Poll

When charging/dischargin a capacitor through a resistor, what waveform does the voltage have?

the voltage smoothly changes, following an exponential function
36 (73.5%)
the voltage changes in small jumps, looking like a stair with many steps
5 (10.2%)
neither (explain how)
7 (14.3%)
don't know
1 (2%)

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Author Topic: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?  (Read 7989 times)

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Online RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« on: June 06, 2020, 10:46:59 am »
Does a capacitor (dis)charges as a smooth exponential, or in stair steps?   ;D

Offline greenpossum

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2020, 10:47:54 am »
It takes the elevator.  :-DD

Actually it sometimes even goes backwards when you are not measuring it, but as soon as you do, it goes back to normal. Schrodinger discovered these capacitors.  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 10:55:34 am by greenpossum »
 

Online RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2020, 11:43:55 am »
It takes the elevator.  :-DD

Nope, it always takes the stairs.   ;D

Seriously, it's always in small stair steps, overall resembling the well known (and seen on the casual oscilloscope) exponential shape (and it is stair steps not because of charge quantization, or other quantum effect, it's because of something else entirely).  Any guess?

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2020, 11:52:08 am »
Charge is carried in units of electron charge, yes.  But, in a capacitor, their location with respect to the dielectric affects the electrical potential in the capacitor, and above Planck scale, location is continuous; so the potential across a capacitor even with just a single charge carrier pair is continuous.
 

Online RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2020, 12:31:17 pm »
I just said, the stair steps I'm talking are not about quantum physics.

As a hint, the small stair-steps has much to do with the geometry of the capacitor.   :o

Online RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2020, 01:10:09 pm »
Some other topic I was answering today (about transmission lines) reminded me about this curiosity I learned:  "capacitors always charge/discharge in stair-steps, NOT smoothly"!   ;D

It was years ago, and I never thought the video lectures are still on YouTube, but here it is, found it, the great channel of prof. Greg Durgin:  https://www.youtube.com/user/profdurgin/videos

and the video that tackles the current question is, the answer is stated at minute 43:00 (capacitor problem started somewhere around minute 29:50, and if that doesn't makes much sense, then the whole 5 previous lessons from the TDT playlist need to be watched (from youtube.com/watch?v=7Oz1sazpekM&list=PLULkq8AIoZ7zDTvbaWW9RvXR8Ngnpe0s8).

On short, it's stair-steps and not smooth, because the capacitor's plates are also a transmission line, as shown at minute 43:00.


;)

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2020, 02:29:25 pm »
the answer is stated at minute 43:00
He says that a capacitor in a circuit discharges in steps (and by logical extension, charges also in steps), because the circuit is and behaves like a transmission line.

Makes sense to me, but that looks at the entire situation at a specific scale, which I don't like; it makes this a trick question.  It is not an intrinsic property of capacitors, but a property of capacitors in a practical circuit.

If your power source is say a chemical or nuclear battery next to the capacitor, the effective circuit length is neglible (twice the dielectric thickness or possibly less), and the capacitor charges "smoothly".

What about the case where the capacitor is discharged not via a single line, but via a million strands of copper of different lengths?  Each strand is a separate transmission line, so each step is spread out into a million substeps.

What about the case where the capacitor is discharged via a wide flat curved conductor, so that the transmission line length varies continuously between minimum and maximum length?  (This happens, because most of the charge carriers in the conductor "travel" on or near the surface of the conductor.)  The steps are spread out into a continuous change.  This, in fact, can be experimentally verified; you just need a large copper sheet to act as the shorting conductor.
 

Online RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2020, 03:49:04 pm »
What he's talking there is about the capacitor's plates themselves.  The two plates are also a transmission line, therefore the plates themselves produce those stair steps.

The capacitors do charge and discharge in stair steps, and not smoothly, and as the poll shows, only very few of us are aware of the phenomenon.  Also, doesn't matter much for the day to day electronics.

But yes, my question was maliciously crafted to bamboozle.   ;D

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2020, 03:58:26 pm »
That was an interesting advanced topic, of course related to the fact we're talking about real, physical capacitors here, and not ideal ones.
Thanks for pointing it out - some food for thought.

And yes of course it probably doesn't matter in most use cases - outside maybe very high frequency stuff.
Would be interesting to actually *show* the phenomenon with relatively "basic" lab equipment, if it is at all possible.
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 04:15:36 pm »
 So why are capacitors used for Smoothing  .??   :-DD
If they were doing all this quantum stuff that would make a perfectly good power supply noise.  :palm:
Also the stepping is seen on a Digital scope .. Not on analog .. Maybe  because you are seeing digitization  ..
A supper capacitor charges very fast on the graph show almost a 65deg line over time .
the staircase would produce clicking . from any Capacitor
Theory and Practice are 2 different animals  >:D
 
 Long Live Mains Hum  >:D

All that stuff was done on a blackboard .. Lets see it . In real life .. As a Real Working Model .. & Not with fake chineeese caps.
 
PS If I got that form on my scope I would send it back for re calibration 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 04:42:53 pm by Labrat101 »
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2020, 04:42:17 pm »
What he's talking there is about the capacitor's plates themselves.
For a long skinny capacitor (a contrived example, he says himself).  For a short wide capacitor, or indeed a capacitor formed from circular discs, you get funky wave interactions, and no clear steps.  That is because there is no single reflected wave.  Similarly if the electrical connection is not a single point at one end, but multiple points with different path lengths.

If you consider something like current ceramic capacitors that are stacks of plates separated by dielectric ceramic, connected at one end, they really don't match that long skinny capacitor model.

Something like a big bulk capacitance at the end of a long pair of wires, though; that should be measurable.

The capacitors do charge and discharge in stair steps
As I said, I believe that only applies to certain circuits, and/or certain shapes of capacitors.  I don't like the claim.

Also, doesn't matter much for the day to day electronics.
Power transmission line engineers might disagree.  I seem to vaguely recall seeing something about this in that context, but can't be sure.
 
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Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2020, 05:02:00 pm »
Neither: the voltage is a continuous function of time and, for the pure capacitance of a component, obeys I = C dV/dt.

Current is unspecified, so an exponential charge or discharge is certainly not assured.  Nor is the stepwise motion of an ideal transmission line driven by an ideal step.

It's an interesting exercise to perform this measurement yourself: how slow can the step be, how lossy can the transmission line be, before the apparently stepwise motion ceases and ordinary exponential charge/discharge (assuming a resistive source) is apparent?

Therein lies the deeper truth: we use ideal models for near-ideal situations, and when one situation ceases to be near that ideal, we typically switch to another; a mixed model is therefore necessary to explain the overall behavior.

FWIW, most of my capacitors are fully end connected rolls of metallized film, so exhibit no appreciable transmission line behavior.  If they did, it would be with Zo << 1 ohm probably, and T < 100ps.  The leads (T ~ 100ps, Zo ~ 100 ohms) clearly dominate, and it looks like a lumped equivalent -- hence the three-element series equivalent traditionally used for capacitors. :-+

I think TL behavior is sensible (if insignificant in intended applications) in some film-oil caps, where the connection is usually made with a pair of ribbons to the middle of the roll.  Zo is still quite low because the roll is wide, but the electrical length is modest, so that assuming you can get a reasonable step through those ribbons (which again have a high Zo), you can probably observe a small ripple as it rings down.

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Offline Labrat101

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2020, 05:23:53 pm »
I Have seen his videos and Only once did he use a scope CT100 . the picture was on purpose out of focus.
 Sorry the Theory maybe correct, but in Practice No.
I used to work for a large electronic manufacture and this was not ever mention nor did we ever have staircase from any capacitor.
 That was visible on a scope .. At micro level or down to chemical structure of curtain materials maybe visible. but not on a CT100.
 Over the plates there will never be a 100% perfect transmission of electron movement. But these small factors are so small that 99.9% will never come into play .
Each Step would be few electrons But a scope uses pixels which are 1000s of times larger so the whole staircase would fit in 1 pixel .
  Need a good eye sight as well.
Low grade capacitors will have errors . that's why they are cheap.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 06:16:04 pm by Labrat101 »
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Online RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2020, 09:24:14 pm »


 ;D

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2020, 10:39:04 pm »
The Earth is also Flat  :-DD  my spirit level shows it to be true  ..  :-DD

Show a video of an actual working model with a schematics so we can all enjoy .


 

« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 10:42:18 pm by Labrat101 »
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2020, 06:45:21 am »
;D
I for one am not booing you, RoGeorge; I am only saying it is not an intrinsic property of all capacitors (and because of wording, that makes me disagree with your statement/poll).

(This is also at the core of my recent one-sided arguments about learning things, even if those feel like rants or useless whining to others.)

Let me repeat an example I've already mentioned recently elsewhere in this forum.

At least here, in school, kids are taught that electrons orbit atomic nuclei.

The core problem is the definition of "orbit".  (In physics and chemistry, they're not called "orbits", they're called "orbitals",  "orbital shells", and so on.)
Yes, the electron does have properties that are analogous to rotating around a center: angular momentum, something like an orbital radius, and even spin (analogous to "direction of rotation").
But the fact is that those electrons aren't actually moving, they're delocalized around the nucleus.  This delocalization can be described using quantum mechanics, so well that the best models we have (most accurate with respect to real-world measurable properties) of how molecules behave and react, are based on the quantum mechanical modeling of just the outermost interacting electrons!  No fitting to real-world data, just pure math and some physical constants, and out pops our best predictions of what certain molecules are like, and what their properties are.

What does it matter, then? The orbit model gives an intuitive grasp of the properties – radius and angular momentum in particular; and even spin! – and those are what even physicists and chemists work with, so there's no harm, right?

Wrong.  When a charged particle like an electron is deflected, accelerated, or decelerated by another charged particle, like an atomic nucleus or another electron, it radiates energy.  We call this phenomenon Brehmsstrahlung, or "braking radiation".  It happens for all charged particles, and is fundamentally due to conservation of energy.  So, it is fundamental to charged particles, including electrons.

The problem occurs when one tries to integrate the two, Brehmsstrahlung and electron orbits.  I fear that most people simply decide that somehow an electron orbiting an atomic nucleus, or flitting about in a metal lattice, is just an exception to Brehmsstrahlung, give a quick :-//, and ignore the dichotomy.  That is magical thinking, and leads to the inability of correctly choosing which "model" applies in which situation – so those people can recite information, but not apply it in real world to solve a problem or predict or estimate physical phenomena.

But, there is no dichotomy, only an incorrect description and thus incorrect understanding.  It would have been not that hard to explain correctly in the first place: delocalization looks like the electron is "blurred" across its "orbital", which looks more like a cloud than a ring; but if you measure it, it is like putting a stick into the spokes of a fast-turning bicycle wheel: you'll see one quite clearly.  The properties these delocalized electrons have, are almost exactly like if the electron was orbiting the nucleus like a moon orbiting a planet, and that's why we use that analog; but the actual physical description is much weirder, and involves quantum mechanics.

Trying to fix the mislearning later requires "un-learning" – or at minimum, accepting you were taught an incorrect thing because someone thought that teaching the actual thing was too hard.

Now, in the capacitor case, the staircase effect is not due to any intrinsic property of capacitors, but due to capacitors being part of an electrical circuit.  You can extend this into the capacitors themselves, if you model a long skinny capacitor charged or discharged at one end, in which case the capacitor itself becomes part of the circuit – transmission line, really.  The model breaks down if you have either very short transmission lines, or if the transmission "line" does not have a clearly defined length, so that the change in the electromagnetic field (in the transmission line) does not have a clear wavefront anymore.

I suppose the reason for emphasizing the transmission line model is to break through some preconceptions the students might have, and make sure they understand that the transmission line model applies to even circuits on a circuit board – even if in practice it only matters enough to worry about when delivering power via relatively long transmission lines.  That it is not something that applies to, well, actual transmission lines, but is a model that accurately describes what happens in circuits.

The laws that we use every day to describe electrical circuits or networks – Kirchhoff's laws, Ohm's law, Norton's theorem, Thévenin's theorem – are models that do describe the behaviour of the circuit or network, but themselves are the result of more fundamental descriptions of charges; they describe the behaviour, not what is nor why.  The underlying reality is much, much weirder, but these models give us tools to work with such systems without getting too bogged down into the weirdness.

That's basically what my own field, molecular dynamics simulations with classical potential models is, "classical" meaning just "non-quantum-mechanic".  We can do QM for maybe a system with a thousand electrons (but that may take a week to a month, depending on how large a computing cluster you can grab), but that's just a pretty small molecule – and we need repeated boundary conditions, too, which can be an issue if we want surface phenomena.  With less reliable/accurate but much simpler classical interaction models we can model systems with hundreds of millions to billions of atoms, getting into things like corrosion and damage resistance, defect migration in the large scale (and self-healing materials), ion implantation, sputtering, and so on, and get very useful real-world results.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 06:47:38 am by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline Labrat101

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2020, 07:44:01 am »
Hi,   Nominal Animal
That was very Good explanation .  Very true and totally correct.
I did not want to go into that sort of explanation as it maybe above some of the younger reader
that may read this forum.
There are Many factors in transmission lines etc .
There is one factor that will always be .. is our constant Mr. "Time" how ever we look at it will effect.
 And I think our friend "RoGeorge"  has some interesting ideas .  and it gives him a Job.
I remember that Dave made some videos a while back on similar .

A square orbit would be more interesting . as it would allow 1 to cut corners  (joking of course)



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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2020, 09:03:58 am »
That all looks theoretical.  Can you show us an actual example of this phenomenon, like a scope capture or something?  :box:
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2020, 02:32:48 pm »
If I use 2 1/2 meters of coax as the capacitor I can see the steps. LOL
Charged and discharged through a 390R resistor.
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 
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Online RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2020, 04:44:07 pm »
That all looks theoretical.  Can you show us an actual example of this phenomenon, like a scope capture or something?  :box:


I will love to see an oscilloscope screen capture with some stair steps or at least some undulating exponential, where the undulations can be proved as depending of the capacitor's geometry.  I tried once with an 100MHz oscilloscope and failed miserably.

If anybody have the time and the equipment to experiment, please share the results.

A clean experiment setup is much harder in real life than it is on paper.  That's why I never blame those that like to simulate.  However, even if I'm aware of a simulation's advantages, I'm not a big fan of it.  The best "comments wisdom quote" I can remember (related with my feelings about simulation) is about a software that was simulating robots (mainly a physics engine).

Some random dude commented "Simulated robots, simulated fun!"   ;D





;D

I for one am not booing you, RoGeorge; I am only saying it is not an intrinsic property of all capacitors (and because of wording, that makes me disagree with your statement/poll).

(This is also at the core of my recent one-sided arguments about learning things, even if those feel like rants or useless whining to others.)

Let me repeat an example I've already mentioned recently elsewhere in this forum.

At least here, in school, kids are taught that electrons orbit atomic nuclei.

The core problem is the definition of "orbit".  (In physics and chemistry, they're not called "orbits", they're called "orbitals",  "orbital shells", and so on.)
Yes, the electron does have properties that are analogous to rotating around a center: angular momentum, something like an orbital radius, and even spin (analogous to "direction of rotation").
But the fact is that those electrons aren't actually moving, they're delocalized around the nucleus.  This delocalization can be described using quantum mechanics, so well that the best models we have (most accurate with respect to real-world measurable properties) of how molecules behave and react, are based on the quantum mechanical modeling of just the outermost interacting electrons!  No fitting to real-world data, just pure math and some physical constants, and out pops our best predictions of what certain molecules are like, and what their properties are.

What does it matter, then? The orbit model gives an intuitive grasp of the properties – radius and angular momentum in particular; and even spin! – and those are what even physicists and chemists work with, so there's no harm, right?

Wrong.  When a charged particle like an electron is deflected, accelerated, or decelerated by another charged particle, like an atomic nucleus or another electron, it radiates energy.  We call this phenomenon Brehmsstrahlung, or "braking radiation".  It happens for all charged particles, and is fundamentally due to conservation of energy.  So, it is fundamental to charged particles, including electrons.

The problem occurs when one tries to integrate the two, Brehmsstrahlung and electron orbits.  I fear that most people simply decide that somehow an electron orbiting an atomic nucleus, or flitting about in a metal lattice, is just an exception to Brehmsstrahlung, give a quick :-//, and ignore the dichotomy.  That is magical thinking, and leads to the inability of correctly choosing which "model" applies in which situation – so those people can recite information, but not apply it in real world to solve a problem or predict or estimate physical phenomena.

But, there is no dichotomy, only an incorrect description and thus incorrect understanding.  It would have been not that hard to explain correctly in the first place: delocalization looks like the electron is "blurred" across its "orbital", which looks more like a cloud than a ring; but if you measure it, it is like putting a stick into the spokes of a fast-turning bicycle wheel: you'll see one quite clearly.  The properties these delocalized electrons have, are almost exactly like if the electron was orbiting the nucleus like a moon orbiting a planet, and that's why we use that analog; but the actual physical description is much weirder, and involves quantum mechanics.

Trying to fix the mislearning later requires "un-learning" – or at minimum, accepting you were taught an incorrect thing because someone thought that teaching the actual thing was too hard.

Now, in the capacitor case, the staircase effect is not due to any intrinsic property of capacitors, but due to capacitors being part of an electrical circuit.  You can extend this into the capacitors themselves, if you model a long skinny capacitor charged or discharged at one end, in which case the capacitor itself becomes part of the circuit – transmission line, really.  The model breaks down if you have either very short transmission lines, or if the transmission "line" does not have a clearly defined length, so that the change in the electromagnetic field (in the transmission line) does not have a clear wavefront anymore.

I suppose the reason for emphasizing the transmission line model is to break through some preconceptions the students might have, and make sure they understand that the transmission line model applies to even circuits on a circuit board – even if in practice it only matters enough to worry about when delivering power via relatively long transmission lines.  That it is not something that applies to, well, actual transmission lines, but is a model that accurately describes what happens in circuits.

The laws that we use every day to describe electrical circuits or networks – Kirchhoff's laws, Ohm's law, Norton's theorem, Thévenin's theorem – are models that do describe the behaviour of the circuit or network, but themselves are the result of more fundamental descriptions of charges; they describe the behaviour, not what is nor why.  The underlying reality is much, much weirder, but these models give us tools to work with such systems without getting too bogged down into the weirdness.

That's basically what my own field, molecular dynamics simulations with classical potential models is, "classical" meaning just "non-quantum-mechanic".  We can do QM for maybe a system with a thousand electrons (but that may take a week to a month, depending on how large a computing cluster you can grab), but that's just a pretty small molecule – and we need repeated boundary conditions, too, which can be an issue if we want surface phenomena.  With less reliable/accurate but much simpler classical interaction models we can model systems with hundreds of millions to billions of atoms, getting into things like corrosion and damage resistance, defect migration in the large scale (and self-healing materials), ion implantation, sputtering, and so on, and get very useful real-world results.


Would love to chat on each paragraph, but I'm a slow typer.

- I know nobody is booing, and I know that is not some fundamental capacitor's property, just steering the hype

- about your rant regarding the educational style, maybe it's OK to make things easy to comprehend, at first, then unlearn that later in order to achieve greater levels of detail, simply because one can not just suddenly jump to the most complicated description of reality

- even if the jump to the most complex explanation we have for now would be comprehensible, never forget that there is no ultimate explanation.  Don't fall for "my theory can make so many correct predictions, therefore it must be the correct one".  Remember the Greek legends about seasons changing?  Those myths were able to predict seasons, and when to start working the land.  Does that makes them true?  No.  Another example:  the religious ideas about the Earth being the center of the Universe apparently was good enough to predict some planets trajectories, and many other religious/social traits.  Those ideas look pretty barbaric now, isn't it?  So don't count of "predictability implies the ultimate truth".  After all, prophets are still dead-wrong in their belief, even if their prediction became true.

- let's set aside that capacitor transmission line, you want to talk about the simulation you are developing.  Put you Viking helmet on (I've just read that Finns are not Vikings  :-\ ) because my respect for most of the quantum theory (and other latest century physics) might be pretty low, I mean far, far away from the quantum praising we see in the media nowadays.  Won't go into it, because having a talk around such ideas will require to "unlearn" as you said, or at least to put aside for a while a lot of ideas we assume unconditionally correct right now just because "they can predict season changes and correct months for seeding and harvesting" as in the Greek mythology about Persephone.

- OK then, but do you have some other better theory to replace what we have now?  Nope. I'm just generally suspicious against any claims or theories, and since I don't have something better to completely replace the shoddy ones we have now, instead of trying to demolish what others are doing right now, let's try to build on what we have:

Can your software run a simulation where electrons are replaced by muons?

Asking because if we replace electrons with muons, then the same matter will become much heavier.  If it's heavier, then it will move slower (for a given temperature).  If it moves slower, then it will stay for longer in the proximity of another piece of matter, or atom/molecule whatever.  If it can stay for long enough and close enough, some tunneling phenomena will be expected to be seen, therefore "tunneling cold fusion", and that'll be your Nobel prize.   ;D
(Just to be clear, not my original idea.)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 04:53:46 pm by RoGeorge »
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2020, 05:45:46 pm »
If I use 2 1/2 meters of coax as the capacitor I can see the steps. LOL
Charged and discharged through a 390R resistor.

Very nice demonstration.

If the scope had a good step response it would be a very neat step approximation of the exponentials.  With a multisection trombone line you could make the steps smaller and smaller until they disappeared.

Rather like the fundamental theorem of calculus.

Would you post a schematic of the setup you used?  I'd like to try doing it with my 1 GHz Tek 7104 analog scope and one of Leo Bodnar's <40 ps edge pulsers.  Being traditional Tek it has a good step response even if it's out of adjustment.

Have Fun!
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Offline jmelson

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2020, 05:56:39 pm »
You can extend this into the capacitors themselves, if you model a long skinny capacitor charged or discharged at one end, in which case the capacitor itself becomes part of the circuit – transmission line, really.
AHA!  I know this one, that's a coaxial cable!  And, I've sure studied those with TDR techniques to detect where the bad spot is, etc.

I've also seen "capacitor quakes".  We built a rig to detect neutrons, back in days of the Pons-Fleishman madness.  It had a bunch of He-3 detectors in a tub of paraffin moderator.  These detectors needed a 1500+ V bias, and then the signal was capacitively coupled to electronics.  When you turned on the bias, there were large pulses for several hours which slowly decreased in frequency.  This turned out to be the ceramic capacitor dielectric being squeezed by the electric field, and "creaking".  It made the whole setup very unreliable.

Jon
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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2020, 06:09:47 pm »
It had a bunch of He-3 detectors...

Did you say Helium 3?!   :o



 ;D

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2020, 06:38:02 pm »
I know nobody is booing
Good, because even if it is not a good model for a capacitor per se, it is/can be very useful model for a capacitor in a circuit.

maybe it's OK to make things easy to comprehend, at first, then unlearn that later in order to achieve greater levels of detail
Very well could be; I don't know.  All I know is that some people I've tried to help learn struggle hard with that unlearning.  Best case scenario, in my opinion (and the core of that "rant") is to make sure your explanation is rooted in a verifiable random-access context.

even if the jump to the most complex explanation we have for now would be comprehensible, never forget that there is no ultimate explanation.
Very true, and that makes it even more important to teach kids critical thinking.  And to not shy away from opposing viewpoints, but to explore them, to see what the core or basis for that viewpoint is.

Me, I'm often wrong.  Understanding what others base their opinions on, helps me evaluate the reliability of my own.  It being just the current working set of assumptions and opinions, after all.

my respect for most of the quantum theory (and other latest century physics) might be pretty low
I'm pretty jaded at anything 'nano' myself: it's typically just a buzzword.

QM simulators, like VASP (Vienna Ab Initio Simulation Package) are typically based on density functional theory, and really just model the electrons only, using Schrödinger equation.  Using just the theoretical models of how electrons (or charges) interact, the minimum energy configurations these simulators find seem to describe actual molecules and lattices very accurately.

Classical potential models treat each atom as a separate particle, with interactions between particles described using a potential function – typically between two, three, or four particles; metals (except some like chromium) typically work well with just two, biomolecules use models with three or four.  Forces are derived from the potential function (literally, hah!), as the negated gradient of the total potential is the force acting on a particle.  These usually have an algebraic form derived from how the outer electrons in these atoms interact, with constants fitted to real-world measurements.

Water is surprisingly one of the nastiest to model. 

Currently, the simulators' core structure is straight off the seventies, except with CUDA acceleration bolted on.  That's what I'd like to improve on, making it easier for non-programmer physicists to efficiently try out new potential models, parallelize the simulations better, and allow mixing particle trajectory simulations with Monte Carlo methods (so that long-term equilibrium states can be found more efficiently, following some kind of simulated event or process, without switching simulators).  Oh, and to make Monte Carlo simulations distribute/parallelize better.  I like doing that kind of work, and watch and see what others can discover using those tools.
 
Can your software run a simulation where electrons are replaced by muons?
Not mine, but I think it should be doable in VASP or some of the other Ab Initio ones, by modifying electron mass; that should "pull" the muon orbitals much closer to the nucleus, so the modifications should be easy to verify with a muonic hydrogen atom.  Pity VASP isn't open source.  Oh darn, Dalton is since 2017, and I hadn't noticed!  I'm out of touch.

I've also seen "capacitor quakes".
What I'd like to know, is how long did it take to discover the culprit!

I've always had a soft spot for LENR, just because it would be so useful if it'd work.. although we're starting to have really interesting SMRs, actually.  Pity the public does not realize coal power releases more radioactive particles into the atmosphere than nuclear power does, even including all past accidents.

For a hobby project, I'm trying to help put together a sensor suite for a fusor; specifically, a robust subsystem for temperature, pressure, etc. monitoring.  Simple, really, except that it should be maintainable and understandable by physicists with minimal electronics or programming background; and I just don't believe cobbling together something on top of Labview is a good idea.  It's always the human issues that make things difficult!  ;D
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Does a capacitor charges smooth, or in stairs?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2020, 09:35:10 pm »
Hi all
I am running this experiment on 320cm (3mtr 20) satellite cable which has a capacitance of 0.184nf .
Cat 5 series 59 , 20AWG .
Using the same more less setup as in our friends "StillTrying"  picture I could reproduce this image.
..
I stopped and thought for a while . this can't be right .. and I had this vision of Dave Johns whacking me with a baseball bat.  :palm:
So I ran some test on my HP Agilent scope . Ran a frequency scan to find the tuned frequency of this cable. with a sine wave. these steps are there .. Miss match!! change the resistor to match the cable . and ran a 50ns pulse . I got a square wave back.. the staircase vanished .
What you are seeing is the reflected pulse harmonics back adjusting the frequency up or down adds more steps .
 From what I am seeing its not a capacitive charge in a staircase, but a miss matched independence .
When the cable is matched to the scope .also the probes have a capacitance my one is 13pf  has to be add to the equation .

Also on our  friends  ''StillTrying'' scope picture had ringing on his pulse which would also be reflected ..
 I am not knocking your work or the scope picture it was good .  :-+
I would like to see someone else's work on this ..

I started with 390 ohm in series with the centre core and the screen to ground . 1 probe 200mhz @x10 on core after the 390 ohm . Set 5Mhz pulse  @ 5v  . 1st attempt .
also tried low freq @ 100khz @ 2v  , 10mhz  @ 5v , 12.5mhz @ 5v , 20mhz @ 5v , & 25mhz @ 5v  pulse
I also put another scope at the end of the cable ..
I only go this staircase affect when the cable was Not match to the scope .  :-+

I am awaiting for some new parts for my function Generator so I can reinstall the OCXO  and have 0.02 PPb  ;D
 at the moment its only 200ppm but good enough for this test .
 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 09:45:35 pm by Labrat101 »
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