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Diversity, Equity and Inclusion

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Zero999:

--- Quote from: ebastler on August 19, 2022, 06:03:54 pm ---"We are all of the same opinion here: The call for diversity is a complete fad."

Am I the only one to see the irony there? Not only is this a poor example of a "discussion", but it is also a beautifully self-referential paradox. You nicely illustrate how a homogeneous group can be quite exclusive, even hostile -- possibly without even realizing it.

Please note that this is the first time I have hinted in any way at my own position on "diversity" in this thread. Which is not that different from that of most other participants, in fact: I certainly find that the "woke" movement has gone off the rails and is putting a strain on society as a whole, including some professional environments.

But I also think that all of us, myself certainly included, have biases which we should be self-aware of and which we should challenge ourselves about. The claims made by Dave and others in this thread -- that engineering is all about strictly objective assessments based only on merit -- don't show that self-awareness.

In an earlier post I have voiced (once) my personal opinion that this forum is not a suitable place for this discussion. In response it has been implied by several members that I am a woke whatsoever, anti-democratic, and unable to tolerate differing opinions. I have also been personally attacked several times by Nominal Animal, in response to posts which never personally attacked him.

But sure, you guys are doing great:


--- Quote from: tpowell1830 on August 19, 2022, 04:36:49 pm ---this thread, shows what open discussion looks like in a democratic society. I, for one, am very pleased to see open discussion with minimal emotional outbursts of name calling (except for a few).

--- End quote ---

 :clap:

--- End quote ---
The problem is many of the woke crowd want to shutdown discussion, so it shouldn't be surprising you've been labelled as such for not wanting to have this debate.

I think most people are aware that everyone has biases. The problem is there's no evidence to suggest they can be eliminated by unconscious bias training.

Stereotypes exist because they're more often than not true. The idea that a certain group of people are more likely to hold a certain bias isn't always true. For example women hold similar biases towards women, as men do. I've recently been promoted, yet my mum made the assumption my new boss was male, yet it's a woman. I wouldn't be surprised if a black security guard is more likely to suspect a black man of shoplifting, than a white person, the same as a white security guard.

paulca:
Really, I haven't the faintest clue what colour, shape, size, variety, sexual orientation or other discriminating factors about ANY of you.  Except Maybe Dave as I've seen him obviously.  I at least know he's a white ausy bloke.

That's the beauty of this.

I remember chatting with people online, night after night after night, for years, on VATSim (Flight sim enthusiast gaming community).   One night someone posted someone else's picture and most people in the room went, "OH... err.. wow!", "nobody knew he was black".  There was even an instance of "Wait, you're a 20 something girl?  I thought you were like 14 with a camp voice!?".  The mental pictures that people had built up of each other began to disintegrate and fresh minds suddenly open with a clean slate.

The conversations and the coming together-ness I felt that night in that chat room was epic.  The realisation that all these faceless people you had built such friendships with are all real diverse people.  Black, white, asian, young, old, but if the topic is focused it just doesn't matter. 

IanB:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 19, 2022, 06:51:38 pm ---Stereotypes exist because they're more often than not true. The idea that a certain group of people are more likely to hold a certain bias isn't always true. For example women hold similar biases towards women, as men do. I've recently been promoted, yet my mum made the assumption my new boss was male, yet it's a woman. I wouldn't be surprised if a black security guard is more likely to suspect a black man of shoplifting, than a white person, the same as a white security guard.

--- End quote ---

While biases may exist, there are also the practical realities of the workplace. For instance, when hiring, it can often be hard to find a single candidate that fits the bill, maybe two or three if we are lucky. At the end of the day, if the only suitable candidate we can find is a green alien from Mars, then we are going to hire a green alien from Mars. The idea that certain groups are under-represented in the workplace because they are actively ignored, rejected, or passed over, is not really consistent with running a successful business.

james_s:

--- Quote from: MarginallyStable on August 19, 2022, 06:30:50 pm ---
--- Quote ---For me, retiring the usage of “master and slave” falls into the category of “yeah, that’s probably a good thing to do [to avoid dredging up discomforts from over 150 years ago].”
--- End quote ---

One of may projects was pushed to use "mother/baby" for this use case.... Now even that is being challenged as offensive.

--- End quote ---

Welcome to the euphemism treadmill.

The fundamental problem here is that master/slave accurately describes the way these components work together, so *any* words that accurately describe this will be synonyms of master and slave.

One of the things that drives me absolutely nuts is when people completely fail to understand the concept of context. A word on its own is meaningless, it's just a collection of sounds, which conveys a message because we attach meaning to those sounds. That meaning depends greatly on context. In many cases when a person finds a word offensive it is because *they* are attaching meaning to that word that was not put there by the person using it. I was in one of those DEI meetings a few months ago where the presenter said something along the lines of "when you say x what you mean is y" I think the phrase was "when you ask somebody 'where are you from' you're saying 'you are different and don't belong here'" I had to bite my tongue to not respond with "don't you dare try to tell me what I actually mean!" Indeed if I ask 'where are you from' it means something like 'I can tell by your accent, etc that you came from a different locale/culture and I'm curious to know more about you and your culture'. It is not remotely saying "you don't belong here", not even close, and I really resent some random person acting like they know what's actually inside my head, personally I think they are just projecting their own biases on me.  |O

james_s:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 19, 2022, 06:51:38 pm ---I think most people are aware that everyone has biases. The problem is there's no evidence to suggest they can be eliminated by unconscious bias training.

Stereotypes exist because they're more often than not true. The idea that a certain group of people are more likely to hold a certain bias isn't always true. For example women hold similar biases towards women, as men do. I've recently been promoted, yet my mum made the assumption my new boss was male, yet it's a woman. I wouldn't be surprised if a black security guard is more likely to suspect a black man of shoplifting, than a white person, the same as a white security guard.

--- End quote ---

Multiple studies have shown that bias training is not only ineffective at reducing bias, it actually exacerbates it.

Stereotypes are almost always based on a kernel of truth. Do they apply to everybody? Of course not, but you and I both know that there is some truth behind the stereotypes of our respective cultures. You'll find a lot more uneducated cowboy hat wearing tobacco chewing gun carrying rednecks in the USA than you will in say the UK or India. We don't all fit that stereotype obviously but that doesn't mean it isn't true, and I don't take myself so seriously that I can't laugh at parts of my own culture.

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