General > General Technical Chat
Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
floobydust:
OP I no longer share your optimism when dealing with china for electronic components, kinda sour about it. I find relationships or "guanxi" apply only to the People which Westerners are not. After the initial honeypot, they are opportunists and will cheapen things to no limits- as you let them, and jack up prices once you are hooked and in need of their parts.
I traced problems back to the transformer, permeability way low. Emails to the manufacturer and translation hassles, reveals "annealing was changed".
Not used to that kind of problem, as if I'd know what is involved in making nickel-iron. I guess the metallurgy quality over there is a bit loosey goosey but I'm fine to toss the cartons of parts in the garbage and let higher ups haggle over who should pay. It's not worth shipping them back. But still, what a hassle.
Of course it's our fault because the control drawings did not specify EVERYTHING. Wire size, insulation, core properties, hi-pot, winding geometry etc. etc. Without this, you can get "variations"... as they save every penny or just due to the quality wandering- and it's permissible because it is not specified by the customer.
A now gone forum member said "china's only advantage is their population, they pay the same as everyone else for materials".
But I can't buy the raw materials alone compared to the price of completed parts out of china. Something is grossly wrong.
I think they are dumping products, certainly PCB's, aluminum, steel etc. as a national strategy to stomp out the competition. How many companies in the UK are making transformers? At what point is Brian Sowter going to be worth it lol. It's literally 20-30X more expensive.
peter-h:
"UK moulding recommendation for small enclosures?"
There must be 10 companies within a 10 mile radius, in the UK. I used to be next door to one such, running 24/7, with 1 machine, churning out plastic cups. I am sure he was the cheapest around, in that business.
"I find relationships or "guanxi" apply only to the People which Westerners are not. After the initial honeypot, they are opportunists and will cheapen things to no limits- as you let them, and jack up prices once you are hooked and in need of their parts."
Yes I think they often just hate us. But hey you could say that about so many scenarios. Do you think the Spanish like the Brits living there, or the French like the Brits buying up the old barns? Those Brits are busy moving back to the UK because they found that despite learning the language and making some effort they were never accepted. Whereas in the UK European foreigners are normally taken at face value.
But the real problem in modern China is that it is fast moving and anybody enterprising is trying to make a fast buck. The average company "we" deal with has say 100 people and 1 of them speaks English, and if that one person (who is in high demand) moves on (which they do every 6 months) you have to almost start again. And people don't care about screwing somebody over. I've found the Chinese totally shameless. But as long as they are cheap they will get business.
"Of course it's our fault because the control drawings did not specify EVERYTHING"
You you have to be specific in the spec. If possible, free issue the materials. I have bought 6000 cores and sent only 3000 to China to be wound, so if they vanish before they ship, I haven't lost all the cores (16 week lead time) :)
", they pay the same as everyone else for materials"
They do NOT. They get almost everything for much less. Plastics, cables, metal parts. All much cheaper. Here in the West everybody in business is trying to make 100k+ so they can have 3 cars outside the house and kids in a private school.
Western chip companies sell chips for far less in China than in the West. They always have done. But only to big volume mfgs. Intel pricing for example was perhaps 30% of Western pricing. I have come across companies there who managed to buy chips there and ship them to here but today they are hard to find.
Notably, metalwork is vastly cheaper in China. Here, any sort of metal enclosure costs a few quid - unless you can knock it out with a complicated press tool in one go. Even 1k+ it is a few quid. In China it is under $1.
"How many companies in the UK are making transformers?"
Those are labour intensive, so they went to China. But also the Chinese can buy the ferrites for a lot less, from no-name companies out there. Compare the price of an RJ45 with integral magnetics (e.g. Hanrun) with Western-made versions (Wurth is a good example of grossly overpriced stuff). But even Hanrun are being counterfeited at about 1/3 of the price...
floobydust:
You're cheating by sending them the cores lol. How did you resist the massive cost savings, they really hate having to not use their own materials. I found they still have to i.e. buy German fasteners and bearings sometimes, they simply can't do precision parts... yet. Or complex test equipment, they will search locally then give up and import it.
I've often wondered how many are State Owned Enterprises at the top level, and it's a plethora of shell companies that are offering the same stuff to the West.
So your transformer is simply wound and taped in china? If the labour costs were $0, that toroid or enclosure manufactured locally would still never be priced close to what is coming in off the boat. I'm suspicious they're dumping because there is nothing else left that could lower the end cost an order of magnitude say 20x.
I'm curious, if you bought the latest technology coil-winding machines, why would it still cost more to do it locally? Price of copper wire, people working slower less of a sweatshop etc. I can't see what is eating up the cash.
peter-h:
The £1.20 UK company disappearing and the one which bought their assets charging £11 is just people taking the piss. Obviously I am not paying £11. But I've found UK transformer makers aren't interested in doing business. I bought a couple of 230V to 4.5kV transformers for a flash tester and they took 6 months to arrive...
The chinese company charges USD 0.50 to wind the free issue cores, which I judge to be about the right price. I had an offer at USD 0.35 but the company communicated badly.
If you bought a toroidal winding machine and got somebody on the NMW (national min wage) to sit in front of it, it would also be very cheap, but not viable unless it is running all the time. It's like it isn't worth getting your own SMT placement and reflow (due to the cost of the operator) even if you can buy the two machines ex-bankrupt quite cheap.
I have found the secret of dealing with China: buy a LOT and buy it rarely :) Then the hassle occurs rarely.
I like to buy just once a year, preferably once in a few years, and with a lot of cheap stuff this is easy. For example we use little springs. Used to pay 20p here. I found a chinese spring maker who quoted about 1p, for 300k of them. Now, 300k will last us about 50 years, but it cost just 3k to buy them :) They came in little sealed bags, 100/bag, with silica gel, while the UK ones were going rusty quickly.
floobydust:
I agree the local old dinosaur companies charging a fortune, will die out and go extinct. That boss will never get a new Jag... unless government grants keep them alive.
The cost of a mould, the setup fees for a PCB or assembly - are ridiculously high in the West. Quotes for a tiny custom spring (even in stock ones) Willie Washer USA were $4 each, regardless of quantity :palm: Who wouldn't go East?
I'm wondering if you are saying "on-shoring" is a myth? The only possibility for low cost is automation to compete with NMW, and to eliminate middlemen (and fatmen) in the supply chain. Your shipping/duties costs can't be insignificant- just to get winding and tape.
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