General > General Technical Chat
Do *you* pronounce the L in SOLDER ? (In the USA?)
tooki:
--- Quote from: TimFox on December 21, 2022, 04:38:10 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on December 21, 2022, 09:45:57 am ---
--- Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 04:04:58 am ---
--- Quote from: TimFox on December 21, 2022, 03:28:05 am ---Even in American English, there is a pronunciation difference between "calm" and "cam".
--- End quote ---
That makes me think of the "Mary", "marry", "merry" convergence, and wonder if there is any part of America where calm and cam sound the same?
--- End quote ---
I don’t think so.
“Calm” vs “cahm” is one thing (presence or absence of L, but same vowel), while “cam” has a different vowel.
--- End quote ---
Alphabetical spelling is an encoding of pronunciation.
In the original Latin, this encoding was probably efficient (I am not fluent in Latin).
As the Latin alphabet spread to other languages, including non-Romance languages (Germanic, etc.), the encoding became less consistent.
"Calm" vs "cam" is an example of a silent letter used in this encoding to differentiate between two different sounds, neither of which includes the "L" consonant.
--- End quote ---
Alphabetic spelling is an encoding of what we think the pronunciation is, not what it actually is (or ever was). In linguistics, these conceptual speech sounds are called “phonemes”. But in actuality, many phonemes have multiple “allophones”, which are the actual speech sounds created, after application of the pronunciation rules of the language. (For example, English has two different “k” sounds (allophones), but because they occur in mutually exclusive situations, we mentally collapse them down to a single “k” phoneme.)
Alphabetic spelling is based on phonemes at most, so they are not complete guides to pronunciation even in languages often considered to have highly regular spelling, like German.
Anywho, in your original comment about calm, what do you mean by “cam”, then: the things camshafts have multiple of, or the word “calm” with a silent L?
Because the issue is that there are THREE pronunciations to deal with:
Calm with L pronounced
Calm with silent L
Cam
tooki:
--- Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 05:24:09 pm ---
--- Quote from: pdenisowski on December 21, 2022, 10:46:23 am ---I've lived in the Carolinas almost my entire life and if anything, I would say the difference between "calm" and "cam" is even greater here than in other parts of the United States (due to the "twang", i.e. nasalization, in "cam")
--- End quote ---
Oh. I'm used hearing Dan pronounced as "Day'en". Are you saying cam would be pronounced like "cay'em"? I suppose that would be right.
--- End quote ---
Yep. (I lived in NC for 7 years, so I’m well acquainted with their dialects, though my own English made it through largely unscathed! :p)
I remember in third grade, in a spelling test, the teacher spoke the word — “pee’un” — and then realized her own speech has the “pin-pen merger” and blurted out “that’s ‘pee’un’ p-e-n, not ‘pee’un’ p-i-n”, followed a moment later by a facepalm. :P
TimFox:
--- Quote from: tooki on December 21, 2022, 05:43:28 pm ---
--- Quote from: TimFox on December 21, 2022, 04:38:10 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on December 21, 2022, 09:45:57 am ---
--- Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 04:04:58 am ---
--- Quote from: TimFox on December 21, 2022, 03:28:05 am ---Even in American English, there is a pronunciation difference between "calm" and "cam".
--- End quote ---
That makes me think of the "Mary", "marry", "merry" convergence, and wonder if there is any part of America where calm and cam sound the same?
--- End quote ---
I don’t think so.
“Calm” vs “cahm” is one thing (presence or absence of L, but same vowel), while “cam” has a different vowel.
--- End quote ---
Alphabetical spelling is an encoding of pronunciation.
In the original Latin, this encoding was probably efficient (I am not fluent in Latin).
As the Latin alphabet spread to other languages, including non-Romance languages (Germanic, etc.), the encoding became less consistent.
"Calm" vs "cam" is an example of a silent letter used in this encoding to differentiate between two different sounds, neither of which includes the "L" consonant.
--- End quote ---
Alphabetic spelling is an encoding of what we think the pronunciation is, not what it actually is (or ever was). In linguistics, these conceptual speech sounds are called “phonemes”. But in actuality, many phonemes have multiple “allophones”, which are the actual speech sounds created, after application of the pronunciation rules of the language. (For example, English has two different “k” sounds (allophones), but because they occur in mutually exclusive situations, we mentally collapse them down to a single “k” phoneme.)
Alphabetic spelling is based on phonemes at most, so they are not complete guides to pronunciation even in languages often considered to have highly regular spelling, like German.
Anywho, in your original comment about calm, what do you mean by “cam”, then: the things camshafts have multiple of, or the word “calm” with a silent L?
Because the issue is that there are THREE pronunciations to deal with:
Calm with L pronounced
Calm with silent L
Cam
--- End quote ---
I was just commenting on how normal English spelling employs the silent "L" to distinguish between the words "calm" (as in absence of wind) and "cam" (as in camshaft).
Spelling is a code, and is not an efficient coding for phonemes.
For that, you need to use the various "phonetic alphabets", as used in dictionaries to describe pronunciation accurately.
Sal Ammoniac:
--- Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 01:01:52 am ---Ever since ARM was first founded in the UK I've heard it pronounced "arm". I have never heard anyone say "A.R.M.". Make of that what you will.
--- End quote ---
I've worked at companies that either use or produce ARM parts for twenty years and I've never heard anyone call it "A.R.M." -- always "arm".
SiliconWizard:
--- Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on December 21, 2022, 07:37:58 pm ---
--- Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2022, 01:01:52 am ---Ever since ARM was first founded in the UK I've heard it pronounced "arm". I have never heard anyone say "A.R.M.". Make of that what you will.
--- End quote ---
I've worked at companies that either use or produce ARM parts for twenty years and I've never heard anyone call it "A.R.M." -- always "arm".
--- End quote ---
The thread was all about how words are pronounced in various parts of the world, if you noticed. So you'll be surprised how some words can be prounounced differently in different parts of the world, they already are within the same country. All the more for acronyms. In some languages, it is even unusual to pronounce acronyms as nouns. The world is a big place.
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