Author Topic: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)  (Read 16665 times)

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Offline mcovingtonTopic starter

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Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« on: December 20, 2022, 03:52:19 am »
In my youth, "solder" was always pronounced "sodder" in the United States; "sole-der" in England.

I think I'm sometimes hearing Americans pronounce the L now, more often "sol-der" than "sole-der".  But I'm not sure.  I'm going by YouTube videos, mainly, and I'm not always sure where people are from.

What is your experience?  Is the pronunciation with L catching on in the USA?

BTW, I'm a linguist and have looked into the history of the word.  The "sodder" pronunciation is actually older.  The word is from French "souder," but the L was put into the spelling on the basis of the Latin etymology (related to "solid"), and eventually a lot of people started pronouncing the L.  This is very similar to what happened with "salmon" except that nobody pronounces the L in that one.
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2022, 03:55:39 am »
Please use the forum search feature for your answer.
This topic has been trashed to death in the past on a couple of occasions.
Where are we going, and why are we in a handbasket?
 

Offline mcovingtonTopic starter

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2022, 03:58:45 am »
OK, will do.  I am a linguist, and for me, this is an actual question -- I'm not spoiling for a fight about it.  I've been on both sides of the Atlantic and have pronounced the word both ways.
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2022, 04:00:37 am »
...I'm not spoiling for a fight about it...

Sorry, I perhaps misread your intention.
I will close the door on my way out...
Where are we going, and why are we in a handbasket?
 

Offline mcovingtonTopic starter

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2022, 04:02:31 am »
No problem.   The search feature immediately led me to some long brawls, but not actually the information I want -- which is to know whether a pronunciation with L is catching on in the USA.  I'm not asking what is wrong or right; I know the origins and history of both; I'm just wondering whether some Americans are using the L pronunciation now.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2022, 04:04:06 am »
I have never heard the "L" in solder pronounced in the US.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2022, 05:12:43 am »
I've never pronounced the L, I've heard people do it before but only people that didn't actually know what solder was.
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2022, 07:40:55 am »
Since I deal with US colleagues a lot on the job (but rarely discussing electronics), I am curious: In the common US pronounciation, is the 'L' suppressed in all forms of the word? E.g. would you say "soddering iron" too?
 

Online magic

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2022, 08:24:19 am »
Yes, to the point that RatShack guys took a few moments to understand what I'm talking about and then corrected me.
Maybe my English just sucks ;D
 
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Offline bitwelder

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2022, 09:46:16 am »
Do similar words like bolder, colder, folder get the same treatment?
 

Online magic

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2022, 10:05:28 am »
Logical consistency is not a concept which applies to English language in any of its dialects, or exists in America at all.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 10:09:55 am by magic »
 
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2022, 11:37:26 am »
I know the origins and history of both; I'm just wondering whether some Americans are using the L pronunciation now.

In the 2022 US election, over 150 million people legally voted, and not one pronounced the L in solder. 
 
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2022, 11:58:42 am »
As a native American English speaker, an electrical engineer, and someone who was once in a PhD linguistics program (specializing in phonology, no less): I pronounce "solder" as "sodder" and can't recall ever hearing any other Americans pronounce it with the "L".

America and the UK:  two great nations separated by a common language :)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 12:04:08 pm by pdenisowski »
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2022, 12:02:00 pm »
In the common US pronounciation, is the 'L' suppressed in all forms of the word? E.g. would you say "soddering iron" too?

Yes.  And even if it were spelled (spellt?) "Sottering iron" we would still pronounce it as "soddering iron" :)



[Americans tend to voice stops between vowels, so most Americans ... myself included ... pronounce "battery" as if were spelled "baddery"]
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2022, 12:38:11 pm »
I think most folks are not introspective enough to be aware of subtle changes in pronunciation.  I have shifted my pronunciation slightly over time, and currently have a faint, barely detectable hint of the ell sound before the d.  Retaining the soft o.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2022, 01:08:30 pm »
Before tooki chimes in, a quick tldr "in a nutshell", if I remember the earlier discussions right, American English [sodder] is closer to the French origin "souder", without the L sound. This is not surprising; American English has evolved different paths from British English, after it got "frozen" some hundreds of years ago. The idea that current British English is somehow more "original" than current American English, is logically weird.
 
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2022, 01:14:08 pm »
Oh no - not this again ...  :palm:
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2022, 02:25:35 pm »
American English [sodder] is closer to the French origin "souder", without the L sound. This is not surprising; American English has evolved different paths from British English, after it got "frozen" some hundreds of years ago. The idea that current British English is somehow more "original" than current American English, is logically weird.

An interesting note from the OED (Oxford English Dictionary), referenced by etymology.com:

The -l- typically is sounded in British English but not in American, according to OED, but Fowler wrote that solder without the "l" was "The only pronunciation I have ever heard, except from the half-educated to whom spelling is a final court of appeal ..." and was baffled by the OED's statement that it was American.


So one of the co-authors of the classic "Modern English Usage" says that as far back as the late 1800s, the "educated" pronunciation of "solder" in Britain did not include the "L" 

Again, speaking as someone who made a living (well, such that it was) for many years in languages / linguistics: the most likely explanation, and the one supported by Fowler, is that the "L" was added by people who looked at the spelling and decided that they should pronounce the "L".   

And from the OP's comment, it appears that this is happening again in the 21st century:  the "L-pronunciation" is being used because people are imitating what they hear a handful of YouTubers saying versus what the vast majority of professionals (whom they will never meet in person) typically say.
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Offline mcovingtonTopic starter

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2022, 02:41:27 pm »
Since I deal with US colleagues a lot on the job (but rarely discussing electronics), I am curious: In the common US pronounciation, is the 'L' suppressed in all forms of the word? E.g. would you say "soddering iron" too?

Yes.  That is the normal American pronunciation.

The only reason I asked my question was to inquire about whether the L pronunciation is starting to pop up in America.  Apparently so, and the obvious reason is spelling pronunciation (that is, people want to pronounce the word the way it is spelled) together with YouTube suddenly enabling us to hear the word pronounced by people from elsewhere (many of them outside the USA).   I did find one person on another forum for whom the L pronunciation had been normal, in Savannah, Georgia, since at least the 1970s.

The quote from Fowler (just above) is interesting.  We know that the L originally was *not* pronounced when this word came into English.  The history is:
(1) English borrows the French word 'souder' and pronounces it 'sodder'
(2) Spelling is changed to 'solder' on the basis of the Latin etymology (solidare)
(3) Pronunciation adds the L because of influence from the spelling.
Fowler must have observed British English before step (3) had run to completion over there.  Step (3) never took place in America -- or so I thought -- but it seems to be doing it now.
 
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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2022, 05:30:57 pm »
Since I deal with US colleagues a lot on the job (but rarely discussing electronics), I am curious: In the common US pronounciation, is the 'L' suppressed in all forms of the word? E.g. would you say "soddering iron" too?

  Yes,  and FWIW I've been using one for about 65 years now and all over the US and in Canada and a couple of other (non-European) countries and I have never heard it pronounced differently. Even the Brit from BA that I used to work with pronounced it "Sodder".

   "Sodder" Pot, "Sodder Paste", "Sodder Gun" and "Sodder" Sucker are four other common phrases and pronunciations.  Oh and add "wave Sodder machine" and "wave Sodder" (verb)  to the list.  We always spell it with an "L" but it's never pronounced.

    And I forgot "Silver Sodder" (both a noun and a verb).

   YMMV,
 

Online IanB

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2022, 05:42:52 pm »
I'm not sure if it is true in America, but in Britain, "sodder" sounds slightly rude or uncouth (sod is an expletive), so it may be that British people moved away from pronouncing it the American way out of a sense of decorum?
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2022, 05:52:25 pm »
"Sod" in American usage refers only to grassy lawns.
I assume the rude British usage is short for "sodomy".
 

Online IanB

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2022, 05:56:43 pm »
I haven't looked up the etymology, but that sounds likely.

It means a soddering iron would be akin to a buggering iron, which in the hands of the unskilled might not be too far from the truth  ;D
 
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Online Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2022, 06:21:59 pm »
Solder is from the Latin "solidus" mostly referring to a specific coin, or something "solid" or make something solid,  I won't discuss the verb
Don't know the Sanskrit equivalent at all, I stopped all Linguistics study at Medieval Latin
Here in the Midwest we speak "United States" not quite "English" ( not even "Canadian") let alone Latin.

Words change with use, an Elm tree used to be an Elem tree, a pronunciation that is used only in one small part of the US.
Goofy stuff, Language is.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2022, 06:23:29 pm »
(3) Pronunciation adds the L because of influence from the spelling.
Fowler must have observed British English before step (3) had run to completion over there.  Step (3) never took place in America -- or so I thought -- but it seems to be doing it now.
I really don’t think it is. A few YouTubers who pronounce it wrong are not evidence of widespread change in usage.

I mean, there’s another YouTuber who pronounces DOS (the old Microsoft operating system) as “dawz” despite getting flak about it in every video’s comments, but that doesn’t mean there’s a change in standard usage. (Which is “doss”, for anyone who doesn’t know how it’s pronounced in English.)

« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 06:26:53 pm by tooki »
 


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