Author Topic: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?  (Read 2316 times)

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Offline Lord of nothing

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does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« on: May 18, 2018, 04:00:21 pm »
Hi
Now I got access to Dealer Condition from an TV Card Company. The have "just" DVB-C Modulator in there Program.  :o I know DVB-C is the best for Cable but here the most People use DVB-S2 with there Sat Dish so the mostly just support just DVB-S(2).
So are there any DVB-S2 Modulator who are designs to put an (Virtual) Transponder out with Multiple Channels to use existing Hardware?
Thanks
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Offline Scrts

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 04:52:51 pm »
Can you tell us what you want to do? Because I can google "DVB-S2 modulator" and pate you the links with $6000 equipment. Does that help?

The common sense in distribution network is to receive the DVB-S/S2 stream and trans-modulate it to DVB-C. Sometimes it's DVB-T to align with the terrestrial input from the regular antenna for the hotels, but that's about it. There is no need to add such modulator, because you need a set top box with every TV, while -T/-C is native these days.
 

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2018, 05:16:22 pm »
Quote
while -T/-C is native these days.
Sadly no. DVB-T(2) is common but not DVB-C.
I am just wonder why I cant see any equitment.
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Offline Scrts

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2018, 05:35:24 pm »
Quote
while -T/-C is native these days.
Sadly no. DVB-T(2) is common but not DVB-C.
I am just wonder why I cant see any equitment.

Maybe it's worth doing DVB-T then?
There are plenty of DVB-S/S2 modulators, but obviously crazy expensive.
 

Online PA0PBZ

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2018, 06:18:52 pm »
Quote
while -T/-C is native these days.
Sadly no. DVB-T(2) is common but not DVB-C.

That is strange, because here almost every tv that came to market in the last (5?) years has a built in DVB-C tuner.
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Offline bob225

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2018, 07:26:52 pm »
my 2008 Samsung tv has cable and air tuning

The Op wants to inject a signal like cctv or any hdmi source, you can get low end adapters (dvb-c and/or dvb-t) from £100 (110 euro's)

Technomate TM-RF HD (dvb-t)
Icecrypt HDM100

There is a multi protocol modulator what's around 300 euro

Johansson 8202 https://unitrongroup.com/en/products/CAT/DMS/MODST/8202.html

Then you get into the QAM units (Quadrature amplitude modulation)

The higher end ones are multi fpga broadcast quality units with some major processing power

« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 07:34:37 pm by bob225 »
 

Offline Bicurico

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2018, 08:26:15 pm »
Yes there are DVB-S2 modulators. They can take a TS stream at the ASI input and convert it to L Band. There are modulators that convert directly to Ku Band, too.

This means you need at least a DVB receiver that can provide the TS over ASI.
Then you need the modulator. This could be a professional 19" rack sized device. These are expensive as already mentioned. You can nowadays buy cheap DVB-S modulators on ebay.

Another nice alternative is using a test modulator from Dektec, like the DTU215.

Contact me if you need further help.

Regards,
Vitor

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2018, 07:49:32 am »
Quote
That is strange, because here almost every tv that came to market in the last (5?) years has a built in DVB-C tuner.
I talk about an Settop Box. Quite no one use an Internal TV Tuner.  :-DD
Quote
They can take a TS stream at the ASI input and convert it to L Band. There are modulators that convert directly to Ku Band, too.
;D I dont need to Broadcast the Signal over Sat. For "internal" use the Signal got down Convert from KA Band by the LNB into the 900Mhz - 2000Mhz Range (what I know). So the Output from the Modulator just need to be in that range.
Quote
The Op wants to inject a signal like cctv or any hdmi source, you can get low end adapters (dvb-c and/or dvb-t) from £100 (110 euro's)
Yes something like that.  ;D But I also need to put an HBBTV Link to the Data Stream to redirect the Output to an Internal Page.
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Offline bob225

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2018, 10:26:31 am »
Not sure what you mean by HBBTV link you can put a video source over IP and view it in browser or a IP source into an video eg. IP CCTV


What are you trying to do exactly ? is it cable or satellite
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 10:29:05 am by bob225 »
 

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2018, 10:37:49 am »
You know whats HBBTV is? Its just an Link who get transmit over an DVB Stream and the Setop Box is connecting to this link.
DVB-S = Sat  :-+
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2018, 01:16:03 pm »

If you really want to distribute DVB-S2 modulated TS in the L-Band, then this is probably the cheapest solution: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Sencore-DMS-3503B-DVB-S-DVB-S2-Digital-Media-Streamer-with-2-Dektec-DTA-107/272686009573

If you want to CHANGE the TS stream and create your own MUX, including HBBTV (note: this is a standard only used in the EU, as far as I know, so this is why non EU forum members don't know what it is), then you need to:

1) De-Multiplex one or several TS streams
2) Create your own TS streams (for HBBTV, using your own MPEG4 files, etc.)
3) Multiplex the different TS sources into one single TS stream
4) Modulate that TS stream into DVB-S2 with output in the L-band (950MHz-2050MHz)

This requires several professional grade IRD (to receive and demodulate DVB-S/S2/C/T/T2 transmissions and pass them one through ASI-Out), MPEG4 encoder (to be able to feed video/audio like composite video, YUV, VGA or HDMI signals), multiplexer (to create the final TS stream), DVB-S2 modulator (to L-Band) and spectrum analyzer (for monitoring). If you were to buy all of this new, then consider a pricetag from 20.000€ to 100.000€.

It would be cheaper if you just want to re-transmit a TS-stream without changing it. Then you "just" need a professional IRD with ASI-Output and a DVB-S2 modulator. Here is where you can score with second hand Dektec products, as they are reasonably cheaper. Take care to check if they come with software licenses! Without such licenses, you need to program the software yourself, which might be not so easy...

Over the years I collected all these devices (execept DVB-S2 modulator - even second hand devices are still too expensive for me). I have several IRD, modulators for DVB-T, DVB-C and DVB-S, as well as, MPEG2 and MPEG4 encoder. Some of the IRD include a TS multiplexer. I use these devices for test purposes. Using them 24/7 would bring two additional issues: these devices are LOUD, generate HEAT and consume a lot of POWER. You definitely need a climate controlled room to operate them in production environment.

I think it makes no sense at all to distribute DVB-S2 signals in end-user homes. DVB-C offers much better bandwidth at lower cost, DVB-T has less bandwidth but receivers are normally builtin the TV or can be purchased for little money. Unless there is a real reason, I would rather consider distribution over IPTV.

Regards,
Vitor

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2018, 01:43:04 pm »
I know DVB-T, -C Modulator who work in an normal Temp environment.
The point is which Software can generate an Transponder?
I found that: https://www.digital-devices.eu/shop/de/business-tv/qam-sdr-modulator/
I wonder what kind of Software the use to take the TV Channels and put them together in an new arrangement and make an Transponder out of.
A friend of me claim to know how does TV Cable Company do but he refuse to tell my anything ma by because he didn't have any clue.
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2018, 03:05:53 pm »
https://myriadrf.org/blog/digital-video-transmission-using-limesdr-gnu-radio/
Not exactly the cheapest (still way more affordable than alternatives) but I'm sure it's possible to replace the expensive SDR board with a osmo-fl2k and a DIY upconverter.
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Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2018, 03:28:46 pm »
I know the SDR Stuff but why to do in "S" when it works in Hardware to.  :-+
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2018, 03:30:33 pm »
The final TS stream is a MUX:

Imagine you have 5 different MPEG4 streams:

1111
2222
3333
4444
5555

Add to this the data you want to insert in the MUX, i.e. provider name, satellite name, HBBTV, etc.

The MULTIPLEXER will read the 5 + 1 streams through ASI-IN and output the combined MUX as a TS (Transport Stream):

12345D12345D12345D...

This stream is output on ASI-Out and from here it goes to ASI-In of the modulator (DVB-S/C/T).

The MULTIPLEXER, which is what you are looking for, can be implemented on a PC with software (but requires ASI-Input ports or other means of receiving the individual MPEG4 streams).
It can be implemented in hardware, too, normally in 19" rack format.

It is common to have a family of devices which act as multiplexer and modulator: you buy several of those to modulate the different transponders.

Look for Scientific Atlanta D9800. These come as DVB-C modulators with multiplexer - just an example. The same exists for DVB-S2 modulators, but I just happen to have one D9800, so I know what I am talking about. Depending on the version they have several ASI input ports, which you can then combine as you want. Scientific Atlanta now belongs to Cisco, btw.: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/video/product-listing.html#Headend,ContentContributionandDistribution

The reason you don't find Multiplexing software is easy: all of this is rather complex and expensive, to few big companies provide turn key solutions. They don't sell "the software". You buy the whole management software, from multiplexing to encryption to smartcard handling. Example: http://www.easymediasuite.com/products/spts-mpts-software

If you want to build a cost effective solution yourself, again Dektec is your friend: https://www.dektec.com/products/applications/MuxXpert/


Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2018, 03:48:13 pm »
I know the SDR Stuff but why to do in "S" when it works in Hardware to.  :-+
If the logic is implemented in a FPGA rather than a general purpose processor, I call it a "firmware defined radio" but nobody seems to use that term...
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2018, 05:50:06 pm »
https://myriadrf.org/blog/digital-video-transmission-using-limesdr-gnu-radio/
Not exactly the cheapest (still way more affordable than alternatives) but I'm sure it's possible to replace the expensive SDR board with a osmo-fl2k and a DIY upconverter.

This is a solution for amateur radio HAM and is NOT suitable for 24/7 use!

Notice that Software Defined Radios do not provide suitable filtering of harmonics and hence will cause interference in neighbouring frequencies and respective services operating on them.

For test use at home, without connection to transmitting antennas or amplifiers, this may be OK. But connecting such a signal to a distribution network where there certainly is amplification involved, as well as leaking cables, this is a no-go.

The reason professional modulators are so expensive is that they provide propper filtering, so that ONLY the generated signal is output at the desired frequency.

Anyway, what OP is wanting to accomplish doesn't make sense from a practical and economical point of view.

As suggested, the solution would be to distribute the TS as DVB-T or DVB-C.

Any suplementary muxing, addition of further services like HBBTV, etc., will increase the price to a value, which just is not reasonable for home/building use.

The required equipment and software is to be used by TV providers that work on regional or national scale.

Regards,
Vitor

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2018, 08:10:27 pm »
 ;D I am just interested in. There is no actual project with. Sure its nice to play arround but its to expensive for me.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/UT-100C-Transmitter-DVB-T-Tx-only/222448342613?hash=item33caf45655:g:PZsAAOxyGwNTBXLL
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2018, 09:08:40 pm »
Now you are again at low-cost SDR devices...

If you want it REALLY CHEAP:

https://osmocom.org/projects/osmo-fl2k/wiki/Osmo-fl2k
https://hackernoon.com/osmo-fl2k-a-15-dtv-transmitter-fm-radio-hijack-and-gps-spoofing-device-68ac08ba7d76

Mind you, all the warnings about interferences, harmonics, leakage are especially valid for this solution!

Regards,
Vitor

Offline Bicurico

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2018, 09:13:57 pm »
Another nice option for AMATEUR use and DVB-S/S2/C/T signal generation consists in gettin a ADALM-PLUTO SDR (http://www.analog.com/en/design-center/evaluation-hardware-and-software/evaluation-boards-kits/adalm-pluto.html) and using DATV-express (https://www.datv-express.com/CustomPage/Downloads).

This really works, but only with reduced bandwidth, hence the amateur use.

Note that the ADALM-PLUTO is fairly cheap at <100 Euro, but expect up to 3 month waiting in line to get one...

Regards,
Vitor

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2018, 09:52:20 pm »
So I ordered the VGA Adapter Setup what I need for. Maybe in 2-3 Month I can post the results when the arrive.  :-/O
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2018, 08:38:25 am »
Notice that it only works under Linux.

Offline SL4P

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2018, 03:27:46 pm »
Don’t put *any* amplification on the output signal which can get out of your workshop, or youll have all sorts of RF enforcement suits on your doorstep!

If you’re trying to ‘talk’ to a ‘proprietary’ consumer STB, keep in mind you may also need to provide some other data/metadata in the multiplex - or the box may sit there blank until it receives some ancillary data that identifies the services.

There are several clocks and other stream management content that will be expected by the STB, probably on specific stream numbers.

(I haven’t touched any of this for 15 years,  but it’s all back there somewhere,)
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Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2018, 03:44:16 pm »
 ;D dont worry I want play around. Ifs nice to have some people who know more than me.  :-+
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Offline bob225

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Re: does DVB-S2 Modulator exist?
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2018, 04:56:17 pm »
Its not SDR, Qam is used by dvb as well, in this case your only injecting a signal into a receiver eg. a tv or STB so any signals are localised to the feed only
 


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