General > General Technical Chat
Diversity, Equity and Inclusion
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Circlotron:
End of story.
nctnico:

--- Quote from: John B on August 19, 2022, 02:54:44 am ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2022, 02:02:25 am ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 18, 2022, 11:58:43 pm ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 11:32:08 pm ---engineering terminology we supposedly are and aren't allowed to use
--- End quote ---
For me, retiring the usage of “master and slave” falls into the category of “yeah, that’s probably a good thing to do [to avoid dredging up discomforts from over 150 years ago].”
--- End quote ---

It's bullshit.

--- End quote ---

It's also painfully, painfully US-centric, as is the entirety of the woke caste system and it's dogma.

--- End quote ---
It is not only US centric. In the Netherlands there is also an active 'we stem from slaves' movement including monuments and all. Even though the victims are dead for over a century already and slavery was never legal in the Netherlands. And oddly enough never a word about people who where slaves more recently. My own grandfather was one for a couple of years in one of hitler's munition factories. Oh, no, the political correct term for him is 'forced labourer'...

Recently I watched a Dutch documentary about the 'woke movement'. It looks like these people are angry just to be angry. Everything is wrong.

Bottom line: I think some people are just looking to point fingers in order to mask their own shortcomings / lack of spirit to make something from their lives. The woke movement is a whole ecosystem around it driven by people that make money from telling people they are being discriminated one way or another.

For sure there is discrimination but if you start of by telling people they will never amount to anything because of their gender, skin color, etc, people will start by discriminating themselves and lose any incentive to go after a good career.

Recently I watched a TV show. At some point this rethorical question came along 'Have you ever seen a black software engineer?'. That made me wonder: have I? The answer is no. I just can't think of a reason why not though. I have been around many companies and also saw quite a few CVs and applicants so that is not the reason.
Zero999:

--- Quote from: Neper on August 19, 2022, 10:55:31 am ---
--- Quote from: emece67 on August 18, 2022, 07:36:56 pm ---I realize now that my opinion about some other people on this thread has changed. In some cases dramatically and to worst.

There is the obvious possibility that the opinion that some other members of the forum have about me to also have changed in the same sense.

This is why I think that it is a big error to allow this kind of threads.
--- End quote ---

If anything, they're divisive and they poison the atmosphere.

Why can't the people starting those discussions take them to the usual political ratholes instead of spoiling the fun on here?

--- End quote ---
What political ratholes? You mean Twitter? The problem is it's subject to heavy censorship which only works in one direction. I believe the reason why Dave has allowed this thread to remain open is because this place isn't censored and people are free to vent.

I find it odd how no one here has presented a decent argument in favour of diversity equity and inclusion training. Those who appear to support it have just said they want the thread closed.

I'm actually in favour of DEI training, but not in the way pushed. It should just be about making staff aware of the law, common courtesy and to try to keep politics and religion out of the workplace, whether it be pride flags or right wing memes.

I'll attempt to put forward the rational for interactionist training at work. The idea behind intersectionality is society is society is skewed to favour one group, over others who are oppressed. Every person has characteristics which form part of their identity and will determine where they lie on the intersectionality diagram. A deaf, black trans woman will be oppressed not only because because she's black, but a trans woman with a diability. A gay white man will also be oppressed for being gay, but not so much as he's white. Transwomen are more oppressed than ciswomen*.

Straight, white men are at the top of society, because they hold most positions of power. They have a lot invested to maintain the status quo, which is why many people here who fall into this category will be told the should remain silent, as by questioning the interesctionist ideology they're trying to maintain their position of power, privilege and dominance in society.

TERFs (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists) need to step aside and support trans rights. Trans people have a disproportionately high suicide rate so it's only right they should be allowed to be treated as the gender they identify with, to be their true selves. This means they need to be allowed to enter spaces and compete in sports which match their identity.

We all need to be aware of our unconscious biases which discriminate against he most marginalised and the more oppressed someone is, the more we need to cut them some slack and help them along in society. We must engineer society to address the under-representation of people who are oppressed in power.

*I hate the term cis which was coined by a peadophile. I find it offensive and I only used it here because I'm playing devil's advocate.


EDIT:
Just to be clear. I was playing devil's advocate. I've noticed no one had put forward an argument for DEI training, so thought I'd put one forward.
Zero999:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 19, 2022, 12:20:05 pm ---
--- Quote from: John B on August 19, 2022, 02:54:44 am ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2022, 02:02:25 am ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 18, 2022, 11:58:43 pm ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 11:32:08 pm ---engineering terminology we supposedly are and aren't allowed to use
--- End quote ---
For me, retiring the usage of “master and slave” falls into the category of “yeah, that’s probably a good thing to do [to avoid dredging up discomforts from over 150 years ago].”
--- End quote ---

It's bullshit.

--- End quote ---

It's also painfully, painfully US-centric, as is the entirety of the woke caste system and it's dogma.

--- End quote ---
It is not only US centric. In the Netherlands there is also an active 'we stem from slaves' movement including monuments and all. Even though the victims are dead for over a century already and slavery was never legal in the Netherlands. And oddly enough never a word about people who where slaves more recently. My own grandfather was one for a couple of years in one of hitler's munition factories. Oh, no, the political correct term for him is 'forced labourer'...

Recently I watched a Dutch documentary about the 'woke movement'. It looks like these people are angry just to be angry. Everything is wrong.

Bottom line: I think some people are just looking to point fingers in order to mask their own shortcomings / lack of spirit to make something from their lives. The woke movement is a whole ecosystem around it driven by people that make money from telling people they are being discriminated one way or another.

For sure there is discrimination but if you start of by telling people they will never amount to anything because of their gender, skin color, etc, people will start by discriminating themselves and lose any incentive to go after a good career.

Recently I watched a TV show. At some point this rethorical question came along 'Have you ever seen a black software engineer?'. That made me wonder: have I? The answer is no. I just can't think of a reason why not though. I have been around many companies and also saw quite a few CVs and applicants so that is not the reason.

--- End quote ---
Most European countries have practiced slavery. Most recently it was the Soviet regime, before that the Nazis and before that the much or the rest of Western Europe in their empires in Africa and the Americas.

It's true lots of the woke stuff is US-centric. The UK is painted in a similar manner as the US, even though we never had Jim Crow laws and many black people came here to escape oppression in the US. Britain also did a lot to try to end slavery in the empire. One of the problems was the natives wanted to keep slavery going because it was profitable for them and they resented outside interference of their customs.
daqq:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 19, 2022, 12:56:54 pm ---Most European countries/regions/peoples have at some point practiced slavery.
--- End quote ---
Fixed it for you. The discussion is really mostly West-centric, concentrating on a few select countries, while glossing over the world wide slavery and its long history and tradition, which is alive and well to this day in various forms. Basically, if you look at human history, it can be summed up as people doing shitty things to other people for shitty reasons with the occasional bright exception - and this can be applied onto damn nearly any region and race. But yeah, let's go with the narrative which is "white people bad".
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