General > General Technical Chat
Diversity, Equity and Inclusion
Nominal Animal:
--- Quote from: Simon on August 17, 2022, 07:56:49 pm ---As Jordan Paterson puts it: Men are interested in things and women are interested in people.
--- End quote ---
Not just "men" and "women", it applies to other primates as well. BBC Two has a video from a few years back, doing their own experiment with macaques:
Exactly because every individual is different -- that's why we are not representatives of "our group"; every single one of us represents a "group" of exactly one, themselves! –– there are natural, biological, evolutionary differences that makes "equity" (equality of outcome, as opposed to equality of opportunity) an utterly unfair proposition.
Fairness is a stronger, deeper thing than any oppression. An individual can be happy even if they are somewhat oppressed; but almost nobody can be happy in an unfair situation, even if objectively or statistically they have it better than someone else. Plus, while oppression seems to be a human concept, "fairness" is something that is observed across species:
It is not "the group" that spans the spectrum: it is the individuals. Anything that promotes a group over individuals is fundamentally unfair, and wrong.
EEVblog:
--- Quote from: james_s on August 18, 2022, 06:35:46 am ---I think your attitude toward it is really the only thing a person can do to push back, practice the art of not giving a shit, and most importantly never, ever apologize, because doing so will not appease the mob in the least, instead it is an admission of guilt and they will pounce all the more ferociously. The whole thing looks a lot like a rebranding of the old witch trials.
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In my case when they tried to cancel me I just ignored them, but when they went after my friends and tried to destroy them that was when I had to speak out, that crossed the line.
Unfortunately many (most?) people are not in the position I am to be able to ignore this stuff when I speak up about it. These people will go after your job, your sponsors, your funding platforms, and even your banks and other things.
And these attacks are always in the one direction from extreme left to supposed right.
Zoli:
--- Quote from: james_s on August 18, 2022, 06:35:46 am ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:43:48 am ---For those who want to know how deep the rot goes on this topic. Not only have I personally been attempted "cancelled" over this (which I really don't care about, water off a ducks back), but most disturbingly, friends and associates of mine have been attacked and they have tried to ruin their lives over mere association with someone who has the "wrong opinion" on this topic.
It is toxic to the core.
--- End quote ---
I think your attitude toward it is really the only thing a person can do to push back, practice the art of not giving a shit, and most importantly never, ever apologize, because doing so will not appease the mob in the least, instead it is an admission of guilt and they will pounce all the more ferociously. The whole thing looks a lot like a rebranding of the old witch trials.
--- End quote ---
Just a reminder what will happen if no one takes position:
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists
Zero999:
--- Quote from: HuronKing on August 17, 2022, 04:55:56 pm ---I'm going to be the one to take what will likely be the unpopular position in this forum...
Women have been actively excluded from the general workforce, but especially STEM disciplines and jobs, for literally thousands of years. The first black woman ever to get a Ph.D. from MIT didn't happen until 1973. MIT has been in existence since 1861:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Ann_Jackson
The first woman to ever get a mechanical engineering Ph.D. in the United States happened in 1959!!! This isn't ancient history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois_Graham#First_woman_in_US_to_earn_mechanical_engineering_PhD
Say nothing for trans/gay people in which it was literally a crime to be gay within living memory (the USA did not start to even begin decriminalizing it until 1962 starting with Illinois).
Y'all whining so much about 'unfair discrimination...' the fact is that there is a LOT of work to be done to undo thousands of years of holding back human civilization. We've kept at least half our available brainpower away from learning STEM because they have vaginas and kept even more by discriminating against people they are gay, or have the wrong color skin.
I've met a lot of incompetent white men who fail upwards - and met a lot of hyper-competent minorities and women (and I remember them because there are so few in the STEM field in the first place) who are expected to work twice as hard to earn what's been historically awarded to certain demographics by discrimination and even by law.
FYI I'm a straight white male.
--- End quote ---
That may very well have been true in the past, but it's not been the case for at least the last 20 years.
Correlation doesn't mean causation. The under-representation of a certain demographic in a field is not proof of discrimination. The fact Islamic countries have a greater proportion of women shows this. There will always be more people of a certain demographic doing a specific job or activity. It's not possible to construct a system where every demographic is equally represented in all walks of life, whilst maintaining a fair society.
The problem is, discrimination in the opposite direction, known as positive discrimination in the UK or affirmative action over the pond, is now making things worse. It results in unsuitable candidates being selected and a poorer quality workforce.
Zero999:
--- Quote from: T3sl4co1l on August 18, 2022, 04:35:29 am ---Oh yeah, this thread is going to go over well, I can smell it... :popcorn:
Jordan Peterson, besides generally saying many words with little substance, is widely critiqued and discredited, especially for his association to the alt-right in recent years. Which tells you all you really need to know about his followers. Anyway, some salient points here:
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I haven't watched that video yet. I might not agree with everything he says, but he definitely makes more sense than some of the far-left radicals. Matt Walsh is another person on the right who talks a lot of sense.
The person X is bad, so all of what they say is wrong, mob mentality of many people nowadays is grating. You do know it's possible to agree with someone on one thing, even if you strongly disagree or even despise some of their other views. I think many people forget that.
Would you employ someone who votes for a politician or disagrees with you on something, even though they might be the best person for the role? If not, why not?
Going from our discussions on other threads, it appears you disagree with me on many things, yet I thing you're one of the best engineers here. The fact you might be on a different part of the political spectrum than me wouldn't put me off working with you, just as long as we can agree to disagree and keep politics out of work.
--- Quote from: paulca on August 17, 2022, 04:03:10 pm ---
--- Quote from: wraper on August 17, 2022, 03:53:53 pm ---Or you could start "identifying" as woman for work purposes, and chose pronoun accordingly :-DD
--- End quote ---
Officer thinking.
Moving won't help. I've been working for one company contracted out to three different companies. Over the past few years and they are all the same.
Straight white male. Do not apply. We want diverse people and women.
--- End quote ---
Look for jobs in smaller organisations, which are less likely to be so woke. In the meantime, pretending to be trans does sound like a good workaround. All you need to do is state you identify as the opposite sex nowadays. No treatment is necessary. You could wear something a bit more feminine at work, just to prove the point.
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