quite. On a few occasions I have sent a preliminary BOM to Supplychain/Procurement/Purchasing for RFQ to get pricing on the build.
Because parts can have long lead-times, I find out later that the Manufacturing manager ordered all the parts on the BOM :palm: even though the product has not finished approvals and is months away from production. I'd signed-off on nothing.
He's trying to cover his (procurement) ass and be ready to manufacture ASAP. Engineering does not control Purchasing.

Another company I worked for, when the product was ready for production, Supplychain had ordered nothing  :=\ and there were parts with many months lead-times on the BOM and they were caught with their pants down. Even worse, some parts such as RF modem modules, manufacturers demand your draw-down quantities and dates well in advance, along with a signed commitment to order that.

I wish it was straightforward to get an RFQ but I find the politics around it are incredible because it involves a few departments and none of them are very competent.
go to octopart.com and plug in 1k 0805 1% and see what you get.
you can plug entire BOM's in octopart and it will show you availability , princing and whatnot.
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Offline splin

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2020, 04:55:59 am »
go to octopart.com and plug in 1k 0805 1% and see what you get.
you can plug entire BOM's in octopart and it will show you availability , princing and whatnot.

Go to Octopart and plug in '0805 (pullup) - 10k <= resistance <=1M, thin or thick film, V >= 3.5V, pd >= 1mW, tolerance < 75%' and see what you get.
 

Offline peter-h

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2020, 02:18:19 pm »
What surprised me yesterday is that they (Future in this case) don't even have a description on their system. Just the cryptic P/N. So no way to double check anything. One ends up googling for the description...
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2020, 08:43:27 pm »
go to octopart.com and plug in 1k 0805 1% and see what you get.
you can plug entire BOM's in octopart and it will show you availability , princing and whatnot.

Go to Octopart and plug in '0805 (pullup) - 10k <= resistance <=1M, thin or thick film, V >= 3.5V, pd >= 1mW, tolerance < 75%' and see what you get.
why do you put terms like pullup in there ? the resistor doesnt care what it is used for.
if you don;t care about thin or thick film : why mention it ?
what is this voltage nonsense ? it's a resistor ( unless you are going for high voltage apps , but since it is 0805 that is also nonsense )
and up to 75% tolerance .. what is that ?

you are not searching or a part. you are machine gunning for a table. tha t is not a bill og material. you are feedin it garbage. of course you get garbage ...
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Distributors are so thick nowadays
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2020, 09:26:08 pm »
Yep, I get a fine parametric table with excellent filtering and sorting capabilities...  :-//
999788-0
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 


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