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do you work out?

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Mr. Scram:

--- Quote from: Hero999 on June 18, 2018, 11:38:39 pm ---I agree, reducing calorie intake can also result in a reduction in cravings. This is especially true if carbohydrate intake is cut, hence why low carb diets have been quite popular. This can also be a bad, as well as a good thing. It can make it easier to lose too much weight, too quickly. By the time cravings do start to emerge, it's too late, the damage is done! I've also experienced this too.

And what do you consider to be good habits? In my opinion bad ones include: calorie counting, restricting, as well as just picking up the nearest high energy snack, such as a chocolate bar, are equally bad. In the past, they've made me fatter, rather than leaner.

But it's very relevant. Increasing activity levels is vital for long term, healthy weight loss. It's the sedentary lifestyle which is the real problem. Focusing on food alone, is not the way to tackle the problem. We need to do both!

Technically the calling it the Minisota starvation experiment was incorrect. None of the subjects stopped eating altogether and no one completely starved. It is very relevant to the discussion, because the striking thing about it was the energy deficit was similar to what's often recommended to those who need to lose weight, which is crazy, considering it resulted in rebound weight gain, above the starting weight.

The question is what are healthy behaviours and what aren't? What's taking it to the extreme? It's a slippery slope. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I've also not said that it's unhealthy to reduce energy intake, fullstop, just that restricting fat, calories, carbohydrates is. If someone is eating a too energy dense diet, then reducing the energy density of the food is healthy. What I see is unhealthy is the idea that one should actively seek to deprive themselves of food, especially when they're hungry: it doesn't end well!

I agree it's a good idea to be aware of energy intake, expenditure and the energy density of different foods. This is all good stuff, but eating numbers, rather than food is unhealthy.

I've I'd know all of this when I was younger I would have saved myself a lot of health problems. If I'd known that all I needed to do was get on my bike, I would have done it!

Another thing to note is that just focusing on weight loss alone is silly. If someone is obese so they decide to run 5 miles a day, but hardly lose any weight, after two months, then they haven't failed! They've become more healthy. They would have have achieved fat loss, even if the number on the scale didn't change and it's very important not to overlook this. They should keep it up. Maybe they'll start to lose weight a year later? Perhaps not, but they shouldn't give up!

The appetite signal has served the human race and other animals very well for millennia, so I'd dispute that. Something else is messing with the appetite signal, which is what needs to be fixed, rather than teaching people to ignore it altogether, which is not healthy, in the long term.

There are other more important questions, which need to be asked, to solve the problem. Calorie counting and restriction have been recommended as treatments for obesity for a long time, yet why have obesity rates since sawed? Why do some people need weight loss surgery? I don't believe in the slogan "If all fails, blame the patient!"

Why do the hunter gathers referenced in the video, you posted earlier, not overeat, like the average American?

Why did the average American not overeat 100 years ago, but they do now?

Why do I no longer overeat, now I'm physically active, yet I did before? And in both cases, I listened to my appetite signal.

Could it be because, over the long term, an active lifestyle and not too much energy dense food, makes overeating less likely?

Both fat and lean people, who aren't on some diet, will be following their appetite signals, yet why are some of them fat and the others lean? Perhaps genetics play a role?

--- End quote ---
I think we're mostly agreeing. You seem very hesitant to monitor calories because you've gotten yourself in trouble with that in the past. It is a valid strategy and what most proper dietitians and doctors use. It works very well for a huge amount of people. There is indeed a risk that people lose themselves or overdo it. Obsessing over calories is obviously not the way to go and depriving yourself to the point that you're compensating with unhealthy foods isn't either. However, awareness of what you eat and what it means for your body is helpful. A lot of people don't have a clue what the stinkers are and that's what calorie counting helps with. Just make sure to treat it like a tool and not like a religion.

Exercise should be part of maintaining a healthy weight, because your body simply functions better when you do. It can also help with the balance of energy, but people should be very aware it's essentially impossible to get to or maintain a healthy weight through exercise alone. The saying that losing weight is 80% diet and 20% exercise is fairly accurate. Exercise does support the moderation of energy intake in an excellent way and is a massive factor in your overall health, so exercise is always recommended.

The appetite signal has served animals and mankind for millennia. The important difference is that during these millennia people and animals have have predominantly lived in food scarce situations. Most animals will keep eating while there's food. Humans have manipulated the world into a situation where food is essentially always available, so our appetite signal needs to adjust. We're more restrained than a lot of animals, but it's obvious we haven't adjusted to the new situation yet. We tend to prefer foods containing things that are quite rare in nature, like fat and sugar. Unfortunately the impulse to eat any of that we can find is hurting us now and refined foods sometimes mean we're attracted to foods that lack everything else that nature tries to get us to eat.

EEVblog:

--- Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on June 19, 2018, 03:42:27 am ---
--- Quote from: hans on June 18, 2018, 09:11:54 pm ---I'm actually looking for alternative sports/workouts that don't put stress or repetitive movements on the knees.

--- End quote ---
Maybe take a look at isometrics, you load but with little to no movement. Used to do them when stuck in the car between classes.

--- End quote ---

Plenty of stuff you can do.
Swimming or water polo.
Rowing
Reformer Pilates
Overhead ladder based stuff at the gym, and almost any gym workout that doesn't involve the knees much. A simple cable machine could workout almost your entire body.

Kjelt:

--- Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 19, 2018, 08:16:33 am ---It is a valid strategy and what most proper dietitians and doctors use.
--- End quote ---
It is repeatable for many persons that is why it is so popular, but people are not all the same.
For instance I found out for my self by reading a book called the blood type diet that with my bloodtype I should not eat too many grains and esp. no wheat.
Instead I should eat more meat and skip diary products esp. cowmilk.
Now you can discuss this and I am not defending this book but it resulted in me experimenting with this a couple of years back.
By dropping cowmilk intake, my skin on my back that was always pinkish like an allergy completely dissapeared for the first time in my life.
No doctor/specialist ever could help me, it was also not burdening enough, but it lead me to believe that every human is unique and you don't get a manual at birth.
So why treat all humans as being the same? I know for instance that a lot of asian people can not tolerate cow milk at all.

The whole discussion now about cholesterol is also very typical, a wrong statistical experiment in the 70's lead to abandon animal fats.
While the same fats give a fast saturation feeling which makes you stop eating more. In the meantime the foodindustry removed the fats from their
products and replaced them with..... sugar
Now there is sugar in all industrial prepared food, in my crabsalad there is 5% sugar, no recepy of fresh crabsalad mentions any sugar.
I can go on and on but my message is that you should listen to your own body and experiment what works for you, try to eat meals with fresh ingredients and skip the industrial garbage foods,
which I also eat BTW.


--- Quote --- The appetite signal has served animals and mankind for millennia.
The important difference is that during these millennia people and animals have have predominantly lived in food scarce situations.
Most animals will keep eating while there's food.
Humans have manipulated the world into a situation where food is essentially always available, so our appetite signal needs to adjust.
We're more restrained than a lot of animals, but it's obvious we haven't adjusted to the new situation yet.
We tend to prefer foods containing things that are quite rare in nature, like fat and sugar.
Unfortunately the impulse to eat any of that we can find is hurting us now and refined foods sometimes mean we're attracted to foods that lack everything else that nature tries to get us to eat.
--- End quote ---
True, and besides your own discipline the food industry is there also part to blame, putting those "addictive" ingredients in great amounts into their products.
And the portions are also becoming larger. Prices for the worst food are lower than for the fresh good food which also does not help.

Here in Holland we are addicted to fried potatoe chips. When I was 10 the largest family bags were 100 grams and we ate with 4 persons from that.
Now the bags are a ludicrous 225g and if I am not carefull I can eat half of the bag on my own during watching a movie.
The trick is to downsize the industrial sizes, use a small cup and fill that with the chips and store the rest of the bag somewhere far far away :)
Best not to eat it at all indeed, I personally wish it was never invented ;)

Mr. Scram:

--- Quote from: Kjelt on June 19, 2018, 08:40:27 am ---It is repeatable for many persons that is why it is so popular, but people are not all the same.
For instance I found out for my self by reading a book called the blood type diet that with my bloodtype I should not eat too many grains and esp. no wheat.
Instead I should eat more meat and skip diary products esp. cowmilk.
Now you can discuss this and I am not defending this book but it resulted in me experimenting with this a couple of years back.
By dropping cowmilk intake, my skin on my back that was always pinkish like an allergy completely dissapeared for the first time in my life.
No doctor/specialist ever could help me, it was also not burdening enough, but it lead me to believe that every human is unique and you don't get a manual at birth.
So why treat all humans as being the same? I know for instance that a lot of asian people can not tolerate cow milk at all.

The whole discussion now about cholesterol is also very typical, a wrong statistical experiment in the 70's lead to abandon animal fats.
While the same fats give a fast saturation feeling which makes you stop eating more. In the meantime the foodindustry removed the fats from their
products and replaced them with..... sugar
Now there is sugar in all industrial prepared food, in my crabsalad there is 5% sugar, no recepy of fresh crabsalad mentions any sugar.
I can go on and on but my message is that you should listen to your own body and experiment what works for you, try to eat meals with fresh ingredients and skip the industrial garbage foods,
which I also eat BTW.

True, and besides your own discipline the food industry is there also part to blame, putting those "addictive" ingredients in great amounts into their products.
And the portions are also becoming larger. Prices for the worst food are lower than for the fresh good food which also does not help.

Here in Holland we are addicted to fried potatoe chips. When I was 10 the largest family bags were 100 grams and we ate with 4 persons from that.
Now the bags are a ludicrous 225g and if I am not carefull I can eat half of the bag on my own during watching a movie.
The trick is to downsize the industrial sizes, use a small cup and fill that with the chips and store the rest of the bag somewhere far far away :)
Best not to eat it at all indeed, I personally wish it was never invented ;)

--- End quote ---
I agree that not everyone is the same. At the same time it seems many people have very strange ideas about food and health. People tell themselves they're special and that's why normal advice doesn't apply to them all the time, much like the "golden ear" people in the audiophoolery world. People don't like the simple truth because people don't like changing their habits and try to deny it with all sorts of creative reasoning. Add to that that there's an industry that continuously creates new fads and you get some very strange and very strongly defended opinions that are completely contrary to any sane medical knowledge or decades of experience. It's remarkable to hear doctors talk about the strange ideas their patients come in with and have to fight against.

The blood type diet sounds like one of those invented ideas and a bit of research seems to confirm that. It's created by someone who calls himself a "naturopath", which is alternative medicine or non evidence based medicine. Research done indicates there no benifit to eating certain things when you have a certain blood type. Now, that doesn't mean the diet didn't help you. Not being able to cope with milk very well is quite common and it's very reasonable to think that an adjustment in intake helped you. Cow milk intolerance is hardly unique and actually a very common thing and completely accepted by conventional medicine. Individual humans generally have a unique combination of properties, but most of those properties are well known and described. Experimenting with what suits you is not a bad idea, but it's unlikely your body suddenly works completely different than that of any other or even breaks basic laws of nature.

Kjelt:

--- Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 19, 2018, 09:36:56 am ---I agree that not everyone is the same. At the same time it seems many people have very strange ideas about food and health. People tell themselves they're special and that's why normal advice doesn't apply to them all the time, much like the "golden ear" people in the audiophoolery world.
--- End quote ---
To a certain extent they are different you also see that some medicines do not work on certain people.
I agree that for most medical treatments you can generalize people and it works, so I would never disagree with a doctor or prescription, but also doctors are humans, most are specialist knowing a lot about a little part of the body. Doctors that know the entire body or how it all works together, can combine symptoms from one part of the body to an illness in another part is rare. That is why in the near future I hope AI will be able to combine and diagnose better than human doctors.


--- Quote ---People don't like the simple truth because people don't like changing their habits and try to deny it with all sorts of creative reasoning.
--- End quote ---
Very true, change is frightening for a lot of people and some habits are hard to change. Related to health it sure is a factor, some habits have a  subconscious psychological background, go find it out ;)


--- Quote ---The blood type diet sounds like one of those invented ideas and a bit of research seems to confirm that.
--- End quote ---
I only brought it up because it lead for me to a new insight, not that I want to defend it or propogate it.

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