Author Topic: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper  (Read 3822 times)

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Offline MrOmnos

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Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« on: January 31, 2018, 07:02:01 pm »
So, guys I toner transferred a board and it came out pretty good.



But there is this annoying paper stuck to it which won't go away. I have used tooth and pins to remove it but its too time consuming and the paper is stuck pretty good. Anyone here etched with H2O2 and HCL, does the chemical eat away the paper?
Or I need to remove all of it?
 

Offline microbug

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2018, 09:15:20 pm »
I'm willing to bet that a HCl / H2O2 combination will dissolve paper fairly well. If you're worried about it you could use a bit of water on a cloth to gently scrub away the paper — but I'd just give it a try, toner and copper clad is cheap.
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Offline Yansi

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2018, 09:50:57 pm »
Won't dissolve paper too much.

Don't make PCBs with toner transfer. The results are anything but reliable and barely usable for SMT stuff. Photographic method for diying PCBs is nowdays so cheap and widely available in terms of material and chemistry, I wouldn't never consider anything else.
 

Offline microbug

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2018, 11:26:57 pm »
Won't dissolve paper too much.

Don't make PCBs with toner transfer. The results are anything but reliable and barely usable for SMT stuff. Photographic method for diying PCBs is nowdays so cheap and widely available in terms of material and chemistry, I wouldn't never consider anything else.

For a PCB that size, I'd go with Oshpark. It's cheap and the quality is far, far better than anything you can do at home.
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Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2018, 11:35:15 pm »
No, that makes chlorine gas and etches the copper besides.

You can try >= 50% sulfuric acid, which will hydrolyze the cellulose, turning it to a gel at first, then becoming soft enough to wash away.  Tends to affect the toner, though.

H2O2 + sulfuric acid will etch copper, which might be more pleasant than HCl.

I think HCl is usually recommended just because it's so easy to get.  It's just about the most noxious option -- moreso than FeCl3, which is a salt (if a rather acidic one), rather than pure volatile acid.

Sulfuric acid is (readily?) available as drain opener, check the label.

Remember "do as you oughta, add acid to watta" applies to sulfuric acid.  Muriatic acid doesn't matter because it's already a solution.  Sulfuric acid is rather more aggressive, because it's high concentration (>92% usually), and this precaution must be followed.

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Offline janoc

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2018, 11:52:13 pm »
So, guys I toner transferred a board and it came out pretty good.



But there is this annoying paper stuck to it which won't go away. I have used tooth and pins to remove it but its too time consuming and the paper is stuck pretty good. Anyone here etched with H2O2 and HCL, does the chemical eat away the paper?
Or I need to remove all of it?

You can completely ignore the paper that is stuck to the toner. That will not cause any problems and will get removed when the toner is removed.

The paper in-between the tracks needs to be removed - for me the easiest method was to soak the board in the water and the use a kitchen brush that is used to wash dishes to brush it away. Or an old toothbrush will work too.

The hairs of the brush will get between the traces and will tear apart and remove the wet paper  easily. The toner won't get damaged if you have done the transfer properly but don't apply too much pressure. There is no need for it.

I would avoid chemicals for this because they may both attack the copper or even the toner. Not to mention the danger - concentrated sulfuric acid, as suggested above, is certainly neither easy to get nor something you want to tinker with unless you have a lab training and proper safety equipment. If you spill that it will eat through pretty much anything and heavens help you if you drop the bottle ...

And mixing sulfuric acid, especially concentrated one, with hydrogen peroxide  :o ... just don't  :scared:  That mix is called a Piranha solution for a very good reason - it literally eats away anything organic. Not only the paper on your board but also your fingers, face, whatever it gets on. Oh and mixing it is extremely exothermic and if it gets in touch with organic matter (e.g. grease or solvent) it could cause an explosion due to being a very strong oxidizer. Stay away from this!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha_solution

« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 11:56:13 pm by janoc »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2018, 12:13:59 am »
So, guys I toner transferred a board and it came out pretty good.
You can't really say that until it's etched.

Quote
But there is this annoying paper stuck to it which won't go away. I have used tooth and pins to remove it but its too time consuming and the paper is stuck pretty good.
Don't make the same mistake and try to use that same paper again.
You need one with a better sealed face so the toner doesn't penetrate into the paper but instead sits on top.

There's a bit of trial and error until you get a paper that works good and releases the toner cleanly.
Even when they don't lift away clean, don't hurry the removal and instead drop it all in a saucer of water for a hour or two. Lift carefully and while wet any remaining paper strands can be rubbed away with a finger.

Quote
Anyone here etched with H2O2 and HCL, does the chemical eat away the paper?
Or I need to remove all of it?
Follow janoc's advice and get all the copper that needs be removed clean and exposed to the etchant.


There's some more info on etching in this post and thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/smallest-pitch-for-home-made-pcb-that-is-doable-for-experienced-guys/msg668246/#msg668246
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Offline Yansi

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2018, 12:50:59 am »
Drain cleaners are NaOH, definitely not sulphuric acid.
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2018, 01:11:36 am »
Drain cleaners are NaOH, definitely not sulphuric acid.

Nope, both are used, and sold as, drain cleaners.

I've a 1l bottle of 96% w/w H2SO4 sitting here labelled 'Drain Cleaner' in big letters and also two 500gm bottles of NaOH pellets labelled 'Drain Cleaner'. Both bought for their inate chemical composition, not as drain cleaners.
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2018, 01:17:38 am »
Drain cleaners are NaOH, definitely not sulphuric acid.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 01:28:16 am »
This stuff works a bit better.



But photoresist will probably give better detail.



or make your life easier and buy prelaminated board stock.

 

Offline Dave

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2018, 02:43:25 am »
Don't make PCBs with toner transfer. The results are anything but reliable and barely usable for SMT stuff.
That's just your experience. I've had reliable and consistent results with toner transfer for things like 0,5mm pitch footprints.
Granted, I now just order PCBs from China, but I've made my fair share of PCBs with toner transfer back when PCB fabs weren't so cheap.

I usually soak my boards in water and let the paper get fully saturated. The majority of the paper usually peels off with little to no force. The remnants come off nicely by scrubbing the area with my fingertips. If the toner gets any damage whatsoever while doing it, you need a hotter laminator.
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Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2018, 09:29:14 am »
Be careful mixing chemicals. Especially H2O2 or nitric acid with anything organic. A surprisingly large number of combinations are explosive.   :wtf:
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2018, 10:29:14 am »
If you can afford nitric acid, you can afford commercial PCBs easily. :P

Incidentally, toner itself probably nitrates reasonably well, at least to a low degree.

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Offline janoc

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2018, 10:39:53 am »
If you can afford nitric acid, you can afford commercial PCBs easily. :P

Incidentally, toner itself probably nitrates reasonably well, at least to a low degree.

Tim

Please, don't give such chemistry ideas to newbies here. You may know how to handle the chemicals and what will happen when you mix them but most people don't, especially not the ones asking for ideas.

I still cringe at the idea you have suggested earlier of the OP trying to mix sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide, especially in higher concentrations of either. Granted, you didn't tell him he should mix them concentrated but you didn't say the opposite neither and I can perfectly imagine someone trying that, not knowing any better.

That's literally advising a newbie how to kill themselves, whether by a very likely explosion or getting splashed with the solution reacting violently when mixed.

 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2018, 11:32:01 am »
I'd be surprised if someone is able to find H2O2 of any meaningful concentration for less than Chinese PCBs cost.  3% is rather innocuous stuff, enough to tingle modestly-noble metals or the odd patch of skin, but not especially dangerous.

For those curious, 30% H2O2, concentrated sulfuric acid, and perhaps a dab of catalyst (usually ferric sulfate, IIRC), makes a wonderful solution that devours anything organic.  It's a chemist's favorite last resort, akin to the mechanic's torch: got glassy carbon deposits that just won't come out of your already-hard-to-clean condenser?  Burn the shit out of them with Satan's unholy ballsweat.  Good as new!



Please, don't give such chemistry ideas to newbies here. You may know how to handle the chemicals and what will happen when you mix them but most people don't, especially not the ones asking for ideas.

I still cringe at the idea you have suggested earlier of the OP trying to mix sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide, especially in higher concentrations of either. Granted, you didn't tell him he should mix them concentrated but you didn't say the opposite neither and I can perfectly imagine someone trying that, not knowing any better.

That's literally advising a newbie how to kill themselves, whether by a very likely explosion or getting splashed with the solution reacting violently when mixed.

But, I suppose just as disturbing -- if not moreso -- would be the notion of someone running across some random post, on the internet, and convincing themselves that they should subsequently take an action, which is counter to that "common sense" thing they should've learned from an actual mother and father, or from teachers at school...

Possibly related reading:


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Offline janoc

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2018, 06:10:48 pm »
I'd be surprised if someone is able to find H2O2 of any meaningful concentration for less than Chinese PCBs cost.  3% is rather innocuous stuff, enough to tingle modestly-noble metals or the odd patch of skin, but not especially dangerous.

30% peroxide is still available in many places if you search for hair dresser supplies. Heck, even Amazon sells a half a liter bottle for about $30, with free shipping (won't post links here, who wants it will easily find it - it took me 30 seconds on Google).

But, I suppose just as disturbing -- if not moreso -- would be the notion of someone running across some random post, on the internet, and convincing themselves that they should subsequently take an action, which is counter to that "common sense" thing they should've learned from an actual mother and father, or from teachers at school...

Possibly related reading:


Tim

Sorry, that's complete bull. There is a difference between someone finding a random article on the Internet by googling and then hurting themselves because of ignorance/stupidity and something that has been expressly recommended as a solution to the OPs problem by someone apparently knowledgeable in the matter - i.e. you in this case.

That's just washing hands of responsibility in this case.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 06:15:36 pm by janoc »
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2018, 06:24:46 pm »
I find that washing hands of off responsibility absolutely fine. Everyone should behave on his own behalf. If some is stupid, his fault, not mine or yours.

It seems it is people like you why EU has become what it has become: A pile of stupid paranoia of anything garbage. You seem you would be glad to forbid anything, aren't you?  >:(
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2018, 06:40:37 pm »
janoc, calm down. I think you misread.

Be careful mixing chemicals. Especially H2O2 or nitric acid with anything organic. A surprisingly large number of combinations are explosive.   :wtf:
A very clear warning from Ian.


If you can afford nitric acid, you can afford commercial PCBs easily. :P
Here, Tim is saying it's easier to just order a PCB

Nobody was suggesting to use Nitric. But even if they did, the word "acid" and the scary labels on the bottle should be enough to tell you that it might be dangerous stuff , and that maybe you should take some precautions and do a little research, no?  If they know how to use an internet forum, they probably know how to look for Nitric Acid on wikipedia.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 08:22:49 pm by timelessbeing »
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2018, 10:28:29 pm »
It seems it is people like you why EU has become what it has become: A pile of stupid paranoia of anything garbage. You seem you would be glad to forbid anything, aren't you?  >:(

Can we please have a little less of the ad hominem knocking of country/territory, especially from someone who's obviously so embarrassed by where they come from that they feel the need to conceal it.
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Offline Ampera

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2018, 10:32:01 pm »
Not sure how this would affect this, as I am not familiar with the process, but have you tried burning it?
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2018, 10:54:33 pm »
since toner is a thermoplastic, I would hazard a guess and say burning it would ruin the print. Not to mention oxidize the copper.

I wonder how the OP is getting along...
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2018, 11:02:57 pm »
Drain cleaners are NaOH, definitely not sulphuric acid.

Nope, both are used, and sold as, drain cleaners.

I've a 1l bottle of 96% w/w H2SO4 sitting here labelled 'Drain Cleaner' in big letters and also two 500gm bottles of NaOH pellets labelled 'Drain Cleaner'. Both bought for their inate chemical composition, not as drain cleaners.

Have done a little research. You won't buy a sulfur acid drain cleaner.  At least no where I live. Very unlikely you will find one.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2018, 11:10:54 pm »
We don't know where you live.

I can go get some sulfuric acid drain cleaner right now at hardware store.
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: Does H2O2 and HCL eat away paper
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2018, 11:31:31 pm »
since toner is a thermoplastic, I would hazard a guess and say burning it would ruin the print. Not to mention oxidize the copper.

I wonder how the OP is getting along...

Yeah, I had a feeling.

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