Author Topic: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON  (Read 5996 times)

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Offline Simon

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2021, 08:28:41 pm »
[...] What applies to china applies to any country, trading has to be done largely on faith unless you have the money to sue and you have a contract that recognises a legal jurisdiction that may not be the one of the buyer or seller. It's as simple as that. [...]

I disagree, they do not comprehend the Rule of Law that defines the West. The "100 years of national humiliation" has rightfully resulted in angry nationalism that people need to be aware of. Copyright infringement? Theft of IP? Phone the police lol. The narrative is mistrust and bias against foreign entities, as they damaged the country many years ago.

I think it's impossible to talk about sourcing electronics components without the politics of developing nations coming up.
Nothing has impacted the global electronics profession as much as china and it's important to not be naive or have a gag order, and share the pitfalls.
I understand emotions, anger, hostility will cause a thread to crash'n burn though.

Imagine sourcing this simple plastic box being such a hassle.

No you totally misunderstood what I put, I never said they are honest, I said that this is how it works, take it or leave it! So you do business with someone in any other jurisdiction even a "western" one and there is a problem, what do YOU do about it? can YOU actually DO anything?
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2021, 10:14:18 pm »
Sorry I didn't read that right. Here, you can go to court over say getting the moulds returned and any breach of contract. IP is somewhat protected.
A similar course of action in china looks like hell. You really have to do your homework. Snippet taken from https://harrisbricken.com/chinalawblog/contracts-in-china-enforce-it-or-go-home/

"... To pursue a claim successfully against a Chinese company, the following is usually required:

First, there must be a written contract between the parties, executed by both parties in accordance with the Chinese law requirements. It used to be common to do business in China without a contract. Much OEM manufacturing in China is done on a purchase order basis, with no underlying contract. Much service work done by foreigners for Chinese clients is based on an exchange of emails. Back in the days when China had no laws and no courts, this informal approach made some sense because there was no alternative. Today, however, to be able to bring a plausible claim against a Chinese company, the foreign plaintiff almost always must be able to show a formal relationship between the parties. Unlike in the U.S. or the EUR, Chinese courts rarely allow for proving the existence of a contract by putting together pieces evidenced by scattered POs, invoices, emails and desperate phone calls. The court will insist on a written agreement that unambiguously names the parties and provides the basis for the agreement.

Second, the contract must be enforceable in China. As a practical matter, Chinese courts incredibly rarely enforce foreign judgments and it can be quite difficult to get them to enforce a foreign arbitration award. A contract enforceable in China must meet the following basic standards:

1. The contract is governed by Chinese law. Under Chinese law, it is permissible to provide that the contract be governed by foreign law. However, providing for foreign law all but guarantees failure in a Chinese court because Chinese courts require the party to prove every relevant element of foreign law. This is a disaster for several reasons. First, proving foreign law is expensive. Second, proving foreign law leads to delay. Third, skillful defendants will dispute the application of foreign law, rendering your case and even any judgment you receive uncertain.

2. The governing language of the contract is Chinese. Under Chinese law, it is permissible to provide that the governing language of the contract is a foreign language such as English. To do so, however, nearly always leads to disaster. Chinese courts will only work with Chinese language documents. This means the contract must be translated into Chinese. The translation will not be done by the parties but rather by a court appointed translator. The translator is often not particularly skilled and the resulting translation is often simply wrong. Even when the translation is correct, the defendant will often dispute the translation, leading to delays and ultimate uncertainty in the decision. Having someone else translate your contract after you sue means that you do not even know exactly what it is on which you are suing. We are also aware of Chinese courts simply refusing to hear cases that involve contracts in a language other than Chinese.

3. The contract should be enforceable in a Chinese court with jurisdiction over the defendant. This normally means jurisdiction in a court in the district where the defendant has its principal place of business. China has excellent domestic arbitration panels with extensive experience in resolving foreign disputes. But litigation is usually a better alternative for several reasons.

First, in disputes with smaller Chinese companies, there is a concern the company will dissipate assets before a judgment can be obtained. Chinese courts can order a prejudgment writ of attachment that prevents this. In addition, a prejudgment writ will often convince a smaller Chinese company to resolve the matter quickly.

Second, the plaintiff in a dispute with a Chinese company will often want an order instructing the defendant to take some action such as ceasing to infringe IP rights, return molds or tooling, or appointing a manager or officer of a company. In other words, what would be called injunctive relief in a common law system. Chinese courts have the authority to issue such orders and an arbitration panel does not.

4. The place of litigation should be in the district where the Chinese defendant has its principle place of business. Many foreign parties will seek an agreement for jurisdiction in some neutral district such as Beijing or Shanghai. This is a mistake. First, Chinese courts will simply ignore such agreements. Second, and more important, Chinese courts are reluctant to enforce judgments from other districts and they often will ignore orders issued by Chinese courts from other districts. This means if you get a judgment in Beijing but need to enforce it in Chengdu against your Chinese counter-party, you may not be able to do so."
----------------------

I think for OP, and I've made this mistake too is the "discounted" or "no fee" development work flipping the IP situation around:

"The first disaster usually occurs when the Chinese manufacturer does not charge the foreign company anything for the product development work. In these situations, the Chinese manufacturer often will claim that any intellectual property in the developed product is its own and will generously offer to make the product on behalf of the foreign company at price, payment, quantity, quality and delivery terms chosen by the Chinese manufacturer. Our China lawyers see this all the time, especially with start-up companies involved in making products for the Internet of Things ecosystem. No matter how outrageous the pricing or other demands from the Chinese manufacturer, there is little the foreign company can do because it waited until development was finished before even considering who would end up with “its” IP."

Rest of the article is a very good read https://harrisbricken.com/chinalawblog/china-product-development-agreements/
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2021, 07:04:05 am »
And again you fail to see my point which put bluntly is: when dealing with a country like china you either put up or shut up! It's not like you are not forewarned, you just have to have a 5 minute understanding of how international law works. From what you say you can only sue a chinese company in china under their laws, if you deem those unfavourable then you don't do trade. This is why people who deal with china will hire a local representative that understands the laws and will get you what you want.

Contracts are worthless if they are unenforceable in practice or the party that should loose has nothing to loose. What you do if you do not like the laws of the jurisdiction where your opponent is is to get them to agree to a contract in a place where you both agree that you are OK with that jurisdictions laws and crucially where you both hold assets!!!! it's pointless doing a deal with a company in say korea under the legal jurisdiction of alasaka if the company has no assets in alaska because the alaskan authorities have no authority over assets in korea.

If the whole thread is just about calling chinese suppliers dishonest then I may as well just lock it! this is not news. What is more important is to work out how to not get caught out rather than bitching about your own ignorance!
 
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Offline peter-hTopic starter

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2021, 02:46:26 pm »
Yes; all talk of contracts is meaningless, because enforcing anything in China will cost 5 digits plus. There is no such thing as "international law".

I think the only way to play this game is to buy a lot of stock in one go, and maintain a high stock level.
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Offline peter-hTopic starter

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2021, 11:08:51 am »
An update:

The company subcontracted the moulding to another one. They asked us to deal with that company directly, for future business.

Then we got a string of bizzare comms, some (from them) via SMS and some via email. The moulding company won't reveal their address, and the name they use is probably fake. So I asked them to return the tool. Then more bizzare comms e.g. the employee saying it "puts her in a difficult position", and later saying they want another USD 1000 to release the tool, or a PO for 10k mouldings at the new vastly inflated price.

However, we never had a business relationship with this company. The tool was paid for via the original company, so it is their responsibility. Of course they are washing their hands of it too.

I don't really want to pay the USD 1000 because they could pocket the money and return a smashed up tool. That is another well known Chinese practice; happened to us a few times with test equipment we sent out there. I can get a new tool made for about USD 3000. In fact this would be the 3rd tool for the same moulding :)

I wonder if anyone has any experience of "Chinese extortion" practices and how they can be resolved. For example, while I very much doubt the Chinese police will be interested, it may also be that a visit from the local police will scare the hell out of a Chinese businessman.

It is possible that both firms are reading this, of course.

I am not posting their names, yet :)
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Offline Simon

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2021, 06:47:50 pm »
You are delusional, you have no enforceable contract with anyone. How much is your time worth? Just pay for a new tool with a local company and cut your losses.
 
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Offline peter-hTopic starter

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2021, 02:41:12 am »
Why do we use China?

Tooling: UK=£6k, China=USD3k
Mouldings: UK=£0.50, China=USD0.13 (+shipping of USD0.07)

The risk is that you are often dealing with what over here one would call criminals.
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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2021, 08:55:05 am »
Right so how many are you making a year? can your mark-up tolerate the increase in price? I don't know what you put in these enclosures but you are talking a piece price increase of 35p but you do have the increased tooling up front. But then with all the potential hassle over a part you cannot just replace what is the cost of loosing that part?
 

Offline all_repair

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2021, 02:25:32 pm »
Why would the sub-contractor/vendor of your main supplier want to deal with you?  Don't waste their time and also your time.  I think I can source quite well from China , but sometime I also got hit.  It is part of the sourcing process.   Your process in sourcing can be improved further.  To start off, the catalogue you referred to is full of traders.  The better their English, the less likely they are the real manufacturers.

My reading of the deal is the mold may or may not be there.  When I cannot access it, it is not mine from the first day.  The pricing and the breakdown the supplier provided is what needed to cover their profit and also what could make me accept, or my approving body accept.  In short, the breakdown is irrelevant.  And this quote is only good for one time only.  The quote for next order shall have unit price increase as they cannot charge for the mold again, but their cost and their markup is likely the same.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 02:50:34 pm by all_repair »
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2021, 02:58:43 pm »
Interesting discussion and unfortunately for the OP I don't have a good source in China. For two of our products we were offered the option to create a custom design, but we refused due to the low volumes (around 10k/yr) and the hassle of micro manage the whole process.

We ended up with standard enclosures from a reputable manufacturer. Obviously that there is always risk: the manufacturer can simply decide to discontinue the product as well, but they have a policy of early warning AND we have a purchasing contract with them.

One interesting thing mentioned in floobydust's post is that the conditions mentioned there are true for any of the countries that I know of. If you have a contract unenforceable in a jurisdiction and not written in the local language, you will indeed have to risk 5~6 figures amount to pursue that. And this is a gamble.

Things inproved in the international dealings in the past decades, but you still need deep pockets... 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 11:34:29 pm by rsjsouza »
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline peter-hTopic starter

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2021, 02:59:44 pm »
The tool exists. I managed to get a photo of it, after some weeks which showed they are subcontracting it.

An off the shelf box is not an option; they tend to all look the same, and are very expensive.
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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2021, 05:45:17 pm »
Years ago my past employer needed some duck bill valves that they had just run out of. No idea where they had come from. I got online, found a Chinese supplier and we ordered them having arranged the tooling. There was a bit of "but we own the tooling" but for the quantity price tooling included the piece price was not bad. I figured that even if we never bought any again the price was OK with the loss of the tooling. They never needed any more again, the time that has gone by if they can remember where they got them the tooling will be gone anyway.

If it's that important to you and you want to go to china then buy a damn lot and assume it's a one use only tool.
 

Offline peter-hTopic starter

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2022, 03:49:36 pm »
I've had some developments with this.

We threatened the moulding company, and the other company through which the tool was procured, with reporting them to the Chinese embassy in London, and to their local police station for theft of a tool.

The email was re-sent about 5x, once a week.

Of course nobody would expect Chinese police to do anything about a Chinese company stealing something from a customer in the West ;) but in this case "something" worked. They have agreed to us collecting the tool.

I am still trying to sort out the details (company name, etc). I have just an image in Chinese writing which I can't read but which I think is the company name.

They claim there is a severe covid lockdown there now and we must collect it immediately. Well, I need their name, address, etc, and they need to crate it, and generate a commercial invoice.

If they refuse to assist with the packing, are there any options in China whereby somebody there could drive there and pack it and get it shipped?

I managed to get the photo of the tool, below. Probably 30-50kg?

I want to ship it to the UK, because another Chinese company which we were going to give it to did a funny "misinterpretation" of the moulding and quoted a price for each case half instead of a whole case. Luckily I spotted this just in time. They also changed their currency from USD to GBP which is a 1.3x increase. The result is fully in line with a UK moulder around the corner from here!


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Offline Simon

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2022, 08:55:08 am »
How big is the tool? work out it's volume and assume the specific weight of steel.
 

Offline peter-hTopic starter

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2022, 09:37:30 am »
I was more wondering if anybody knows somebody out there who could go there, pack it, and make sure it gets shipped.

The address I have (left off the building number because I don't want somebody to phone the company and p1ss them off just for fun):

Xingye 1st Street, behind the bus station, Hengli Town, Dongguan City, Guangdong, China

They claim there is a severe covid epidemic there and the whole town may get closed off to the outside world.

I reckon 50kg.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2022, 09:40:13 am by peter-h »
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Offline peter-hTopic starter

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2022, 06:30:52 am »
As a final post-script on this saga, I got the tool out of that gangster country and back to the UK.

A final USD 400 extortion fee had to be paid for a 30km drive.

The thing which finally worked was me telling them I will report them, for theft, to the Chinese Embassy in London, and to their local police station. I would not have expected either to have any effect but perhaps they are scared of their police.

Surprisingly, it came back undamaged. Sometimes they smash stuff up with a hammer.

Never found out the actual moulding company (this is usual down there) but I got a load of weird SMS messages from a woman working apparently in there, saying her life was being made difficult and would I please reconsider (and pay 3x the previous price, etc).

« Last Edit: August 08, 2022, 06:32:25 am by peter-h »
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Online tom66

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2022, 09:12:37 am »
Why do we use China?

Tooling: UK=£6k, China=USD3k
Mouldings: UK=£0.50, China=USD0.13 (+shipping of USD0.07)

The risk is that you are often dealing with what over here one would call criminals.

A month of messing around for an engineer would easily pay back that extra cost in tooling.  China is only worth dealing with at high volumes and if you have someone in the country you trust who speaks both English and Chinese.

(edit: or it's worth dealing with for low volume prototypes, where a missed date is only of consequence to your project timescale, not to the solvency of a business or project!)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2022, 09:18:36 am by tom66 »
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2022, 06:41:41 pm »
As a final post-script on this saga, I got the tool out of that gangster country and back to the UK.

A final USD 400 extortion fee had to be paid for a 30km drive.

The thing which finally worked was me telling them I will report them, for theft, to the Chinese Embassy in London, and to their local police station. I would not have expected either to have any effect but perhaps they are scared of their police.

Surprisingly, it came back undamaged. Sometimes they smash stuff up with a hammer.

Never found out the actual moulding company (this is usual down there) but I got a load of weird SMS messages from a woman working apparently in there, saying her life was being made difficult and would I please reconsider (and pay 3x the previous price, etc).



basically they gradually worked out as much from you as you were willing to pay. I wonder if the tooling is useable.
 

Offline peter-hTopic starter

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Re: Does anyone recognise this Chinese moulded case - YORKTRON
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2022, 04:38:14 pm »
To end this story happily, I have just had a load of mouldings from the recovered tool, done here in the UK.

Never again use a chinese company for anything involving significant tooling.
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