General > General Technical Chat

Diversity, Equity and Inclusion

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Zero999:

--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 03:43:18 pm ---
For non-important topics, I try not to take a hardline approach.


* As above in thread, I'm 100% fine with stopping calling things "master" and "slave". I never owned a slave; no one I know was ever a slave, but it doesn't offend my engineering sensibilities to call them "leader" and "follower" or "primary" and "replica" or whatever.
* Likewise, it doesn't bother me to put pronouns on my Zoom name. Yes, it's blindingly obvious to anyone who has seen me or heard me speak.
--- End quote ---
I take your point about choosing your battles wisely, but disagree with you about the above not being important. Those who control language are very powerful and giving into them only makes them stronger.

What does stop calling things "master" and "slave" achieve? How does it help anyone? You do realise those who support this are typically white academics? I could post videos of black people complaining about this sort thing because they think it's patronising. It's also not free: time = money.

How do you feel stating your pronouns helps anyone? I see it as a form of compelled speech. Those who give into it are unwillingly saying they don't have a problem with gender ideology which responsible for killing women's sports and mutilating children. The person who dreamed all of this up, John Money, was a sicko. He did an experiment on Davie Reimer a boy who had been mutilated due to a botched circumcision when he was a baby. Money decided it would be a good idea to perform gender reassignment on him and persuade his parents to raise him as a girl. It went very badly, with Reimer committing suicide when he found out when he was a teenager and his twin brother killed himself soon after.

paulca:

--- Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2022, 05:56:59 pm ---If there is one thing I would suggest when promoting STEM in schools, it is to give the message that STEM is not computers. Just look around you and think of everything you encounter, use, touch or consume, from buildings, furniture, water, transport, infrastructure, fuel, vehicles, paints, plastics, food, anything man-made you can imagine. How did that stuff get designed and made? STEM. All of it, STEM. Wouldn't it be fun to be involved in that?

--- End quote ---

But you try and do any of those things today, commercially and effectively, without software.  That applies to many areas/sectors, but is it not very prevalent in STEM?

Anyway, overall STEM, if it's includes the medical and biological sciences is currently around 50/50.  It's subjects like biology etc. which are skewed toward women.  The engineering and tech side of things are struggling.  I feel like I should present a slide, but google it, it should show something similar.

IanB:

--- Quote from: paulca on August 22, 2022, 06:54:43 pm ---
--- Quote from: IanB on August 22, 2022, 05:56:59 pm ---If there is one thing I would suggest when promoting STEM in schools, it is to give the message that STEM is not computers. Just look around you and think of everything you encounter, use, touch or consume, from buildings, furniture, water, transport, infrastructure, fuel, vehicles, paints, plastics, food, anything man-made you can imagine. How did that stuff get designed and made? STEM. All of it, STEM. Wouldn't it be fun to be involved in that?

--- End quote ---

But you try and do any of those things today, commercially and effectively, without software.  That applies to many areas/sectors, but is it not very prevalent in STEM?
--- End quote ---

Software is a tool. Where in the past, people used slide rules, charts, calculators and notebooks, they now use software to help with the complex calculations. But the computers and software are not the goal, they are merely aids to efficient work, just as slide rules and calculators used to be.

I see every day examples of people looking at the results produced by computers and misinterpreting them because they have not appreciated the fundamental theory behind the calculations. If you enroll in a STEM program at a university, you are going to use computers, but they are only going to be the side dish, or the condiment accompanying the main meal.

sokoloff:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 06:52:39 pm ---What does stop calling things "master" and "slave" achieve? How does it help anyone? You do realise those who support this are typically white academics? I could post videos of black people complaining about this sort thing because they think it's patronising. It's also not free: time = money.
--- End quote ---
Of course you can find such videos. Not everyone (of any race) agrees that this is a major sticking point along the path towards equality of opportunity. We're not proposing abandoning the functional concept of devices who are in control and devices who follow. We're proposing abandoning the use of language that some people claim offense to. Just as giving in could be seen as giving power to those who agitate for the change, adamantly resisting could be seen as giving them even more power. It's a molehill. Don't get goaded into letting someone else make it into a mountain.

--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 06:52:39 pm ---How do you feel stating your pronouns helps anyone? I see it as a form of compelled speech.
--- End quote ---
Stating my pronouns is approximately as helpful (and likewise approximately as harmful) as confirming that my username has three o characters in it.


--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 06:52:39 pm ---Those who give into it are unwillingly saying they don't have a problem with gender ideology which responsible for killing women's sports and mutilating children. The person who dreamed all of this up, John Money, was a sicko. He did an experiment on Davie Reimer a boy who had been mutilated due to a botched circumcision when he was a baby. Money decided it would be a good idea to perform gender reassignment on him and persuade his parents to raise him as a girl. It went very badly, with Reimer committing suicide when he found out when he was a teenager and his twin brother killed himself soon after.
--- End quote ---
See, now you're compelling me to state clearly and for the record that I do have a problem with that chain of events and do not support it, even though I'm willing to voluntarily confirm that I'm a man and that I have three o's in my username.

Zero999:

--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 07:23:28 pm ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 06:52:39 pm ---What does stop calling things "master" and "slave" achieve? How does it help anyone? You do realise those who support this are typically white academics? I could post videos of black people complaining about this sort thing because they think it's patronising. It's also not free: time = money.
--- End quote ---
Of course you can find such videos. Not everyone (of any race) agrees that this is a major sticking point along the path towards equality of opportunity. We're not proposing abandoning the functional concept of devices who are in control and devices who follow. We're proposing abandoning the use of language that some people claim offense to. Just as giving in could be seen as giving power to those who agitate for the change, adamantly resisting could be seen as giving them even more power. It's a molehill. Don't get goaded into letting someone else make it into a mountain.

--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 06:52:39 pm ---How do you feel stating your pronouns helps anyone? I see it as a form of compelled speech.
--- End quote ---
Stating my pronouns is approximately as helpful (and likewise approximately as harmful) as confirming that my username has three o characters in it.


--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 22, 2022, 06:52:39 pm ---Those who give into it are unwillingly saying they don't have a problem with gender ideology which responsible for killing women's sports and mutilating children. The person who dreamed all of this up, John Money, was a sicko. He did an experiment on Davie Reimer a boy who had been mutilated due to a botched circumcision when he was a baby. Money decided it would be a good idea to perform gender reassignment on him and persuade his parents to raise him as a girl. It went very badly, with Reimer committing suicide when he found out when he was a teenager and his twin brother killed himself soon after.
--- End quote ---
See, now you're compelling me to state clearly and for the record that I do have a problem with that chain of events and do not support it, even though I'm willing to voluntarily confirm that I'm a man and that I have three o's in my username.

--- End quote ---
My point is it's a slippery slope. Firstly they tell you to stop using "master-slave" terminology, then they make you give your pronouns, what's next? Perhaps the term mother is offensive to some, so you have to use the term "birthing person", maybe the doctor should refer to you as a penis person, rather than man, when you have your prostate checked? Where does it stop?

I accept language changes as a natural process of evolution, but that's not what's happening here. It's forced to keep a tiny minority happy and it's mostly the privileged few sitting in their ivory towers, who are demanding it, rather than those who it's supposed to benefit.

I hope you realise you're making many people feel uncomfortable when you put your pronouns in your email. I've discussed this with others at work. The worry is anyone who is woke enough to do this, won't hesitate reporting someone to HR for saying anything un-PC. By all means state your pronouns, I believe in free speech and you shouldn't be censored because it makes people uncomfortable, just beware of the fact not everyone will take kindly to it.

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