Do you touch type?

[rstofer]

I can type pretty well on a mechanical (buckling spring) keyboard like the Unicomps or the original PC-AT keyboard.  Laptop keyboards?  Pretty awful...  https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB4041A

I failed typing the first time around. I passed it when I had to do it over in summer school.

And then I got drafted!  There was a war going on in the mid-60s,  You might have read about it, it was in all the papers.  It's a long story but the Cliff Notes go like this:  The company First Sergeant noticed that I was typing the daily menu in the mess hall.  A couple of weeks later two of us, out of about 250, got orders for Germany.  I don't know where the others went but I can guess.

I wound up with a job typing movement orders for 300 trucks and 1000 trailers (not all in motion every day) and no other duties.  6 PM until about 9 PM, 6 nights a week - the rest of the time was mine!  Come and go, do what I want - a really great assignment.  Plus the VA helped put me through college and finance a few homes - not a bad deal for a 2 year tour.

There's a strong possibility that knowing how to type accurately saved my life!  Three years later I was keypunching FORTRAN, the Army thing left behind.  I typed lots of FORTRAN! I can still type pretty well but not on a laptop keyboard.

[IanB]

But check these out: one is the split on-screen keyboard on my tablet, and the other is a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard.

That Microsoft keyboard is weird.

It has some features of the UK layout (double-height Enter key, backslash moved to the bottom row, double-quote above the 2), but it also has many features of the US layout (parentheses above 9 and 0 instead of above 8 and 9, many other non-alphanumeric characters in the US key positions).

It's not for me. Keyboard layouts are standardized for a reason, so that finger memory works.

[Zero999]

I didn't learn to touch type. It just happened naturally. I don't understand why anyone consciously learns to touch type. I just assume it's something most will end up doing, given enough practice.

I do find it frustrating, when I'm forced to use a slightly different keyboard, such as a laptop, because even subtle differences between the key spacing messes me up. I'm not the fastest or most accurate typist. but it's adequate for the work I do.

I struggle a lot with my spelling. I often it takes me a long time to find the correct spelling for a word, using Google search or a spellchecker. Unfortunately I can't use a microphone because it's prohibited where I work for security reasons.

[PlainName]

100+ wpm aren't important for tasks like programming, since you're not thinking at that speed. Besides, in that specific discipline it's the amount of code that you don't write which is really a mark of your mastery.

The possible zggtt response to that is that you shouldn't be thinking in that way when typing in the code. All such thought would have been done in producing the design: the documentation, charts, etc. The programming should be just copying all that into text.

Back in reality... 

[tom66]

100+ wpm aren't important for tasks like programming, since you're not thinking at that speed. Besides, in that specific discipline it's the amount of code that you don't write which is really a mark of your mastery.

The possible zggtt response to that is that you shouldn't be thinking in that way when typing in the code. All such thought would have been done in producing the design: the documentation, charts, etc. The programming should be just copying all that into text.

Back in reality... 

Well, on a slightly related topic I've been using Github Copilot more to help me refactor and write SystemVerilog code and there WPM definitely does not matter any more.  It does excellent code completion.  I used to do a lot of repetitive tasks such as changing port names and now I can describe the operation in natural language, do something in the background, and it creates a diff for me to review.   Like all AI products, you have to be careful with its output: it can easily produce bullshit and errors.  But, typos happen when you're typing fast too.  Provided your reviewing and prompting is thorough, you might not type that much at all for some changes.

[SteveThackery]

However, it's become almost irrelevant over time.

I disagree. As I said earlier, it was a massive help at university for turning out dissertations and such, and a massive help at work for turning out numerous reports.

If I were an author, or a columnist, or a technical author, or basically anyone who produced written copy, it would be an enormous help.

[Analog Kid]

What I want to know is how the 2-thumbers on a phone manage such a high speed. If there were a course for that I might well take it 

Speaking of "typing" on 'phones, do you know about "swiping"?
After my friend taught me how to do that about 10 years ago I no longer try to "type" on my phone's "keyboard".
So much faster!

[tom66]

What I want to know is how the 2-thumbers on a phone manage such a high speed. If there were a course for that I might well take it 

Speaking of "typing" on 'phones, do you know about "swiping"?
After my friend taught me how to do that about 10 years ago I no longer try to "type" on my phone's "keyboard".
So much faster!

Swiping is great, and the good keyboards (like the iOS one) learn from your gestures.  I can probably "swipe" words as fast on my phone keyboard as I can type on a real keyboard, although error rate is a bit higher. Correcting swipe errors can be more painful, though: the instinct is to swipe the pattern again, but it's more likely than not to read that swipe wrong again... so better to go back and type that word, and then start swiping again. 

[brucehoult]

However, it's become almost irrelevant over time.

I disagree. As I said earlier, it was a massive help at university for turning out dissertations and such, and a massive help at work for turning out numerous reports.

If I were an author, or a columnist, or a technical author, or basically anyone who produced written copy, it would be an enormous help.

Earlier in this thread you reported an absolute limit of 60 WPM for yourself, but an average sustained for hours of 16.7 WPM.

A number of us have shown results from a typing site of somewhere in the 40s WPM, in a 1 minute test, self-taught.

Maybe you're genuinely a bit faster, but it seems to me being in the 40s is Good Enough, not worth effort improving, especially given a much lower average speed needed.

[IanB]

However, it's become almost irrelevant over time.

I disagree. As I said earlier, it was a massive help at university for turning out dissertations and such, and a massive help at work for turning out numerous reports.

If I were an author, or a columnist, or a technical author, or basically anyone who produced written copy, it would be an enormous help.

Earlier in this thread you reported an absolute limit of 60 WPM for yourself, but an average sustained for hours of 16.7 WPM.

A number of us have shown results from a typing site of somewhere in the 40s WPM, in a 1 minute test, self-taught.

Maybe you're genuinely a bit faster, but it seems to me being in the 40s is Good Enough, not worth effort improving, especially given a much lower average speed needed.

I don't like time trials very much myself, but I had a quick look at that test, and even fumbling and going slowly, I got 60 wpm first try, with many hesitations and pauses along the way.

But the key thing is to have natural interaction with a keyboard without feeling frustrated or impeded. I do remember the first time I tried to use a computer when I was 16 or so, and I hated how it seemed like an eternity to type just one line of code. Typing in a 100 line program from a magazine was a nightmare.

More interestingly, simple typing is going to become less relevant. For one thing, you have voice dictation, which can write as fast as you can speak. Furthermore, we now have AI tools that can write whole pages of code in an instant, with just a few basic instructions. Check out "vibe coding".

So really, plain ordinary typing is going to become as obsolete as rotary dial telephones.

What I find amusing is the number of youngsters that use only phones to interact with the internet, on devices with tiny screens and lack of keyboards. I wonder what will happen to them when they reach their 40's, and find they cannot read such tiny screens anymore?

[PlainName]

What I want to know is how the 2-thumbers on a phone manage such a high speed. If there were a course for that I might well take it 

Speaking of "typing" on 'phones, do you know about "swiping"?
After my friend taught me how to do that about 10 years ago I no longer try to "type" on my phone's "keyboard".
So much faster!

Yes, and I actually purchased a couple of apps to do that before Google had its keyboard do it. But I found it didn't speed things up much and would produce worse errors if your finger got a bit lazy. Maybe I'm just not made for that style.

[PlainName]

I do remember the first time I tried to use a computer when I was 16 or so, and I hated how it seemed like an eternity to type just one line of code. Typing in a 100 line program from a magazine was a nightmare.

Got hooked on programming on a ZX81 and all subsequent devices have had to have two features: a proper keyboard and a plain text editor.

[gbaddeley]

I learned to touch type on a mechanical typewriter in the 1970’s when I was 15. Now I can still quickly type prosaic text on a computer keyboard. Program code has a lot of non alphanumeric characters, so typing rate is a bit slower, though it’s true to say that I spend much more time thinking about code design than typing it in. Also knowing that code is likely to be refactored at some stage means that fast touch typing speed is less of an asset these days. I’ve seen two thumb typing on an iPhone pop-up keyboard that is equally impressive as touch typing.

[PlainName]

My approach of the last couple of years, and one which has worked well for me, is to 'cheat'. By which I mean, adapt the keyboard itself to minimise finger and wrist movement over the keyboard for the character set that I use most frequently.

I've considered similar a couple of times, but I figured it would tie me to a specific keyboard and everything else would feel foreign. Mind, that's almost happened by settling on an ISO layout!

I bought an Ergodox EZ keyboard, and changed the key functionality to suit my particular preferred workflow and methods, which are then quite removed from 'real' touch typing on a Qwerty layout.

Interesting! That wouldn't be for me, not just because of the aforementioned uniqueness issue but also because it looks like it takes up too much space. And separate space too - you can't just shift it to the left a bit to make room for something but have to shift two things. But I can see it would be cool if you can be invested in it.

My solution was to settle on a layout I could live with and then make sure everything can be replaced. The key switches are generic ones easily replaced, and the keycaps are similarly generic sculptured ones. I actually use two brands which are slightly different, so certain keys stand slightly proud of the rest, easing location when not looking. But nothing too off piste, so having to use some other keyboard won't put me off my stride (unless it's a laptop or similar flat and barely any movement type).

[paulca]

If you consider that typing, especially on a keyboard rather than typewriter is a relatively 'novel' activity only really born in the 60s?  Then we of middle age and above are the first cohort in human history to 'age' with that skill.

My typing has always suffered from "out of ordering" in various levels.  Things like typing "teh" instead of "the".  I called this "Typlexia" and ignored it.  Other 'adhd' like corruptions happens as I am thinking several words ahead and occasionally part of the future word ends up in the middle or in place of a "currently being typed word".

EG:  I was typing "Year, month, day", earlier and ended up typing "Year, Monday, day".  It's a classic race condition in a parallel pre-emptyive mind.

The thing is....  it's getting slowly worse.  Not at worrying levels, but at 51, it would be a damn shame to be experiencing cognitive decline.

I have physical issues with wrists, fingers and neck associated with typing and VDU usage.  My GP said, "The lads building the roads don't feel it in the 20s either, but they do in their 50s and 60s.  It's just your version of occupational hazard".

If you are still young in your 20s/30s... pay attention to those "How to sit", "Stretch often", "get up and wander for 2 minutes often", "Try a standing desk".... leaflets and "Health and safety" speeches they give you.  At least avoid the obvious things like "holding your head with your hand on your chin, face planted in the monitor stationary for an hour straight at a time, 14 hours a day." - this is what badly mangled my neck.  Though I have 'fixed' the worst of that.

[tooki]

Dunno what "ANSI layout" is: QWERTY? Dvorak?

ANSI refers to the physical keyboard layout (i.e. the positions and sizes of the keys, regardless of what is printed on them), whereas Dvorak, German, Swiss, British etc. refer to the logical layout, i.e. the mapping between a physical key and the character/function it produces. (QWERTY is just a “family” of logical layouts that share that first line of letter keys.)

There are three main physical layouts used worldwide:
1. ANSI (long left shift key, horizontal return key)
2. ISO (short left shift key, vertical return key)
3. JIS (long left shift key, vertical return key, plus the space bar shortened to make room for extra modifier keys)

Fundamentally, any logical layout can be assigned to any physical layout, though potentially with limitations.

[tooki]

Do you touch type?

I learned to touch-type by accident, if you will.

I never successfully formally sat down and learned to touch-type. I started, but never practiced enough to actually stop hunt-and-pecking.

Then in late 1996, ICQ (an early instant messaging platform) came out, and I was using it to chat with friends overseas, since transatlantic phone calls were prohibitively expensive. And from that time-sensitive, ongoing typing practice, my hunt-and-peck typing actually morphed into touch-typing as I started using more fingers.

To this day, my typing isn’t “correct” touch-typing, in that I don’t follow home-row discipline, nor do I use my pinkies as full-fledged data-entry fingers, though I do use them for modifier keys.

[SteveThackery]

Earlier in this thread you reported an absolute limit of 60 WPM for yourself, but an average sustained for hours of 16.7 WPM.

I'm sorry for not explaining myself properly. The 1000 words per hour figure includes all the necessary thinking time - ie composing what I am going to write. I shouldn't have introduced that, in retrospect, because it isn't much to do with raw typing speeds. I introduced it because a fellow student bet me I couldn't write a 1000-word essay in our 1 hour break, because it would take him so much longer. Technically he was correct because after 980-odd words I was at a good place to stop, but he declared it a win anyway. 😁  But you are right - it was misleading and irrelevant.

My main point above all else is this:

A number of us have shown results from a typing site of somewhere in the 40s WPM, in a 1 minute test, self-taught.

Maybe you're genuinely a bit faster, but it seems to me being in the 40s is Good Enough,

Again I obviously didn’t explain myself properly - my apologies. It's not about speed - it's about how much less tiring it is to touch-type than any other form of typing (in my personal experience and observation of others). A non-touch-typist could certainly match me in speed, but the massive benefit for me is that I can keep typing for hours with very little fatigue. Far, far less than when I was typing with my personally-developed super-slick version of hunt-and-peck.

In the experience of me and others, the cognitive load from touch-typing is significantly less; enough to make a useful difference.

I did emphasise that in my first post: it's about keeping up the pace for a sustained time. That is where the gains are. And interestingly, even when I'm operating at my composing-plus-typing speed of an easy 1000 words per hour, it is still less tiring than hunt-and-peck.

[...] not worth effort improving, especially given a much lower average speed needed.

Well, of course, everyone knows their needs best. For me it was a great decision to learn touch-typing. I described the circumstances where it proved valuable: essays, assignments and dissertations at university; technical authorship; and writing reports and training material while I was at work. Obviously if your workload is different then your needs will be different. I don't believe I suggested everyone should learn to touch-type; if it came across that way then I apologise.

The original question was "Do you touch type", and my response was to say 'yes' and explain why, plus give some observations about the learning process itself.

[5U4GB]

I took a typing class in high school.
Best thing I ever did.  My best was 40 words/min.

Same here. Given the amount of time I spend behind a keyboard it's one of most useful classes I've ever taken. It's great to be able to essentially think onto the keyboard without having to pause or look away from the screen.

[SteveThackery]

Same here. Given the amount of time I spend behind a keyboard it's one of most useful classes I've ever taken. It's great to be able to essentially think onto the keyboard without having to pause or look away from the screen.

Exactly, and a great way to put it. You "think" words onto the screen, and it requires almost zero cognitive load.

[Monkeh]

But check these out: one is the split on-screen keyboard on my tablet, and the other is a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard.

That Microsoft keyboard is weird.

It has some features of the UK layout (double-height Enter key, backslash moved to the bottom row, double-quote above the 2), but it also has many features of the US layout (parentheses above 9 and 0 instead of above 8 and 9, many other non-alphanumeric characters in the US key positions).

It's not for me. Keyboard layouts are standardized for a reason, so that finger memory works.

I'm not sure when you last saw a UK keyboard, but that is a standard UK layout.

[NE666]

I bought an Ergodox EZ keyboard, and changed the key functionality to suit my particular preferred workflow and methods, which are then quite removed from 'real' touch typing on a Qwerty layout.

Interesting! That wouldn't be for me, not just because of the aforementioned uniqueness issue but also because it looks like it takes up too much space. And separate space too - you can't just shift it to the left a bit to make room for something but have to shift two things. But I can see it would be cool if you can be invested in it.

It's not going to be for everyone, that's for sure. Not least because if you've learned to type just through experience, without 'classical' touch typing disciplines such as home row resting, it really sets your typical speed back. I went from a solid 50-60 wpm, right down to 10-15! It took me a couple of months of regular practice with it to regain what I could have already achieved. However, a year down the line I could manage at least 80 wpm in the same tests, 100 on a good day.

I've also found that the split ergonomics *work for me* - I have nothing like the aches and pains from constant use in wrists and finger joints that I did before switching to the Ergodox. YMMV.

As for desk space, it may appear that way but I don't really find that it takes up any more real space than my previous keyboard. What you quickly notice is that with the keyboard being in two separate halves which are distanced from one another by a fair amount, there is now useful real estate there instead - I regularly place my coffee mug, reading glasses etc. in that centre space, whereas I'd previously have placed them to either side. A zero sum game.

[IanB]

I'm not sure when you last saw a UK keyboard, but that is a standard UK layout.

I thought I remembered a time when British keyboards had the parentheses ( and ) on the 8 and 9 keys rather than the 9 and 0 keys, but I'm struggling now to find examples of that. Maybe it was a really long time ago and my memory is playing tricks with me. Or maybe it was due to me travelling around Europe and encountering various other international keyboard layouts.

[ebastler]

I thought I remembered a time when British keyboards had the parentheses ( and ) on the 8 and 9 keys rather than the 9 and 0 keys, but I'm struggling now to find examples of that. Maybe it was a really long time ago and my memory is playing tricks with me. Or maybe it was due to me travelling around Europe and encountering various other international keyboard layouts.

That's where a German keyboard has the parantheses, for sure. (And unfortunately the [] too, with the AltGr modifier key. And {} are on AltGr 7 and 0. It's not great for writing code...)

[Halcyon]

It's something that's never really occurred to me. Yes, I touch type, but I grew up with computers, so it's just something that is instinctive.