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Diversity, Equity and Inclusion
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pcprogrammer:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 26, 2022, 02:20:40 pm ---Do you let that tribalism rule?  Do you make your laws to codify that sort of behaviour?  Does your company allow workers to frown on everyone different from their point of view?

--- End quote ---

It is not a point to justify it, it is to indicate that this has happened and will unfortunately keep on happening. On small scale and large scale. You pointed out yourself that even the movement to try to improve it all does more or less the same. They frown upon the ones that don't see eye to eye with them.


--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 26, 2022, 02:20:40 pm ---It is not at all clear cut what is ethically and morally right and acceptable with respect to tribalism, particularly when one considers the long-term effects.

We probably should accept some tribalism as natural, for example letting people decide from themselves where they want to live, assuming they can afford it and support themselves and their families there.  I do not accept it when it goes as far as rejecting interaction with someone "out-group", nor when it becomes rejection of someone "in-group" because they're not a member of some protected group.
In between those two limits, there is the gray area where I make up my mind on a case-by-case basis.

--- End quote ---

To me it is clear cut, and I agree that in a better world this should not happen, but the problem is that there are a lot of people that don't see it. And even worse, people that can be put in front of the cart and perform acts of terrorism without a proper thought about it.


--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 26, 2022, 02:20:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 10:52:55 am ---And equality in its whole is basically irrational to demand it.
--- End quote ---
Absolutely not.  Equality is about equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome or equity, which is what you described.

It is not okay at all to confuse the two.

--- End quote ---

There you stumble on a language thing. Demanding equal opportunity that is fair, as long as you are willing to put in the effort. We can't give every body what they want just because they demand to be treated or seen as equal.

What I meant is we are not equal. Everybody is an individual and shares some similarities with others but also a lot of differences.

Further more I think it is impossible to have full equality of opportunity in the society as it is now. You would need to get rid of the huge diversions between poverty and rich first to level the playing field. But being born in either of the milieus is no guaranty someone will succeed in life, no matter how many opportunities they are given. Just because we are all different.

I have wrote this before, you are better with words than I am :)

Nominal Animal:

--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 03:45:41 pm ---There you stumble on a language thing. Demanding equal opportunity that is fair, as long as you are willing to put in the effort. We can't give every body what they want just because they demand to be treated or seen as equal.

What I meant is we are not equal. Everybody is an individual and shares some similarities with others but also a lot of differences.

--- End quote ---
Ah, okay: I like to describe that as "we are not interchangeable; we are individuals".


--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 03:45:41 pm ---Further more I think it is impossible to have full equality of opportunity in the society as it is now.
--- End quote ---
True, and there are even genetic factors, completely outside our control.

And it looks like general intelligence, the g-factor, is one of these.  It can be reduced by poor nutrition and stress and brain damage, but there are no known methods to reliably increase it.  Even teaching how intelligence tests work and how to "game" them only helps by at most one standard deviation (15 points), and really only can be done by those who are already near or above the median (100 points).


--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 03:45:41 pm ---I have wrote this before, you are better with words than I am :)
--- End quote ---
No, me fail English often.  It may look like that, because I re-read everything I write as if I was someone else, and compare what I wrote to what I intended, and end up editing a lot.  Better consider it as verbosity combined with a lot of effort spent to try and convey specific ideas.  (I am not suggesting everyone should do so, nor do I consider it a good thing per se.  I only do this because I feel I need to.)
pcprogrammer:

--- Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 03:35:26 pm ---First I think the main reason they want to push "good" people into management, is they are really short on good technically minded managers.

--- End quote ---

But when they do that with people that are not good at managing it makes no sense. I'm certainly for managers that know at least some basic technical stuff when they have to manage a group of technicians although not always needed, but a technician with no manager skills is a recipe for disaster.


--- Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 03:35:26 pm ---But mostly it comes down to the roles they provide on the ladder.  From "principle engineer" which I achieved only a year ago after an age as Senior.  That in itself was a fiasco.  To get promoted I had to set objectives towards key skills and demonstrate at the principle level.  However I was contracted full time to a customer as a senior and there was zero room to demonstrate any higher position.  I tried to reach out to the team as a facilitator to see how that went and got it thrown back to me that, "Your not senior to us, why would we listen to you, in fact we resent it.", they typically added, "and lets not bullshit, we don't work for Company X, we work for "Customer Y", so your authority if you did have any is moot.

My senior at the time, holding the promotion from me said, "Paul, titles don't matter, it's how you work people that promotes you.", when I mentioned this to HR (yes it got that bad), their response was "Tell him to say that when he orders people around without his Senior Delivery Manager title and see how many people tell him to get lost."

Role is a triangle.  You need the title and the authority to go along with the responsibility.

--- End quote ---

I do agree somewhat with your senior at the time. There are people who have such charisma that they don't need a title to move people in doing a good job. But there are also a lot of people that won't move unless you have a title.


--- Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 03:35:26 pm ---The career ladder, while it is supposed to have tech/non tech split, introduces many "key skills and values" at the next level up, which is Solutions Architect.  There you are required to become a stakeholder in the management meetings, to be aware of delivery contracts, commercials etc.  In my last 1to1 with management discussing career I pointed out, that from the 4 or 5 items listed as additional responsibilities and skills for architect, only one of them is technical (ownership of larger multi-team / multicomponent solutions), the rest are pseudo management tasks.  His response was that the letter of the role is flexible.  Going up, will not mean you end up in a desk job.  I don't believe him.

At the moment I am in a kinda "custom" position, because I stated I do not want to do people management.  I can't be technically honest while being people line manager and I don't have good people management skills either.   So while normally a "tech lead" on a project would also be the "team leader" and possible "line manager" for people, I am not given the people management role. 

I don't think they are trying to get rid of me, when they are allowing me to basically, currently, choose my own role.  Also, I haven't asked for a pay rise, ever.  However I get one every year.  I didn't get one this year, but that's because they promoted me and... gave me a £8k rise for that.  When I started paid, proper career in 2007 I figured a nice target would be a 2K rise per year.  I've averaged more than that.  Besides a fair salary, not stellar, but if the company do well and I do well, there is maximum 10% salary bonus.  I have received that bonus every year with the company, all 10%.

--- End quote ---

Based on this information I think you are right in that they don't want to get rid of you.


--- Quote from: paulca on August 26, 2022, 03:35:26 pm ---To give you a slightly indication of the culture at the company which actually employee me.  The first video call after they had bought the company, the CEO opened the video presentation by introducing the head of people and talent (a fairly fat woman) and saying, "we'd hear from her at the end of the call, she might even sing so we know it's over.".  It took me a while, as that joke was not expected at all in a CEO company wide meeting, but, yes, he did make the "its over when the fat lady sings" joke.  It's an Irish/UK company.  I think I'm safe for a while yet.

--- End quote ---

Well there is a lawsuit waiting to happen :-DD
paulca:
On fringe issues at the extremes, after sending myself to some very dark places and genuinely questioning myself and asking if I AM a right wing bigot, I have decided an approach.

I will only discuss things which use the common, established, definitions of words and I will NOT discuss ideology, theology or sex in work.  That makes it very difficult for me to even encroach on the trigger areas and if it's raised against me, I can hold them at the definitions point indefinitely.

Once they start talking about different definitions for words, I will pull the meeting back to the re-establishing "definitions and terms of reference", a standard business meeting practice to avoid miss communications.  I simply cannot discuss something with anyone if we are not using the same definitions for words and it is NOT my employers place to push ideology upon me in the work place, nor requirement to redefine common English to do so.

Transphobia.  Fear of movement.
sokoloff:

--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 26, 2022, 03:45:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 26, 2022, 02:20:40 pm ---Absolutely not.  Equality is about equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome or equity, which is what you described.

It is not okay at all to confuse the two.
--- End quote ---

There you stumble on a language thing. Demanding equal opportunity that is fair, as long as you are willing to put in the effort. We can't give every body what they want just because they demand to be treated or seen as equal.

What I meant is we are not equal. Everybody is an individual and shares some similarities with others but also a lot of differences.

Further more I think it is impossible to have full equality of opportunity in the society as it is now. You would need to get rid of the huge diversions between poverty and rich first to level the playing field. But being born in either of the milieus is no guaranty someone will succeed in life, no matter how many opportunities they are given. Just because we are all different.
--- End quote ---
I am openly, actively, and proudly trying to improve the opportunity my kids have. Just as my parents did for me and their parents did for them. It's how my parents became the first generation in either side of our family to attend any college at all. It's how my parents scrimped and saved to buy me a computer when that's what I wanted most, leading directly to my enjoyable and successful career. It's why they lived below their means to be able to give each of us siblings $10K to help buy our first house and to retire without burdening the next generation financially.

All of those represent improvements in the opportunities they afforded to their family and I do my best to afford analogous improvements for my family.

I don't see any reasonable way to both encourage families to avail themselves of these means to improve their opportunities and demand perfect equality of opportunity across the population.
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