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General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: ELS122 on August 24, 2023, 09:46:37 am

Title: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 24, 2023, 09:46:37 am
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best
0 fuss, very intuitive UI, every thing you would want can be done in the settings.
Lightning fast zoom, no problems with it taking years to load a single page after you zoomed in like you often do with pdfs. You also get buttons to fit the page vertically or horizontally
All the modes like side-by-side are right there at the top, no need to go into a menu
"Back" button
Also a select tool, crop out a part and export it as high resolution png or whatever, Or zoom into it, Or highlight it, Or add a bookmark, Or copy it ofc.


And recently I was looking at a djvu file and I wanted to like screenshot the page, out of curiosity I right clicked, and guess what prompt there was... "Export page...", exporting the page in high resolution as a png or gif or jpeg, etc. There's also "page information" which shows details about what images are on the page in what resolution.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.


Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: nctnico on August 24, 2023, 10:38:51 am
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best
0 fuss, very intuitive UI, every thing you would want can be done in the settings.
Lightning fast zoom, no problems with it taking years to load a single page after you zoomed in like you often do with pdfs. You also get buttons to fit the page vertically or horizontally
All the modes like side-by-side are right there at the top, no need to go into a menu
"Back" button
Also a select tool, crop out a part and export it as high resolution png or whatever, Or zoom into it, Or highlight it, Or add a bookmark, Or copy it ofc.


And recently I was looking at a djvu file and I wanted to like screenshot the page, out of curiosity I right clicked, and guess what prompt there was... "Export page...", exporting the page in high resolution as a png or gif or jpeg, etc. There's also "page information" which shows details about what images are on the page in what resolution.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.


Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux. The Okular PDF reader (just to give 1 example out of many PDF readers available for Linux) can do all the things you mention.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: kripton2035 on August 24, 2023, 10:41:23 am
well, no problem here on macos as pdf are highly integrated to the operating system, and for 20 years...
...
and MacDJView is looking as a last century app ...
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: PlainName on August 24, 2023, 11:03:05 am
Quote
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux.

Actually, the problem is likely the use of Acrobat rather than the OS. There are many alternative PDF clients for Windows that are good as well, you know. (Although, apparently you don't.)
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: coppice on August 24, 2023, 11:11:47 am
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux. The Okular PDF reader (just to give 1 example out of many PDF readers available for Linux) can do all the things you mention.
Okular also has its issues, but its developers are very responsive. I came across a few issues with Okular a few years ago, reported them, and days later they were resolved. I still use Okular. I haven't found anything better, as long as you aren't doing form filling.

Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: Karel on August 24, 2023, 11:21:59 am
If you are condemned to use windows you can try Sumatra PDF:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumatra_PDF?useskin=vector (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumatra_PDF?useskin=vector)

Edit: Okular is also available for windows:

https://okular.kde.org/download/ (https://okular.kde.org/download/)


Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 24, 2023, 01:02:44 pm
Quote
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux.

Actually, the problem is likely the use of Acrobat rather than the OS. There are many alternative PDF clients for Windows that are good as well, you know. (Although, apparently you don't.)

As in? they open pdf's?
If you know a pdf reader that is free, has a very intuitive UI, has an option to export a page in high resolution images, then I'll retract my statement. And also that doesn't take a year to reload the page when you zoom in, that doesnt take long to load the pdf at all. Which winDJView I've never seen a loading icon lasting more than half a second. Meanwhile PDF's take over a second to even show up.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: PlainName on August 24, 2023, 01:45:12 pm
https://pdf-xchange.eu/pdf-xchange-editor/index.htm

[Edit]
And Okular looks good. Not as good as pdfXchange in some respects but a hell of a lot better than Acrobat :)

Thanks for pointing out the Windows version, Karel. Pity it's Microsoft Store but with a bit of perseverance you can get around that (and it then works on W7).
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: rdl on August 24, 2023, 02:03:23 pm
I like SumatraPDF because it's a true portable application and doesn't go messing around in the Windows Registry. Just unzip it somewhere that makes sense, and run it. It can open your DjVu files and a lot of others. I think it covers most of what you want except the full page export. I dunno, never had a need for that. You can control+click and drag to select anything and copy it to the clipboard though.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: mendip_discovery on August 24, 2023, 03:03:45 pm
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best

There is some pretty good programs for PDF, acrobat will be hated just because its the market leader.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.

Well PDF was the right format at the right time so they have the market share. Sorry but 99% of computers have the ability to read PDF where as djvu is just another format trying to get into a market already covered.

Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.

Meh, if it was people would still complain. Take any programming language as an example.


Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: nctnico on August 24, 2023, 03:28:59 pm
Meh, if it was people would still complain. Take any programming language as an example.
Or even better: PCB design software. I don't think there is any kind of software for which there are so many different packages as for doing PCB design. And they all work different with people loving and hating each package for a good reason.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: David Hess on August 24, 2023, 03:32:01 pm
I have been using SumatraPDF, and before that Foxit, for viewing and printing PDF files.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 24, 2023, 09:22:05 pm
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best

There is some pretty good programs for PDF, acrobat will be hated just because its the market leader.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.

Well PDF was the right format at the right time so they have the market share. Sorry but 99% of computers have the ability to read PDF where as djvu is just another format trying to get into a market already covered.

Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.

Meh, if it was people would still complain. Take any programming language as an example.

Nooo, Acrobat reader is hated because it's borderline unusable, if you've ever attempted to use it, you immidietly get why it's hated.
And I don't know anyone who uses it, Firefox has a PDF reader built in that I use.
Well windows 7 for sure doesn't have any built in pdf reader.
reading the wiki page for djvu, it appeared ages ago. And apparently the compression is more efficient than pdf

People do complain about acrobat, then when they swap to like the built in browser pdf reader which actually works, they are silent because it's so much better than acrobat that you ignore it's own shortcomings

Do any of these suggested pdf readers have a DRM feature? I've heard that pdf's can have DRM added and that causes some problems if your reader supports it.
And also, there for sure isn't any good pdf reader plugin for firefox, the built in one is pretty much the best but that lacks features.

SumatraPDF doesnt have page export.
Okular only can be downloaded on the windows store.
XChange editor looks super sketch, and since there's a buy option, I presume it's gonna be like "you've reached the limit of the daily pdf views" or "want to zoom in? pay only 9.99 a month to get EVERY feature"
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: SiliconWizard on August 24, 2023, 10:00:24 pm
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best
0 fuss, very intuitive UI, every thing you would want can be done in the settings.
Lightning fast zoom, no problems with it taking years to load a single page after you zoomed in like you often do with pdfs. You also get buttons to fit the page vertically or horizontally
All the modes like side-by-side are right there at the top, no need to go into a menu
"Back" button
Also a select tool, crop out a part and export it as high resolution png or whatever, Or zoom into it, Or highlight it, Or add a bookmark, Or copy it ofc.


And recently I was looking at a djvu file and I wanted to like screenshot the page, out of curiosity I right clicked, and guess what prompt there was... "Export page...", exporting the page in high resolution as a png or gif or jpeg, etc. There's also "page information" which shows details about what images are on the page in what resolution.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.


Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux. The Okular PDF reader (just to give 1 example out of many PDF readers available for Linux) can do all the things you mention.

Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: themadhippy on August 24, 2023, 10:14:33 pm
How quaint,having to install 3rd party software to read and print pdf's.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 24, 2023, 10:33:17 pm
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best
0 fuss, very intuitive UI, every thing you would want can be done in the settings.
Lightning fast zoom, no problems with it taking years to load a single page after you zoomed in like you often do with pdfs. You also get buttons to fit the page vertically or horizontally
All the modes like side-by-side are right there at the top, no need to go into a menu
"Back" button
Also a select tool, crop out a part and export it as high resolution png or whatever, Or zoom into it, Or highlight it, Or add a bookmark, Or copy it ofc.


And recently I was looking at a djvu file and I wanted to like screenshot the page, out of curiosity I right clicked, and guess what prompt there was... "Export page...", exporting the page in high resolution as a png or gif or jpeg, etc. There's also "page information" which shows details about what images are on the page in what resolution.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.


Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux. The Okular PDF reader (just to give 1 example out of many PDF readers available for Linux) can do all the things you mention.

Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.



It does have a feature that you can select and save, but not for the whole page.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: Karel on August 25, 2023, 06:33:30 am
Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.

It does have a feature that you can select and save, but not for the whole page.

As what? PDF or plain text?
For manipulating pdf (extracting or concatenating pages of one or more documents) use PDFtk:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDFtk?useskin=vector (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDFtk?useskin=vector)

Code: [Select]
pdftk input.pdf cat 152 output output.pdf

152 = pagenumber

pdftk input.pdf cat 152-168 output output.pdf

152-168 = page range

pdftk input.pdf cat 150 145 152 output output.pdf

only pages 150, 145 and 152

pdftk input.pdf cat 10-20~15 25 output output.pdf

only pages 10 to 20 and 25 but not 15

rotate clockwise:

pdftk input.pdf cat 1-endeast output output.pdf

rotate anti-clockwise:

pdftk input.pdf cat 1-endwest output output.pdf

If you want to select and save one page as text in Okular, go to Edit -> Select all text on current page and paste it into
whatever you like.

Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 25, 2023, 07:05:12 am
Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.

It does have a feature that you can select and save, but not for the whole page.

As what? PDF or plain text?
For manipulating pdf (extracting or concatenating pages of one or more documents) use PDFtk:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDFtk?useskin=vector (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDFtk?useskin=vector)

Code: [Select]
pdftk input.pdf cat 152 output output.pdf

152 = pagenumber

pdftk input.pdf cat 152-168 output output.pdf

152-168 = page range

pdftk input.pdf cat 150 145 152 output output.pdf

only pages 150, 145 and 152

pdftk input.pdf cat 10-20~15 25 output output.pdf

only pages 10 to 20 and 25 but not 15

rotate clockwise:

pdftk input.pdf cat 1-endeast output output.pdf

rotate anti-clockwise:

pdftk input.pdf cat 1-endwest output output.pdf

If you want to select and save one page as text in Okular, go to Edit -> Select all text on current page and paste it into
whatever you like.


Oh so you're saying pdf doesnt have worse software because I can use yet another command line program to extract pages, something which djvuviewer has built in?
I don't know anyone who would want to use a program to view the file, then a different command line tool to extract a page. Over being able to do both with one program.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: PlainName on August 25, 2023, 07:46:46 am
Quote
XChange editor looks super sketch, and since there's a buy option, I presume it's gonna be like "you've reached the limit of the daily pdf views" or "want to zoom in? pay only 9.99 a month to get EVERY feature"

If you bother to check that page you will see that the free version, after the evaluation period, is fully functional but adds a watermark. For reading that's a non-issue.

Support is good. I use it for copy editing and the stamp feature is much better that any of the other editor/readers I've looked at, which is good because stamps are 90% of the work in that scenario. There is one aspect of stamps that gets up my nose, but even my SO (for whom I subcontract) doesn't notice it so it's a very niche issue. Nevertheless, I contacted support and (after being kept informed on progress) it is apparently fixed in the next release. Since I expected the usual first line brushoff, I am impressed with both the speed of response and ownership of the ticket.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: Karel on August 25, 2023, 07:56:25 am
Oh so you're saying pdf doesnt have worse software because I can use yet another command line program to extract pages, something which djvuviewer has built in?
I don't know anyone who would want to use a program to view the file, then a different command line tool to extract a page. Over being able to do both with one program.

Using the commandline is faster and lowers the risk of rsi.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 25, 2023, 08:35:12 am
Oh so you're saying pdf doesnt have worse software because I can use yet another command line program to extract pages, something which djvuviewer has built in?
I don't know anyone who would want to use a program to view the file, then a different command line tool to extract a page. Over being able to do both with one program.

Using the commandline is faster and lowers the risk of rsi.

Well at that point I'll just use a command line interface for this forum. lowers the risk of seeing an incomplete html load.  ;D
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: Gyro on August 25, 2023, 08:55:46 am
99% of the world uses PDF for document distribution. Get over it. You can have the best djvu reader in the world, but that means nothing.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: PlainName on August 25, 2023, 10:10:54 am
Quote
99% of the world uses PDF for document distribution

This is the crux of it - it's a done deal. Send a djvu document and 99.9% of people will reply saying either the file is corrupt or can you send it in a proper format. No-one has to think about how to deal with pdf.

As a similar example, look at zip vs rar and any other 'better' compression. If djvu is compelling (and the format has to be, not a single instance of a client) then perhaps in 10 years it will be where rar is now compared to zip.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: mendip_discovery on August 25, 2023, 10:34:26 am
Nooo, Acrobat reader is hated because it's borderline unusable, if you've ever attempted to use it, you immidietly get why it's hated.
And I don't know anyone who uses it, Firefox has a PDF reader built in that I use.

I don't hate it, I have used it since getting windows '95. For the past 20 years I have had Acrobat, not just the reader. There are shittier programs out there.

Well windows 7 for sure doesn't have any built in pdf reader.

Doesn't Edge offer to read PDF. But its not a real issue as a there are plenty of readers out there.

reading the wiki page for djvu, it appeared ages ago. And apparently the compression is more efficient than pdf

PDF wasn't designed around compression it was designed to solve a different issue. I could take a PDF and put it through some file compression programs to get a smaller file but its not always practical.

People do complain about acrobat, then when they swap to like the built in browser pdf reader which actually works, they are silent because it's so much better than acrobat that you ignore it's own shortcomings

I get frustrated regularly by the browser implemented file viewers. Many of them don't support the file properly so you end up not being able to Fill out form style PDFs or even add a signature.

Do any of these suggested pdf readers have a DRM feature? I've heard that pdf's can have DRM added and that causes some problems if your reader supports it.

Yes but it was more to just protect documents from being edited before going into print, some of it was also to prevent people from printing unauthorised copies. Won't stop someone who really wants to copy it but it prevented basic errors.

I know I had to install a DRM plugin for some documents and they are just annoying.

And also, there for sure isn't any good pdf reader plugin for firefox, the built in one is pretty much the best but that lacks features.
SumatraPDF doesnt have page export.
Okular only can be downloaded on the windows store.
XChange editor looks super sketch, and since there's a buy option, I presume it's gonna be like "you've reached the limit of the daily pdf views" or "want to zoom in? pay only 9.99 a month to get EVERY feature"

TBH Vi is the best and there is no reason to use anything else. I just get a feeling you are a bit of a shill, but you are welcome to disagree with me. PDF just works and is supported by most systems and can be used by many programs to do stuff.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: coppice on August 25, 2023, 02:20:39 pm
99% of the world uses PDF for document distribution. Get over it. You can have the best djvu reader in the world, but that means nothing.
The most interesting aspect of this thread is it reminded me that djvu exists. I haven't seen a thing about it for years.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: TimFox on August 25, 2023, 03:26:08 pm
Coincidence: today's obituary
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/21/business/adobe-cofounder-john-warnock-death/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/21/business/adobe-cofounder-john-warnock-death/index.html)
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: mwb1100 on August 25, 2023, 04:59:50 pm
Firefox acts as a very nice PDF reader (probably other browsers too).  I also like STDU Viewer (http://www.stdutility.com/stduviewer.html), a free reader with a nice tabbed document interface, no nags.  The only shortcoming is that it crashes more often than I like (but infrequently enough that I still use it most of the time).  It's no longer developed/maintained so the crashes will never be addressed.

The tabbed doc UI is what made me move to it so many years ago.

STDU handles several other document formats (including djvu - so this post is actually on topic), but I don't know how well it handles them since I'm pretty much PDF-only.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: PlainName on August 25, 2023, 11:29:18 pm
STDU Viewer seemed nice on a quick look, but fails to open pdf files created on my Boox Note Air. Other clients open them, though.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 26, 2023, 12:57:58 am
99% of the world uses PDF for document distribution. Get over it. You can have the best djvu reader in the world, but that means nothing.
The most interesting aspect of this thread is it reminded me that djvu exists. I haven't seen a thing about it for years.

Finally someone understands the point I'm making.

DjVuViewer is an amazingly thought out program, and I just wish it was the same for pdf viewers, or other software.
I guess MediaInfo and Notepad++ I could also put on the "great software" list, but that's like putting bread on a list of great foods, its so simple it's hard to get it wrong.
With those 3, it's so intuitive, you shouldnt even bother writing up instructions how to use the programs. Meanwhile something like acrobat, audacity for that matter, or I guess foobar2000 has a lot worse UI, you don't just automatically understand how the program works. And that's my problem with other software.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: SiliconWizard on August 26, 2023, 03:58:16 am
djvu is awesome! main reason: WinDJView, software to read djvu files is incredible, it's the best
0 fuss, very intuitive UI, every thing you would want can be done in the settings.
Lightning fast zoom, no problems with it taking years to load a single page after you zoomed in like you often do with pdfs. You also get buttons to fit the page vertically or horizontally
All the modes like side-by-side are right there at the top, no need to go into a menu
"Back" button
Also a select tool, crop out a part and export it as high resolution png or whatever, Or zoom into it, Or highlight it, Or add a bookmark, Or copy it ofc.


And recently I was looking at a djvu file and I wanted to like screenshot the page, out of curiosity I right clicked, and guess what prompt there was... "Export page...", exporting the page in high resolution as a png or gif or jpeg, etc. There's also "page information" which shows details about what images are on the page in what resolution.

I mean you don't get anything like this with pdf's... too bad it's not very common to find djvu files.

Such a shame most software isn't thought out and user friendly like this is, the world would truly be a better place if everything was like that.
The problem isn't PDF, the problem is that you aren't using Linux. The Okular PDF reader (just to give 1 example out of many PDF readers available for Linux) can do all the things you mention.

Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.

It does have a feature that you can select and save, but not for the whole page.

I'm not sure I understood your point. Can you elaborate on what you want to achieve?
Do you mean you like to be able to save individual pages? (Like, say, saving one or a number of pages of a given PDF to a PDF file?)
In that case, no, it doesn't allow you to do this as far as I've looked.
But you can always use a virtual PDF printer to achieve the same result. So, yeah. Or use a PDF editor (not viewer), as doing this is more in the editing category.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: mwb1100 on August 26, 2023, 05:08:53 am
Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.

Thanks for this pointer!  Works great for me so far and it supports tabbed documents. For some reason I didn't think it did.

I might have found a reason to move on from STDU.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: SiliconWizard on August 26, 2023, 05:23:26 am
Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.

Thanks for this pointer!  Works great for me so far and it supports tabbed documents. For some reason I didn't think it did.

Yep, I knew Okular from Linux but only found out there was a working Windows build a few months ago. Before that I was mainly using PDF Xchange which was fine, but the more recent versions tended to be more and more bloated.
Okular also supports digital signatures, annotations. And, it can automatically reload an open PDF that has changed on disk - something that many other viewers do not support. That's pretty great when you are working on a document and want to see the PDF output. For instance when using LaTeX.

Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: Karel on August 26, 2023, 06:10:46 am
I guess MediaInfo and Notepad++ I could also put on the "great software" list, but that's like putting bread on a list of great foods, its so simple it's hard to get it wrong.

Regarding Notepad++, I prefer Kate:

https://kate-editor.org/ (https://kate-editor.org/)
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: mariush on August 26, 2023, 06:49:33 am
I'd rather have EPUB  instead of pdf or djvu but I'm aware of the limitations and differences.. pdf is design with printing in mind, with page sizes and all that, epub has limited support for that, it's meant to re-flow, scale with display size, to read books on whatever screen you have ...

EPUB is a simple zip file that contains xhtml and images and optional fonts and media. If you don't have a viewer, you can still open the zip and load the html file in a browser and read the text.

but it's much easier to decode compared to djvu's arithmetic coding and odd image compression algorithms  and pdf has so many extra things added.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: coppice on August 26, 2023, 04:39:07 pm
I guess MediaInfo and Notepad++ I could also put on the "great software" list, but that's like putting bread on a list of great foods, its so simple it's hard to get it wrong.
Huh? Have you seen notepad? You really think its hard to get something like that wrong? I know its from MS, where the key expertise is crappy software, but still. Most of the world's editors are extremely annoying. The scintilla editor behind notepad++ is pretty well thought out.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: SiliconWizard on August 26, 2023, 07:57:44 pm
I guess MediaInfo and Notepad++ I could also put on the "great software" list, but that's like putting bread on a list of great foods, its so simple it's hard to get it wrong.

Regarding Notepad++, I prefer Kate:

https://kate-editor.org/ (https://kate-editor.org/)

Yes it's pretty good. Also a KDE app like Okular.
I mostly use Geany, but otherwise Kate.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: themadhippy on August 26, 2023, 08:55:46 pm
Must admit one of the things i missed the most when jumping to linux was paint.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: rdl on August 26, 2023, 09:57:39 pm
I miss Paint Shop Pro. It's always GIMP you get with Linux, which is about 10x more complicated than I need.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: TimFox on August 26, 2023, 10:05:05 pm
Paint Shop is still with us;  current version from Corel is "Paint Shop Pro 2023 Ultimate"
https://www.paintshoppro.com/en/products/paintshop-pro/ultimate/?sourceid=psp2022-xx-ppc_brkws&x-vehicle=ppc_brkws&trial=big&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=psp-dd-all-adwordsppc&utm_content=132063878599&utm_term=paint%20shop%20pro%20ultimate&utm_id=1696212657&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI69Tsjar7gAMVeiezAB3xdwHVEAAYASABEgJSbPD_BwE (https://www.paintshoppro.com/en/products/paintshop-pro/ultimate/?sourceid=psp2022-xx-ppc_brkws&x-vehicle=ppc_brkws&trial=big&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=psp-dd-all-adwordsppc&utm_content=132063878599&utm_term=paint%20shop%20pro%20ultimate&utm_id=1696212657&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI69Tsjar7gAMVeiezAB3xdwHVEAAYASABEgJSbPD_BwE)
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 26, 2023, 10:40:00 pm
Must admit one of the things i missed the most when jumping to linux was paint.

paint.net you mean? MS paint has so little features it's almost useless to use it, other than drawing basic stuff. Less versatile than paper
I like paint.net but it doesnt have much of a feature set either, GIMP has a lot more useful features but the UI is bad... I think it's open source tho so you could just fix the UI problems.

Paint.net has ad-ons which help a bunch, but they aren't that good. for example I have 2 vignette addons, one of then you can change the color of the vignette, but not the "depth" of the vignette, while the other one you only have a black vignette. Because of this I usually Ctrl+X the image, add a layer, put a black vignette on it, then adjust the image color shift until I get the color I want, then paste the image back on the bottom layer.  ;D I can't complain since the time wasted is worth less than the laughs I get about how silly it is.
What bugs me the most tho is that 100% hardness isn't 100%... it's just dumb, the only way to have a 100% hard line is to use the pencil tool which is fixed at 1 pixel size. While in Gimp the pen options work as you'd expect.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: rsjsouza on August 26, 2023, 11:08:22 pm
I use SumatraPDF for the regular viewing and Foxit 9.2 for more advanced tasks: it does not have the bloating of latter versions and it is still pretty functional, with its very useful "PDF printer" that allows me to export single or multiple pages with no fuss.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: themadhippy on August 26, 2023, 11:47:17 pm
Quote
MS paint has so little features it's almost useless to use it, other than drawing basic stuff. Less versatile than paper
bog standard,as included since windows 2.0 ms paint,simple and great for a quick sketch  with the added advantage you can attach the image to a document without digging out your scanner.It was also handy  for removing the tags on digital camera pictures.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: PlainName on August 27, 2023, 04:52:15 am
I think it's open source tho so you could just fix the UI problems.

Indeed. Couple of hours and job's a good 'un.

And yet... no-one who has agreed the UI is crap has actually attempted that, never mind managed to do it. Perhaps none of them has realised it's open source and therefore a piece of cake to fix.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 27, 2023, 07:06:33 am
I think it's open source tho so you could just fix the UI problems.

Indeed. Couple of hours and job's a good 'un.

And yet... no-one who has agreed the UI is crap has actually attempted that, never mind managed to do it. Perhaps none of them has realised it's open source and therefore a piece of cake to fix.

Or maybe it's that they aren't willing to spend time improving a program that they don't like. it's sort of a thought paradox.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: Karel on August 27, 2023, 07:20:39 am
If you'r not condemned to use windows, there's also KolourPaint:

http://www.kolourpaint.org/about-product-comparison.html (http://www.kolourpaint.org/about-product-comparison.html)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KolourPaint?useskin=vector (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KolourPaint?useskin=vector)
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: MrMobodies on August 27, 2023, 11:13:07 pm
https://okular.kde.org/download/
Quote
Windows
The Microsoft Store is the recommended place to install Okular, the version there has been tested by our developers and the Microsoft Store  :bullshit: provides seamless updates when new versions are released. If for some strange reason you can't use the Microsoft Store you can try the stable version from release nightly build.  :-+ There are also experimental nightly builds, for which testing and bug reports would be welcome.
Windows 10 LTSC Enterprise 2019 does not have an appstore and I have no intentions of ever installing that rubbish.

Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.
Thank you.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 28, 2023, 02:24:50 am
https://okular.kde.org/download/
Quote
Windows
The Microsoft Store is the recommended place to install Okular, the version there has been tested by our developers and the Microsoft Store  :bullshit: provides seamless updates when new versions are released. If for some strange reason you can't use the Microsoft Store you can try the stable version from release nightly build.  :-+ There are also experimental nightly builds, for which testing and bug reports would be welcome.
Windows 10 LTSC Enterprise 2019 does not have an appstore and I have no intentions of ever installing that rubbish.

Okular is available on Windows (I think I already gave a link before, but they've changed things around a bit.)
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Okular_Release_win64/lastStableBuild/artifact/
Works plenty fine on Windows.
Thank you.

Windows 7 still works fine. aren't that many programs that don't support it, the only ones that don't have a specific check so that they dont install on windows 7. And you can just get older version for them that support it. just a very few selection of programs tho.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: Zoli on August 28, 2023, 06:22:26 am
I miss Paint Shop Pro. It's always GIMP you get with Linux, which is about 10x more complicated than I need.
I'm still using PSP7.04; I don't know any other program able to open a 40MB TIFF for edit under 1s...
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: PlainName on August 28, 2023, 07:51:38 am
I am sure this is a coincidence...

I downloaded Okular and ran the standalone under Sandboxie (which is what I normally do to avoid polluting my PC with stuff I may not like, but allowing it to work in a real environment). Seemed OK but Okular didn't seem to bring anything to my party, so removed it. However, via a circuitous route, I found out it could display markdown properly - most other markdown-aware things display it as raw weird stuff with the proper display as a separate 'preview', so this was attractive. Accordingly I then ran the installer version of Okular.

Didn't seem to work right and complained that it couldn't write to some file because of permissions, and then Bitdefender popped up and killed it. WTF! Long story short, my TheJournal executable was banished from my PC, Miranda and Waterfox lost their profiles and other bad things happened.

Seemed to be a registry delete-fest too. Fortunately, blasting back my C drive en bloc from an image sorted it all out, and again running the standalone Okular in a sandbox was fine. As was running the installer version in a VM.

Highly unlikely Okular downloaded from KDE is malware (which was the Bitdefender report), but in several years that's the first time Bitdefender has twisted its knickers so messily. I am putting it down to coincidence but thought it worth mentioning if it encourages people to ensure they have regular backups.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: Karel on August 28, 2023, 08:45:32 am
Anti-malware creates more problems than it resolves.
They are not effective, very unreliable, consume resources, slowdown your pc and can mess things up.
The biggest virus is the person in front of the pc...
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 28, 2023, 09:21:25 am
Anti-malware creates more problems than it resolves.
They are not effective, very unreliable, consume resources, slowdown your pc and can mess things up.
The biggest virus is the person in front of the pc...

I run windows 7 SP1 on my PC, I have uBlock Origin as an adblock on waterfox G5.0 (firefox 89 fork iirc, I don't update because they disabled the old minimalistic theme which looks way better on 1080p monitors)
In 5 years I've been running the same OS install I haven't gotten any malware, I have 0 anti-malware programs installed, I just periodically install a free version of malwarebytes and do a full scan (and every time it shows 0 malware detected)

I even keep downloading software that is 20 years old for reasons. maybe I'm just lucky but I can tell apart sketchy software like a sore thumb, after a while you can instantly notice it because most malware use the same style website for the download page.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: Karel on August 28, 2023, 10:50:20 am
In 5 years I've been running the same OS install I haven't gotten any malware, I have 0 anti-malware programs installed, I just periodically install a free version of malwarebytes and do a full scan (and every time it shows 0 malware detected)

I believe most windows pc's are infected in one way or another, we just don't know it:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/security/uefi-rootkits/msg4327426/#msg4327426 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/security/uefi-rootkits/msg4327426/#msg4327426)

Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: PlainName on August 28, 2023, 12:43:57 pm
Anti-malware creates more problems than it resolves.
They are not effective, very unreliable, consume resources, slowdown your pc and can mess things up.
The biggest virus is the person in front of the pc...

It's like seatbelts and crash helmets - pain in the arse and a drag, and if you're a careful drive you might think you don't really need them. But we are human and can unintentionally screw up in a major way. These things are intended to be the last change to deal with an issue after the human has failed to avert it.

Malware on computers is a real thing. I am careful and circumspect about what I allow on my PC and where I visit, and yet I've sometimes narrowly escaped being scammed or running dodgy shit. In fact, I have run dodgy shit but it was on my phone where there is no backstop.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 28, 2023, 12:48:03 pm
In 5 years I've been running the same OS install I haven't gotten any malware, I have 0 anti-malware programs installed, I just periodically install a free version of malwarebytes and do a full scan (and every time it shows 0 malware detected)

I believe most windows pc's are infected in one way or another, we just don't know it:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/security/uefi-rootkits/msg4327426/#msg4327426 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/security/uefi-rootkits/msg4327426/#msg4327426)

Yeah but you with your super secure super insanely good it's super easy to switch from windows - distro aren't safe from that either. How about the proprietary firmware that's installed on all intel cpu's since like 2009 and amd cpus since like 2014 iirc.
Or the rootkits in some brand of motherboard for a good while.
Or if you're on a laptop, those are filled with code running that you didn't ask for.
And if you have a huwawei laptop, why are you even talking about security??
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 28, 2023, 12:48:53 pm
Anti-malware creates more problems than it resolves.
They are not effective, very unreliable, consume resources, slowdown your pc and can mess things up.
The biggest virus is the person in front of the pc...

It's like seatbelts and crash helmets - pain in the arse and a drag, and if you're a careful drive you might think you don't really need them. But we are human and can unintentionally screw up in a major way. These things are intended to be the last change to deal with an issue after the human has failed to avert it.

Malware on computers is a real thing. I am careful and circumspect about what I allow on my PC and where I visit, and yet I've sometimes narrowly escaped being scammed or running dodgy shit. In fact, I have run dodgy shit but it was on my phone where there is no backstop.


Gamers dont wear seatbelts  ;D
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: PlainName on August 28, 2023, 01:17:00 pm
In 5 years I've been running the same OS install I haven't gotten any malware, I have 0 anti-malware programs installed, I just periodically install a free version of malwarebytes and do a full scan (and every time it shows 0 malware detected)

I believe most windows pc's are infected in one way or another, we just don't know it:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/security/uefi-rootkits/msg4327426/#msg4327426 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/security/uefi-rootkits/msg4327426/#msg4327426)

Yeah but you with your super secure super insanely good it's super easy to switch from windows - distro aren't safe from that either. How about the proprietary firmware that's installed on all intel cpu's since like 2009 and amd cpus since like 2014 iirc.
Or the rootkits in some brand of motherboard for a good while.
Or if you're on a laptop, those are filled with code running that you didn't ask for.
And if you have a huwawei laptop, why are you even talking about security??

Y'all are thinking way too clever. All it takes is one innocuous app that just takes a look around and deletes any data it finds. Doesn't matter if you never run as root - just the data it can find for you, as a humble user, would be bad news if it got deleted. Or, worse, corrupted so you don't notice until you next take a look at it.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: Karel on August 28, 2023, 01:40:47 pm
Another reason to not use a desktop OS that has big marketshare and thus is more interesting for malware to target.
I believe that approach is more effective in practice than the best and the greatest anti-malware protection software.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: PlainName on August 28, 2023, 02:35:18 pm
Pardon me for being blunt, but that's dumb. Things people like tend to be popular, so you're basically saying you'd rather pass up the good stuff so you can be ignored. There are good reasons to use something other than Windows, but "it has too much market share" isn't one of them.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 28, 2023, 03:19:53 pm
In 5 years I've been running the same OS install I haven't gotten any malware, I have 0 anti-malware programs installed, I just periodically install a free version of malwarebytes and do a full scan (and every time it shows 0 malware detected)

I believe most windows pc's are infected in one way or another, we just don't know it:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/security/uefi-rootkits/msg4327426/#msg4327426 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/security/uefi-rootkits/msg4327426/#msg4327426)

Yeah but you with your super secure super insanely good it's super easy to switch from windows - distro aren't safe from that either. How about the proprietary firmware that's installed on all intel cpu's since like 2009 and amd cpus since like 2014 iirc.
Or the rootkits in some brand of motherboard for a good while.
Or if you're on a laptop, those are filled with code running that you didn't ask for.
And if you have a huwawei laptop, why are you even talking about security??

Y'all are thinking way too clever. All it takes is one innocuous app that just takes a look around and deletes any data it finds. Doesn't matter if you never run as root - just the data it can find for you, as a humble user, would be bad news if it got deleted. Or, worse, corrupted so you don't notice until you next take a look at it.

the same group that tells everyone to make backups all the time backup backups more backups.
Also running an OS within an OS virtual machine.
Title: Re: djvu is better than pdf because the software doesnt suck!
Post by: ELS122 on August 29, 2023, 09:05:46 am
Who would ever willingly use linux? It's by far the worst user experience ever.
You install linux -> puke at the horrible GUI -> spend 5 hours going trough the *for some reason* super minimalized settings menus to make it at least barable -> then you open up firefox and find that the vertical page space is like 5 pixels because I guess nobody cares about screen space in the linux world -> install an older version of firefox with the photon theme to at least slightly save vertical space, trough console ofc -> it opens but it doesn't do anything... because of course -> spend hours trying to fix that, you don't -> start searching for userChrome alternatives to get back the photon theme -> then you realize it doesn't have a usable text editor

Meanwhile it has like 200 apps preinstalled that you will never use because they're horrid.

You cannot even create a file, you need to open up the f'in console to make any file.
The bootscreen ofc NEEDS to show every operation happening, because when you're switching from windows to linux, you're doing it because "it wasn't uselessly complicated enough, and I hated how windows was polished"
Would it hurt to add a setting for "show generic bootscreen loading bar instead of code rain"
Meanwhile the settings menu looks like a toy set for kids, super oweee glorified.

A 5 year old that watched the matrix too many times must've made all the linux distros.


MS DOS has better new user experience than any linux distro