Author Topic: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!  (Read 6592 times)

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Offline ELS122Topic starter

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djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« on: August 24, 2023, 09:46:37 am »
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best
0 fuss, very intuitive UI, every thing you would want can be done in the settings.
Lightning fast zoom, no problems with it taking years to load a single page after you zoomed in like you often do with pdfs. You also get buttons to fit the page vertically or horizontally
All the modes like side-by-side are right there at the top, no need to go into a menu
"Back" button
Also a select tool, crop out a part and export it as high resolution png or whatever, Or zoom into it, Or highlight it, Or add a bookmark, Or copy it ofc.


And recently I was looking at a djvu file and I wanted to like screenshot the page, out of curiosity I right clicked, and guess what prompt there was... "Export page...", exporting the page in high resolution as a png or gif or jpeg, etc. There's also "page information" which shows details about what images are on the page in what resolution.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.


Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2023, 10:38:51 am »
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best
0 fuss, very intuitive UI, every thing you would want can be done in the settings.
Lightning fast zoom, no problems with it taking years to load a single page after you zoomed in like you often do with pdfs. You also get buttons to fit the page vertically or horizontally
All the modes like side-by-side are right there at the top, no need to go into a menu
"Back" button
Also a select tool, crop out a part and export it as high resolution png or whatever, Or zoom into it, Or highlight it, Or add a bookmark, Or copy it ofc.


And recently I was looking at a djvu file and I wanted to like screenshot the page, out of curiosity I right clicked, and guess what prompt there was... "Export page...", exporting the page in high resolution as a png or gif or jpeg, etc. There's also "page information" which shows details about what images are on the page in what resolution.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.


Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux. The Okular PDF reader (just to give 1 example out of many PDF readers available for Linux) can do all the things you mention.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2023, 10:41:23 am »
well, no problem here on macos as pdf are highly integrated to the operating system, and for 20 years...
...
and MacDJView is looking as a last century app ...
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2023, 11:03:05 am »
Quote
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux.

Actually, the problem is likely the use of Acrobat rather than the OS. There are many alternative PDF clients for Windows that are good as well, you know. (Although, apparently you don't.)
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2023, 11:11:47 am »
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux. The Okular PDF reader (just to give 1 example out of many PDF readers available for Linux) can do all the things you mention.
Okular also has its issues, but its developers are very responsive. I came across a few issues with Okular a few years ago, reported them, and days later they were resolved. I still use Okular. I haven't found anything better, as long as you aren't doing form filling.

 

Offline Karel

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2023, 11:21:59 am »
If you are condemned to use windows you can try Sumatra PDF:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumatra_PDF?useskin=vector

Edit: Okular is also available for windows:

https://okular.kde.org/download/


« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 11:25:30 am by Karel »
 
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Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2023, 01:02:44 pm »
Quote
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux.

Actually, the problem is likely the use of Acrobat rather than the OS. There are many alternative PDF clients for Windows that are good as well, you know. (Although, apparently you don't.)

As in? they open pdf's?
If you know a pdf reader that is free, has a very intuitive UI, has an option to export a page in high resolution images, then I'll retract my statement. And also that doesn't take a year to reload the page when you zoom in, that doesnt take long to load the pdf at all. Which winDJView I've never seen a loading icon lasting more than half a second. Meanwhile PDF's take over a second to even show up.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2023, 01:45:12 pm »
https://pdf-xchange.eu/pdf-xchange-editor/index.htm

[Edit]
And Okular looks good. Not as good as pdfXchange in some respects but a hell of a lot better than Acrobat :)

Thanks for pointing out the Windows version, Karel. Pity it's Microsoft Store but with a bit of perseverance you can get around that (and it then works on W7).
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 01:56:25 pm by PlainName »
 

Offline rdl

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2023, 02:03:23 pm »
I like SumatraPDF because it's a true portable application and doesn't go messing around in the Windows Registry. Just unzip it somewhere that makes sense, and run it. It can open your DjVu files and a lot of others. I think it covers most of what you want except the full page export. I dunno, never had a need for that. You can control+click and drag to select anything and copy it to the clipboard though.
 
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Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2023, 03:03:45 pm »
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best

There is some pretty good programs for PDF, acrobat will be hated just because its the market leader.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.

Well PDF was the right format at the right time so they have the market share. Sorry but 99% of computers have the ability to read PDF where as djvu is just another format trying to get into a market already covered.

Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.

Meh, if it was people would still complain. Take any programming language as an example.


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Offline nctnico

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2023, 03:28:59 pm »
Meh, if it was people would still complain. Take any programming language as an example.
Or even better: PCB design software. I don't think there is any kind of software for which there are so many different packages as for doing PCB design. And they all work different with people loving and hating each package for a good reason.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2023, 03:32:01 pm »
I have been using SumatraPDF, and before that Foxit, for viewing and printing PDF files.
 

Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2023, 09:22:05 pm »
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best

There is some pretty good programs for PDF, acrobat will be hated just because its the market leader.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.

Well PDF was the right format at the right time so they have the market share. Sorry but 99% of computers have the ability to read PDF where as djvu is just another format trying to get into a market already covered.

Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.

Meh, if it was people would still complain. Take any programming language as an example.

Nooo, Acrobat reader is hated because it's borderline unusable, if you've ever attempted to use it, you immidietly get why it's hated.
And I don't know anyone who uses it, Firefox has a PDF reader built in that I use.
Well windows 7 for sure doesn't have any built in pdf reader.
reading the wiki page for djvu, it appeared ages ago. And apparently the compression is more efficient than pdf

People do complain about acrobat, then when they swap to like the built in browser pdf reader which actually works, they are silent because it's so much better than acrobat that you ignore it's own shortcomings

Do any of these suggested pdf readers have a DRM feature? I've heard that pdf's can have DRM added and that causes some problems if your reader supports it.
And also, there for sure isn't any good pdf reader plugin for firefox, the built in one is pretty much the best but that lacks features.

SumatraPDF doesnt have page export.
Okular only can be downloaded on the windows store.
XChange editor looks super sketch, and since there's a buy option, I presume it's gonna be like "you've reached the limit of the daily pdf views" or "want to zoom in? pay only 9.99 a month to get EVERY feature"
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 09:39:20 pm by ELS122 »
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2023, 10:00:24 pm »
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best
0 fuss, very intuitive UI, every thing you would want can be done in the settings.
Lightning fast zoom, no problems with it taking years to load a single page after you zoomed in like you often do with pdfs. You also get buttons to fit the page vertically or horizontally
All the modes like side-by-side are right there at the top, no need to go into a menu
"Back" button
Also a select tool, crop out a part and export it as high resolution png or whatever, Or zoom into it, Or highlight it, Or add a bookmark, Or copy it ofc.


And recently I was looking at a djvu file and I wanted to like screenshot the page, out of curiosity I right clicked, and guess what prompt there was... "Export page...", exporting the page in high resolution as a png or gif or jpeg, etc. There's also "page information" which shows details about what images are on the page in what resolution.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.


Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux. The Okular PDF reader (just to give 1 example out of many PDF readers available for Linux) can do all the things you mention.

Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.
 
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2023, 10:14:33 pm »
How quaint,having to install 3rd party software to read and print pdf's.
 

Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2023, 10:33:17 pm »
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best
0 fuss, very intuitive UI, every thing you would want can be done in the settings.
Lightning fast zoom, no problems with it taking years to load a single page after you zoomed in like you often do with pdfs. You also get buttons to fit the page vertically or horizontally
All the modes like side-by-side are right there at the top, no need to go into a menu
"Back" button
Also a select tool, crop out a part and export it as high resolution png or whatever, Or zoom into it, Or highlight it, Or add a bookmark, Or copy it ofc.


And recently I was looking at a djvu file and I wanted to like screenshot the page, out of curiosity I right clicked, and guess what prompt there was... "Export page...", exporting the page in high resolution as a png or gif or jpeg, etc. There's also "page information" which shows details about what images are on the page in what resolution.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.


Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux. The Okular PDF reader (just to give 1 example out of many PDF readers available for Linux) can do all the things you mention.

Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.



It does have a feature that you can select and save, but not for the whole page.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2023, 06:33:30 am »
Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.

It does have a feature that you can select and save, but not for the whole page.

As what? PDF or plain text?
For manipulating pdf (extracting or concatenating pages of one or more documents) use PDFtk:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDFtk?useskin=vector

Code: [Select]
pdftk input.pdf cat 152 output output.pdf

152 = pagenumber

pdftk input.pdf cat 152-168 output output.pdf

152-168 = page range

pdftk input.pdf cat 150 145 152 output output.pdf

only pages 150, 145 and 152

pdftk input.pdf cat 10-20~15 25 output output.pdf

only pages 10 to 20 and 25 but not 15

rotate clockwise:

pdftk input.pdf cat 1-endeast output output.pdf

rotate anti-clockwise:

pdftk input.pdf cat 1-endwest output output.pdf

If you want to select and save one page as text in Okular, go to Edit -> Select all text on current page and paste it into
whatever you like.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2023, 06:37:10 am by Karel »
 

Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2023, 07:05:12 am »
Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.

It does have a feature that you can select and save, but not for the whole page.

As what? PDF or plain text?
For manipulating pdf (extracting or concatenating pages of one or more documents) use PDFtk:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDFtk?useskin=vector

Code: [Select]
pdftk input.pdf cat 152 output output.pdf

152 = pagenumber

pdftk input.pdf cat 152-168 output output.pdf

152-168 = page range

pdftk input.pdf cat 150 145 152 output output.pdf

only pages 150, 145 and 152

pdftk input.pdf cat 10-20~15 25 output output.pdf

only pages 10 to 20 and 25 but not 15

rotate clockwise:

pdftk input.pdf cat 1-endeast output output.pdf

rotate anti-clockwise:

pdftk input.pdf cat 1-endwest output output.pdf

If you want to select and save one page as text in Okular, go to Edit -> Select all text on current page and paste it into
whatever you like.


Oh so you're saying pdf doesnt have worse software because I can use yet another command line program to extract pages, something which djvuviewer has built in?
I don't know anyone who would want to use a program to view the file, then a different command line tool to extract a page. Over being able to do both with one program.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2023, 07:46:46 am »
Quote
XChange editor looks super sketch, and since there's a buy option, I presume it's gonna be like "you've reached the limit of the daily pdf views" or "want to zoom in? pay only 9.99 a month to get EVERY feature"

If you bother to check that page you will see that the free version, after the evaluation period, is fully functional but adds a watermark. For reading that's a non-issue.

Support is good. I use it for copy editing and the stamp feature is much better that any of the other editor/readers I've looked at, which is good because stamps are 90% of the work in that scenario. There is one aspect of stamps that gets up my nose, but even my SO (for whom I subcontract) doesn't notice it so it's a very niche issue. Nevertheless, I contacted support and (after being kept informed on progress) it is apparently fixed in the next release. Since I expected the usual first line brushoff, I am impressed with both the speed of response and ownership of the ticket.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2023, 07:56:25 am »
Oh so you're saying pdf doesnt have worse software because I can use yet another command line program to extract pages, something which djvuviewer has built in?
I don't know anyone who would want to use a program to view the file, then a different command line tool to extract a page. Over being able to do both with one program.

Using the commandline is faster and lowers the risk of rsi.
 

Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2023, 08:35:12 am »
Oh so you're saying pdf doesnt have worse software because I can use yet another command line program to extract pages, something which djvuviewer has built in?
I don't know anyone who would want to use a program to view the file, then a different command line tool to extract a page. Over being able to do both with one program.

Using the commandline is faster and lowers the risk of rsi.

Well at that point I'll just use a command line interface for this forum. lowers the risk of seeing an incomplete html load.  ;D
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2023, 08:55:46 am »
99% of the world uses PDF for document distribution. Get over it. You can have the best djvu reader in the world, but that means nothing.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2023, 10:10:54 am »
Quote
99% of the world uses PDF for document distribution

This is the crux of it - it's a done deal. Send a djvu document and 99.9% of people will reply saying either the file is corrupt or can you send it in a proper format. No-one has to think about how to deal with pdf.

As a similar example, look at zip vs rar and any other 'better' compression. If djvu is compelling (and the format has to be, not a single instance of a client) then perhaps in 10 years it will be where rar is now compared to zip.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2023, 10:34:26 am »
Nooo, Acrobat reader is hated because it's borderline unusable, if you've ever attempted to use it, you immidietly get why it's hated.
And I don't know anyone who uses it, Firefox has a PDF reader built in that I use.

I don't hate it, I have used it since getting windows '95. For the past 20 years I have had Acrobat, not just the reader. There are shittier programs out there.

Well windows 7 for sure doesn't have any built in pdf reader.

Doesn't Edge offer to read PDF. But its not a real issue as a there are plenty of readers out there.

reading the wiki page for djvu, it appeared ages ago. And apparently the compression is more efficient than pdf

PDF wasn't designed around compression it was designed to solve a different issue. I could take a PDF and put it through some file compression programs to get a smaller file but its not always practical.

People do complain about acrobat, then when they swap to like the built in browser pdf reader which actually works, they are silent because it's so much better than acrobat that you ignore it's own shortcomings

I get frustrated regularly by the browser implemented file viewers. Many of them don't support the file properly so you end up not being able to Fill out form style PDFs or even add a signature.

Do any of these suggested pdf readers have a DRM feature? I've heard that pdf's can have DRM added and that causes some problems if your reader supports it.

Yes but it was more to just protect documents from being edited before going into print, some of it was also to prevent people from printing unauthorised copies. Won't stop someone who really wants to copy it but it prevented basic errors.

I know I had to install a DRM plugin for some documents and they are just annoying.

And also, there for sure isn't any good pdf reader plugin for firefox, the built in one is pretty much the best but that lacks features.
SumatraPDF doesnt have page export.
Okular only can be downloaded on the windows store.
XChange editor looks super sketch, and since there's a buy option, I presume it's gonna be like "you've reached the limit of the daily pdf views" or "want to zoom in? pay only 9.99 a month to get EVERY feature"

TBH Vi is the best and there is no reason to use anything else. I just get a feeling you are a bit of a shill, but you are welcome to disagree with me. PDF just works and is supported by most systems and can be used by many programs to do stuff.
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Offline coppice

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Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2023, 02:20:39 pm »
99% of the world uses PDF for document distribution. Get over it. You can have the best djvu reader in the world, but that means nothing.
The most interesting aspect of this thread is it reminded me that djvu exists. I haven't seen a thing about it for years.
 
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