General > General Technical Chat
Diversity, Equity and Inclusion
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james_s:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 22, 2022, 02:42:08 pm ---Any suggestions on how to successfully avoid being targeted/canceled, say because one chooses not to support current D-E-I efforts because they will not lead to the results and effects their proponents claim?

I have no good suggestions myself.

Dave already mentioned some cancellation attempts; hearing about known working strategies to defend oneself would be encouraging.

--- End quote ---

IMHO the best you can really do is just smile and nod, go through the motions and write it off as just another useless meeting. Treat everyone with respect and try to avoid interacting any more than absolutely necessary with the ones that have a chip on their shoulder. Staying off of social media helps too, especially Twitter, nothing good comes from posting anything on there. If politics comes up at work, try to just not engage in the discussion.
Nominal Animal:

--- Quote from: ebastler on August 22, 2022, 03:37:09 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 22, 2022, 02:42:08 pm ---Any suggestions on how to successfully avoid being targeted/canceled [..]?

--- End quote ---
I would be curious to hear about personal experiences of engineers being "canceled" in the workplace.
--- End quote ---
Me too.  I am a scientist myself, not an engineer, and I quit academia before I could get "canceled".  More because of research funding than any sociopolitical reason; I only needed to be careful of what I said at the cafeteria.  Especially the physics students lounge was quite welcoming towards all kinds of viewpoints (and it was about 50/50 male/female, not a "sausage fest", which surprised me positively).  I volunteered for some Linux help there.

The reason I wrote "targeted/canceled" is that I am not even perfectly sure how to define being "canceled" in the workplace.

Like paulca described, I too have suffered most from being ignored in the workplace, and overlooked by my superiors – even to the point of having coached a cow-orker in some subject matter before a big meeting the next day, only to have the boss introduce that same person to me as "a proper expert you should look up to".  Things like having done some really big projects, with absolutely zero acknowledgement about it afterwards from anyone.

I've also mentioned that in the late 90s, in my early twenties, I maintained a couple of computer labs and the staff workstations in an entire university department (by invite; I did some projects there first, and the IT person there wanted me to take care of things during her maternity leave), with the head of department telling me that because she has an useless son of about my age, no matter what kind of credentials I had or whoever at the uni was ready to vouch for me, she refused to give me a budget and instead insisted I ask her, in writing, for every single replacement mouse and keyboard.
So, I do claim I know perfectly well what sexist and ageist discrimination is, even though I'm ostensibly a white male.  (I'm actually a sort of a pale pink, and really more Nordic than Caucasian, too.  So even my own ethnicity isn't acknowledged, and is just grouped with people I really do not identify with.)

There was a COO at that university who did try to "cancel" me –– stop any department from ever hiring me again, because I accidentally exposed his misuse of uni funds –– but the IT dept. was well aware of what I had achieved there, and how I was always ready to help anybody, so the IT folk just completely ignored that unlawful order.  He did get fired for misuse of resources, though, a couple of years later.  And in typical Finnish fashion, got a PhD chair in consolation at the same uni.  Yeah, no corruption here..

These are things that still affect me, and I'm really envious of those who can just smile and not give a shit.  I'm too conscientious.


--- Quote from: ebastler on August 22, 2022, 03:37:09 pm ---I am working for a US company myself, which is encouraging diversity, non-discrimination, awareness of biases etc., on what I consider a reasonable level.
--- End quote ---
That's good to hear.  (I mean that sincerely, without any undertones.)

There are many companies that have this stuff well in hand.  Like I said, of D-E-I, I only object to equity; I'm definitely for non-discrimination; and I definitely believe diversity is useful and beneficial although I do not believe it more important than skill and knowledge –– that is, I disagree with "extra points", but do accept diversity as a tie breaker; and I definitely disagree performance bonuses and such given to only minority group members, as paulca described.
I, too, have been skipped for reasons I cannot understand ever since high school (9th grade of comprehensive school, at 15 years old).  (When I graduated, I had the highest scores ever, and they made an exception that year, limiting each student to exactly one award per person.)

Even within an university, it can vary enormously between departments, as it depends more on the administration than even individual professors (chairs).
As I mentioned, at U of H, the students at the physics department are quite open-minded, and I mean that in the traditional sense, not excluding any views without giving them some consideration, and it seemed to me that disagreeing on some point was seen as normal and quite acceptable; which I found refreshing.
During my own student days, I did manage to get called a "dirty commie" and a "greedy capitalist" during a single day.

In all, being ignored or my work overlooked, is definitely a sore point for me, and can make me react quite emotionally/explosively.  It's a personal fault I'm working on.  It has also made it clear to me how important fairness in competitive environments is.
tpowell1830:

--- Quote from: james_s on August 22, 2022, 04:03:42 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 22, 2022, 02:42:08 pm ---Any suggestions on how to successfully avoid being targeted/canceled, say because one chooses not to support current D-E-I efforts because they will not lead to the results and effects their proponents claim?

I have no good suggestions myself.

Dave already mentioned some cancellation attempts; hearing about known working strategies to defend oneself would be encouraging.

--- End quote ---


IMHO the best you can really do is just smile and nod, go through the motions and write it off as just another useless meeting. Treat everyone with respect and try to avoid interacting any more than absolutely necessary with the ones that have a chip on their shoulder. Staying off of social media helps too, especially Twitter, nothing good comes from posting anything on there. If politics comes up at work, try to just not engage in the discussion.

--- End quote ---

This is probably good advice, but the push for more and more conformance is probably likely (1984), where you are compelled to say things that you don't believe.

I don't have anything to add to put up a fight against this, but I think that someone smarter than me could offer some insights. As I mentioned before, leaving a job and citing the reasons may eventually bring the focus back to the center. After all, companies can not function without employees, but surely there is a better way to make this happen?
james_s:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 22, 2022, 04:09:42 pm ---There are many companies that have this stuff well in hand.  Like I said, of D-E-I, I only object to equity; I'm definitely for non-discrimination; and I definitely believe diversity is useful and beneficial although I do not believe it more important than skill and knowledge –– that is, I disagree with "extra points", but do accept diversity as a tie breaker; and I definitely disagree performance bonuses and such given to only minority group members, as paulca described.

--- End quote ---

I do agree that diversity is beneficial, but I think diversity of thought, attitude, mindset, whatever you want to call it is more important than other factors and often overlooked. Some well known tech companies talk a lot about diversity and yet they seem to hire the same personality with the same degrees from the same small handful of universities with the diversity being primarily cosmetic traits. I find it interesting that there is a bit of a paradox where a particular group of people touts the inherent advantages of diversity while the same group tends to argue that everything is social constructs and we are all the same. If everyone is the same then there is no inherent benefit to diversity. 
pcprogrammer:
Diversity brings live to the party, but being introvert, for me there is a line where it becomes to much. And then I reserve the right to not interact. You don't have to befriend every one in life. Private or work. You don't have to be mean and discriminate, but not interacting might be seen as such. Not interacting is as much a right as they have to be acknowledged, in my opinion.

I have worked in the alternative music world so I have seen plenty of different people. Some I liked and some not. That is normal to me.
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