Poll

Do you still use leaded solder?

Yes, and wont leave it.
105 (78.4%)
Yes, but planning to switch.
9 (6.7%)
No, but hate lead free.
4 (3%)
Using lead free without any issues.
16 (11.9%)

Total Members Voted: 131

Author Topic: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...  (Read 14753 times)

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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2021, 06:00:19 pm »
Yes, the EU nannies won't let dealers sell leaded solder to private person any more. I stocked up on a lifetime supply before that happened.
But you can find it on Ali & Evilbay.

Yes. I have good stock too so it should last a lifetime as well. ;)

It's interesting to see that dealers wouldn't be allowed to sell leaded solder to private individuals anymore, while the latter are still allowed to use it for prototyping? (Or are they not anymore? But I don't think so?)
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2021, 06:07:11 pm »
I have a skeptical response to the abolition of leaded solder, since I worked on large x-ray systems that literally contained a ton of lead shielding, along with SMT PCBs for the imaging electronics that contained less than 1 kg of lead in the solder (large detector arrays).
One client asked us if there were any substitute for the lead shielding, and the only ones available were tungsten (quite expensive) and gold (very expensive).
For medical equipment, one vendor sold a lovely tungsten-loaded polymer shielding material that could be injection molded and was safe for human contact, also quite expensive.
 

Offline ataradov

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2021, 06:11:08 pm »
It's interesting to see that dealers wouldn't be allowed to sell leaded solder to private individuals anymore, while the latter are still allowed to use it for prototyping? (Or are they not anymore? But I don't think so?)

This is like in California you can't buy acrylic cement for hobby/personal use. But if you say that it is for work, then it all of a sudden becomes ok. This transaction is obviously easy when you are in buying person, but I assume suppliers will adapt and have a checkbox of some sort.

And as usual, China will sell you whatever you want without asking too many questions.
Alex
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2021, 06:11:36 pm »
There are still exemptions, such as implanted medical devices, aerospace, and stuff like that...
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2021, 06:13:22 pm »
As I remember, one of the first exceptions granted was for cardiac pacemakers (which obviously require high reliability), despite the fact that the lead is implanted inside the patient's body.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2021, 06:13:32 pm »
It's interesting to see that dealers wouldn't be allowed to sell leaded solder to private individuals anymore, while the latter are still allowed to use it for prototyping? (Or are they not anymore? But I don't think so?)

This is like in California you can't buy acrylic cement for hobby/personal use. But if you say that it is for work, then it all of a sudden becomes ok. This transaction is obviously easy when you are in buying person, but I assume suppliers will adapt and have a checkbox of some sort.

Not meaning to trigger flamewars, but it looks like California is a bit like the EU of the USA. :P

And as usual, China will sell you whatever you want without asking too many questions.

Yep. Might not pass customs... although it's still pretty rare.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2021, 06:15:15 pm »
As I remember, one of the first exceptions granted was for cardiac pacemakers (which obviously require high reliability), despite the fact that the lead is implanted inside the patient's body.

Mainly for reliability reasons indeed. The leaded parts are never in contact with the body, and the implants themselves are not supposed to open up or leak. (If that ever happens, the main concern for the patient is rarely going to be the lead.)

Tin whiskers anyone?
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2021, 06:24:09 pm »
I've been using lead-free solder for personal projects for, oh, 20 years now, with no complaints or issues. Day jobs since forever have been lead free, too, for obvious reasons.

This is everything from soldering boards with SMT devices to building audio cables.

Seriously, i think those of you railing against lead-free solder are just complaining about "The Gubbmint won't let me do something I want to do waaaah waaaahh complain complain bitch moan."
 
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Offline MiyukiTopic starter

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2021, 07:24:40 pm »
And as usual, China will sell you whatever you want without asking too many questions.
Yes in china you can blow asbestos dust with a Freon ("Good" old R-12 Dichlorodifluoromethane) they are on the other extreme

Been using SN100C for at least a decade. I much prefer it to leaded stuff. If low temp is needed, just use a bismuth alloy.
This looks like an interesting alternative to try
Just read quality vary significantly between manufacturers  :-//
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 07:27:48 pm by Miyuki »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2021, 07:41:02 pm »
Has anyone in Europe tried ordering leaded solder from Digi-Key or Mouser? They do not appear to restrict sales of leaded solder to individuals, but I have yet to try. (I got several rolls of leaded Tamura-Elsold and Stannol solder from work, so I’m set for quite some time now…)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2021, 07:43:33 pm »
I've been using lead-free solder for personal projects for, oh, 20 years now, with no complaints or issues. Day jobs since forever have been lead free, too, for obvious reasons.

This is everything from soldering boards with SMT devices to building audio cables.

Seriously, i think those of you railing against lead-free solder are just complaining about "The Gubbmint won't let me do something I want to do waaaah waaaahh complain complain bitch moan."
That, or they were dealing with early alloys that maybe weren’t as good, with equipment not quite up to the task. Then they never looked at it again, even though it’s been tweaked a ton.

Tin whiskers anyone?
Those certainly haven’t proven to be the widespread calamity predicted 20 years ago.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2021, 08:19:20 pm »
I have a skeptical response to the abolition of leaded solder, since I worked on large x-ray systems that literally contained a ton of lead shielding, along with SMT PCBs for the imaging electronics that contained less than 1 kg of lead in the solder (large detector arrays).
One client asked us if there were any substitute for the lead shielding, and the only ones available were tungsten (quite expensive) and gold (very expensive).
For medical equipment, one vendor sold a lovely tungsten-loaded polymer shielding material that could be injection molded and was safe for human contact, also quite expensive.

It is about lead-containing electronics going to landfills w/o proper recycling. Hopefully X-ray machines are not just dumped but recycled instead, so supposedly no problem with lead in them.
 

Offline jeremy

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2021, 08:23:56 pm »
Been using SN100C for at least a decade. I much prefer it to leaded stuff. If low temp is needed, just use a bismuth alloy.
This looks like an interesting alternative to try
Just read quality vary significantly between manufacturers  :-//

I use Nihon Superior for SN100C, and Chipquik for bismuth alloys. I am very happy with both.
 
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Offline MiyukiTopic starter

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2021, 08:33:29 pm »
It is about lead-containing electronics going to landfills w/o proper recycling. Hopefully X-ray machines are not just dumped but recycled instead, so supposedly no problem with lead in them.
It was not that long when it was common for electronics to end in the landfills and just anywhere
Today with dedicated bins for electronics and every shop compulsory to take it back not a big issue and you do not see much thrown away in woods and rivers
Even when recycling is done mostly in third world countries in terrible conditions and poisons the people and environment
 
 

Offline MiyukiTopic starter

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2021, 08:41:08 pm »
Been using SN100C for at least a decade. I much prefer it to leaded stuff. If low temp is needed, just use a bismuth alloy.
This looks like an interesting alternative to try
Just read quality vary significantly between manufacturers  :-//

I use Nihon Superior for SN100C, and Chipquik for bismuth alloys. I am very happy with both.
Someone here on the forum said STANNOL one is terrible

I think that is a big issue as you do not see a huge difference between brands in SnPb stuff
People might just buy some nasty stuff from even reasonably looking brand  :-//
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2021, 09:41:17 pm »
I am probably responsible for all of this, since I'm from Sweden. But, seriously. Lead is poisonous. I've had, as many mixed success with lead-free products; I have a Stannol lead-free roll I avoid using, because it is not very helpful. With good temperature control, it is quite OK, though.

For repair of old gear, lead is of course quite necessary. I have a bunch of rolls leaded, but I restrict use of it to old stuff, to make it last and to minimise exposure and contamination.

New builds are lead-free through and through, regardless of what I'm doing. I've, through other members here, found that Balver Zinn unleaded is extremely good, and a bunch of us managed to score a group buy. It feels like the old days.

I've also stopped using Freon, Asbestos, and DDT. Quit smoking. I do drink, though. There are limits. But I can, OTOH, keep drinking for longer now that I've optimised wear and tear on myself.  :-DD

Edit: What Bassman wrote. 10 times over.

Offline ejeffrey

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2021, 10:11:00 pm »
They should ban the sell of leaded bullets as well!!!

The exclamation points make this sound sarcastic.
I'm not sure how you meant but they absolutely should. Lead bullets are a serous environmental problem since they are deliberately shot into the environment when used for hunting or often at outdoor target ranges. Lead bullets have already been banned for hunting in some cases in the US and the US military is phasing out lead from at least their most common ammunition types.  No idea how far along that is, I think it's been in progress for a decade.
It is a reasonable ban for shotguns, as most of the shots do not end in the game but in the environment and it is a big issue
For other uses, I do not see many concerns
And military ammo is mainly steel anyway (and always was for penetration reasons) and after a war, is that little remaining lead from bullets the least problem. In any bigger conflict will be used plenty of really nasty stuff to kill each other and lead is compared to it just a children's toy.

No, most military small arms ammo is/was some form of jacketed lead.  Might be steel, might be copper alloy, might be copper clad steel jacketing.  Lead free versions have only recently become common.  And the concern isn't necessarily about the rounds fired in war although those currently living in Vietnam or Korea might see it differently, but the far, far greater number used in practice and training.  Lead (from both ammunition and paint) is one of many contaminants affecting large numbers of army bases.  Lead ammunition contaminates the soil and water of the bases affecting everyone there, and shooting ranges both indoor and outdoor generate significant amounts of airborne lead dust resulting in people who regularly using them having significantly elevated lead in their bloodstream.  It's funny (i..e, not funny) you should call it a "children's toy" since one of the biggest concerns is that kids growing up in the military are exposed to lead (and a bunch of other toxic chemicals -- military bases have a lot of hazards)) at rates far higher than others.

I know everyone here wants to believe that lead is no big deal because leaded solder works much better, but it is really bad and eliminating it wherever possible is a good idea.  No, the dozen or so pounds of lead solder a hobbyist might use in their lifetime won't cause any major problems if they use good practices but lead in commercially produced electronics, like lead in gasoline and lead in bullets is an environmental problem that we don't need.
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2021, 07:48:09 am »
One client asked us if there were any substitute for the lead shielding, and the only ones available were tungsten (quite expensive) and gold (very expensive).
Suggest to them another entirely unfashionable shielding material, pure cadmium. Lead seems like the happy option! ... cobalt is another alongside tungsten, practical but expensive.
 

Offline penfold

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2021, 08:39:14 am »
Seriously, i think those of you railing against lead-free solder are just complaining about [...]
That, or they were dealing with early alloys that maybe weren’t as good, with equipment not quite up to the task. Then they never looked at it again, even though it’s been tweaked a ton.

That reason. I'll admit I'm totally behind the curve, I had some awful experiences of it 10-15 years ago, since then 90% of my professional soldering needs have only been only on proto's that'll never be part of any production gear, the few minor mods I've done with lead-free on production stuff just haven't made me want to totally ditch lead. I'll be making the switch soon though with some more-commercial/mainstream clients coming through the door.

Tin whiskers though! Whilst not a problem as an entity, the fearmongering! For some long service life defence stuff (so long spares storage also) you can easily end up with 25mm courtyards around some components! All it took was one person raising their arm in one relatively innocuous meeting and saying "oh, but what tin whiskers" and... I'll avoid ranting.
 

Offline MiyukiTopic starter

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2021, 08:50:40 am »
No, most military small arms ammo is/was some form of jacketed lead.  Might be steel, might be copper alloy, might be copper clad steel jacketing.  Lead free versions have only recently become common.  And the concern isn't necessarily about the rounds fired in war although those currently living in Vietnam or Korea might see it differently, but the far, far greater number used in practice and training.  Lead (from both ammunition and paint) is one of many contaminants affecting large numbers of army bases.  Lead ammunition contaminates the soil and water of the bases affecting everyone there, and shooting ranges both indoor and outdoor generate significant amounts of airborne lead dust resulting in people who regularly using them having significantly elevated lead in their bloodstream.  It's funny (i..e, not funny) you should call it a "children's toy" since one of the biggest concerns is that kids growing up in the military are exposed to lead (and a bunch of other toxic chemicals -- military bases have a lot of hazards)) at rates far higher than others.

I know everyone here wants to believe that lead is no big deal because leaded solder works much better, but it is really bad and eliminating it wherever possible is a good idea.  No, the dozen or so pounds of lead solder a hobbyist might use in their lifetime won't cause any major problems if they use good practices but lead in commercially produced electronics, like lead in gasoline and lead in bullets is an environmental problem that we don't need.
I'm not a military expert, but I expected it is the same in the "western part of the world" because "easter style ammo" from 7.62 family, pistol and riffles are mainly steel with a small portion of the lead to hold steel rod in the jacket (more like a solder)

BTW interesting fact most soviet era electronics (even consumer) use probably something like Pb70 solder, it was really annoying to desolder if you want to scavenge some part from an old board

I support more environmentally friendly alternatives, and lead-free solder on a big scale works well. But when I cannot buy good lead-free solder in small quantities and then even simple leaded one it sucks
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2021, 07:07:55 pm »
I know everyone here wants to believe that lead is no big deal because leaded solder works much better, but it is really bad and eliminating it wherever possible is a good idea.  No, the dozen or so pounds of lead solder a hobbyist might use in their lifetime won't cause any major problems if they use good practices but lead in commercially produced electronics, like lead in gasoline and lead in bullets is an environmental problem that we don't need.

Lead in gasoline is the 800 lb gorilla. TEL is *really* nasty stuff, and it was used in vast quantities, causing lead contamination across virtually all corners of the globe. It's still used in avgas for piston engines, for some reason they apparently use more of it than most engines need. I've heard pilots complaining about lead fowling of spark plugs, I don't know the whole story there, I'm sure some engines must need that much.
 
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Offline MiyukiTopic starter

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2021, 08:15:13 pm »
I know everyone here wants to believe that lead is no big deal because leaded solder works much better, but it is really bad and eliminating it wherever possible is a good idea.  No, the dozen or so pounds of lead solder a hobbyist might use in their lifetime won't cause any major problems if they use good practices but lead in commercially produced electronics, like lead in gasoline and lead in bullets is an environmental problem that we don't need.

Lead in gasoline is the 800 lb gorilla. TEL is *really* nasty stuff, and it was used in vast quantities, causing lead contamination across virtually all corners of the globe. It's still used in avgas for piston engines, for some reason they apparently use more of it than most engines need. I've heard pilots complaining about lead fowling of spark plugs, I don't know the whole story there, I'm sure some engines must need that much.
Most planes and engines in them are many decades old
Piston engines developed in this millennia are designed to unleaded avgas
But it started to experiment with it in the late 90s and is available later. It looks it is not easy to make unleaded fuel to work in extreme temperature ranges.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2021, 10:47:30 pm »
A lot of it is just a feeling of entitlement to have nothing changed. They won't take anyone's word for it that an alternative can work, they don't want it period.

The problem is not creating the alternative, the problem is the lack of political will to put a gun to their heads.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2021, 11:34:36 pm »
The problem is not creating the alternative, the problem is the lack of political will to put a gun to their heads.

I call a politician who puts a gun to my head to force me to do something a tyrant.
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Do you still use leaded solder? I was today refused to buy it ...
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2021, 11:44:35 pm »
Try not paying your taxes ;)
 


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