Author Topic: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty  (Read 426 times)

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Offline aqarwaen

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with this i mean you work at making new electronic devices,but discover that large amount, Microcontrollers,flash memory,emmc memory, transistor chips  or what else you use in devices has failed has failed in large amounts.
does warranty exist in chip manufacturing level,for example if you order 100.000 chips and only 50.000 them are working fine or don't work at all...
so do you have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty??
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2019, 08:15:32 pm »
It is very rare for new chips obtained directly from  factory-licensed distributors to have failures.  I have had two cases where grey-market parts had high failure rates.  One case was verified by the manufacturer to be recycled parts that had apparently been installed backwards and powered up.  The clue was mixed-up date codes on one length of tape.  About 50% blew up immediately on
power-up on my boards.

The other case was obsolete parts obtained from China, and likely had been stored in uncontrolled environments for years.  About 20% failed to program after reflow.  The same batch had 100% yield when manually soldered.

With new parts from real distributors, I have had maybe 5 truly bad parts in the last 30 years of building boards.  These could be due to ESD or whatever handling mishaps.

Jon
 

Online Dr. Frank

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Re: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2019, 09:07:08 pm »
In such cases, there should exist sort of product liability, like for every other product.

As these parts are 'semi-finished' goods only, the first problem is, that the common consumer protection laws do not apply automatically, like 1 to 2 years of guarantee, as for TV sets or washing machines.

The 2nd problem is to prove the failure of the components to get a juridical grip on the manufacturers.
Also, it's always a controversy about the root cause, i.e. you could as well damage these parts in your own assembly line, or by faults in your application.

Component failures might be systematic ones, as you described, that 50% of a batch fail, or simply the ordinary statistical failure rate, due to sample and production variations on ppm scale, or temporary production problems, i.e. only one or several batch has a higher than expected failure rate.

The third aspect is the number of pieces we're talking about.
You'd probably have no chances to get any refund for single failed pieces (as you'd have with a singular washing machine), but only if you have big quantities, like for a beefy series production, 100k being still small.

In an automotive electronics company, where many billions of components were assembled each year, there exist special contracts directly with each of the manufacturers (usually not with any vendors/distributors), fixing exactly the allowed failure rates (depending on commodity), the root-cause-methods to decide on failure / no failure detected, and the refund and penalties in case of excess failure rates, a cutback of production, a stop of production, field recall, and other cases.

Such rules do not exist in general laws, to my knowledge.

To be able to negotiate such a contract depends on the order volume, so you might try to get a 'small' solution if you ask your manufacturer for a warranty contract.

Frank
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 09:43:22 pm by Dr. Frank »
 

Online imo

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Re: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2019, 10:09:18 pm »
In B2B relationship you have to agree the warranty terms and conditions within the actual Contract. When not agreed upon there is none warranty.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2019, 11:07:52 pm »
With new parts from real distributors, I have had maybe 5 truly bad parts in the last 30 years of building boards.  These could be due to ESD or whatever handling mishaps.
It also depends on the quality of the part. I've seen 100% failure rates on Sipex parts. We didn't even bother with warranty but used Maxim parts instead.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 11:17:56 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2019, 10:15:24 pm »
It also depends on the quality of the part. I've seen 100% failure rates on Sipex parts. We didn't even bother with warranty but used Maxim parts instead.

Do you recall part number or failure mode?
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2019, 09:32:31 am »
Honeywell's geniuses decided to change the pin-out of airflow sensor modules, but left the old revision datasheet inside the packaging with the WRONG pin-out data. Wire them up exactly as per the instructions and the modules destruct. Cost = $1,300. I contacted Honeywell who said, "Speak to the supplier". I contacted Element 14, and they said "Speak to Honeywell". I could not get either of them to provide a refund despite showing all the evidence and arguing with them over a period of about 6 months on and off. I guess profit was more important to them than their responsibilities. Very poor form by both companies. Despite it being Honeywell's stuff-up, Element 14 violated Australian Consumer Law. Since this debacle about 9 years ago, I have avoided using Honeywell parts, and Element 14 has been awarded the badge of being supplier of last resort.

In contrast I had some SLAC chips from a Taiwanese vendor that had a silicon problem. They flew out and FAE to Australia to investigate and discovered they had a batch problem. The support could not have been better and there was a refund for the bad chips.
 

Online wraper

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Re: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2019, 09:48:50 am »
The other case was obsolete parts obtained from China, and likely had been stored in uncontrolled environments for years.  About 20% failed to program after reflow.  The same batch had 100% yield when manually soldered.
Sounds like moisture sensitive chips which you failed to bake before reflowing.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2019, 10:16:39 am »
with this i mean you work at making new electronic devices,but discover that large amount, Microcontrollers,flash memory,emmc memory, transistor chips  or what else you use in devices has failed has failed in large amounts.
does warranty exist in chip manufacturing level,for example if you order 100.000 chips and only 50.000 them are working fine or don't work at all...
so do you have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty??

There are so many variables here.

Did you purchase from a reseller, because the mfr are usually only interested in selling millions of chips. 100,000 doesn't interest them.

Are the chips within their use by date ?

Did you batch test them to the mfrs specs before use ? Did the batch all pass ?

Do you have recorded data of your processes, reflow data etc ?


Online nctnico

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Re: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2019, 11:19:13 am »
It also depends on the quality of the part. I've seen 100% failure rates on Sipex parts. We didn't even bother with warranty but used Maxim parts instead.

Do you recall part number or failure mode?
The chips just failed; don't recall the details. The only thing I do remember is warning the purchasing department to get the Maxim parts because I had bad experiences with Sipex before. I've also seen relatively high failure rates on Microchip devices.

There are several brands I don't use in designs: Microchip / Atmel and Sipex. Generally I avoid really cheap B-brand devices because the designers often cut corners which may affect reliability, meeting specifications and interfacing with the outside world. The cheaper devices need a lot of extra work to verify functionality and fitness for purpose in a design so in the end you may end up spending more.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 11:25:20 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online wraper

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Re: does anybody here have experiences with chip manufacturers warranty
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2019, 03:17:42 pm »
The chips just failed; don't recall the details. The only thing I do remember is warning the purchasing department to get the Maxim parts because I had bad experiences with Sipex before. I've also seen relatively high failure rates on Microchip devices.
Maxim is not blameless. There were bad batches of MAX31855K https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/max31855-temperature-error/. Also with 100% bad batches of small parts in not full reels you need to check if you actually got the right part.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 03:20:29 pm by wraper »
 
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