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Does current flow through a Battery?
tszaboo:
Current is defined as movement of charged particles.
Batteries have a separator. Positive ions go through the separator.
Their negative particles, the electrons go through the wire, because they cannot go through the separator.
There is a movement of positive particles, so there is current in a battery. Its different than the current we usually see in wires and resistors and whatnot, but it is still current.
GlennSprigg:
--- Quote from: tszaboo on October 19, 2021, 11:19:32 am ---Current is defined as movement of charged particles.
Batteries have a separator. Positive ions go through the separator.
Their negative particles, the electrons go through the wire, because they cannot go through the separator.
There is a movement of positive particles, so there is current in a battery. Its different than the current we usually see in wires and resistors and whatnot, but it is still current.
--- End quote ---
Again, I know what you are saying too, but it's all a matter of 'nomenclature' and ideas used to understand.
Your statement of "Movement of Positive Particles", smacks to me of the 'old' idea, (hence direction arrows etc in Diodes, Transistors, Valves/Tubes),
before they realized that it is actually 'Electron' flow, from -ve to +ve, and not the other way around!! My old Instructors (about 50 years ago!), used
to try and explain it away by talking about... "A movement of Positive Holes", in the reverse direction of actual Electrons! Here's how that worked!!...
"Put a line of blocks, (electrons!), on the table. Now starting from the right, move the last block to the right a bit. Then move the second block from the
right to join the 1st block moved. And then keep doing that with the remaining blocks in the same way". Then they would say... "Notice how the GAP
between the blocks appears to be moving to the Left! That is the movement of Positive Holes!!". Ggrrrr... Even then at 16, I would pull them up, and
tell them to start talking about 'Electrons', and that drawing 'standards' even 'today', should be changed !!! |O
shakalnokturn:
All I was saying is that IMHO what happens in a battery fits the definition of electrical current flow...
Although the smiley didn't make it obvious enough the internal leakage comment was a form of humour.
In what way would you say that batteries do not fit the definition of "electric current"?
tszaboo:
--- Quote from: GlennSprigg on October 19, 2021, 11:42:36 am ---
--- Quote from: tszaboo on October 19, 2021, 11:19:32 am ---Current is defined as movement of charged particles.
Batteries have a separator. Positive ions go through the separator.
Their negative particles, the electrons go through the wire, because they cannot go through the separator.
There is a movement of positive particles, so there is current in a battery. Its different than the current we usually see in wires and resistors and whatnot, but it is still current.
--- End quote ---
Again, I know what you are saying too, but it's all a matter of 'nomenclature' and ideas used to understand.
Your statement of "Movement of Positive Particles", smacks to me of the 'old' idea, (hence direction arrows etc in Diodes, Transistors, Valves/Tubes),
before they realized that it is actually 'Electron' flow, from -ve to +ve, and not the other way around!! My old Instructors (about 50 years ago!), used
to try and explain it away by talking about... "A movement of Positive Holes", in the reverse direction of actual Electrons! Here's how that worked!!...
"Put a line of blocks, (electrons!), on the table. Now starting from the right, move the last block to the right a bit. Then move the second block from the
right to join the 1st block moved. And then keep doing that with the remaining blocks in the same way". Then they would say... "Notice how the GAP
between the blocks appears to be moving to the Left! That is the movement of Positive Holes!!". Ggrrrr... Even then at 16, I would pull them up, and
tell them to start talking about 'Electrons', and that drawing 'standards' even 'today', should be changed !!! |O
--- End quote ---
It's the definition of current in "The Art of electronics" page 2. There is no "old" or "new" definition of current. You can also look up the definition of Ampere, (and Coulomb) which is defined as X amount of charge in a second, not X amount of electrons.
TimFox:
Once again, I suggest you go to any freshman physics textbook that discusses electrical current.
Examples I remember from freshman physics are:
1. Flow of electrons through a vacuum from cathode to anode in a vacuum tube.
2. Net motion of electrons or holes through a solid.
3. Mechanical motion of charged patches on a moving insulating substrate, such as the belt of a Van de Graaff generator.
4. "Displacement current" through a capacitor dielectric. This is not a new phenomenon, it was discovered in the 19th Century.
5. Net motion of charged ions (both polarities) in a liquid solution.
6. Protons moving in a particle accelerator, accelerated by alternating electrical fields in synchrotron cavities.
etc.
Electrical current was discovered long before the discovery of the electron in the 1897 by J J Cavendish.
There is no need at this late date to redefine positive and negative charges and currents, obsoleting centuries of science (except for WW II-era electronics training in the vacuum-tube era).
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