EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: NiHaoMike on April 21, 2015, 02:43:41 am
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I recently heard that those who do precision work (e.g. soldering/reworking SMD) should limit upper body strength training as that may interfere with doing precision work. How valid is that? Is there a tradeoff between being able to move more heavy equipment and working on the fine pitch SMD parts found in such high tech equipment?
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It's totally true, for about an hour after a solid workout. Once your muscles have had some time to rest, it's not a problem. Just remember, stretching is just as important as lifting. If you dont exercise properly you can ruin your body.
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(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/278/559/8ea.jpg)
Strength training can directly result in higher self confidence and becoming more attractive to the opposite sex, which can decrease the likelyhood you will finish your engineering degree. Watch out!
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Weight training has greatly increased my ability to focus afterwards, great for smd assembly. Of course there are tons of other benefits also, everybody on the planet would benefit, just got my sister started.
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I haven't noticed any adverse effects.
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I do some weight lifting, and I wouldn't say it makes any difference.
But I've always been a bit clumsy with precision work anyway.
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Too much strength training can make the fingers thicker which can have detrimental effects on dexterity. It can also have detrimental effects on mental agility as proved by someone I knew who went to fetch an argon cylinder and carried it on his shoulder instead of using the forklift, he complained about the distance of the gas store from the workshop. :-DD |O
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If you don't just do the strength training and have a balanced, healthy workout no. If all you do is strength training yes, and paradoxically can make you weaker than someone with less muscle but a better workout regime.
Just strength training is asking for a heart attack before you're 55 too.
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I find I have the opposite problem: after playing some Theremin (which requires very fast, precise movements, but otherwise very little strength), my hands are too jumpy and jittery to do much of anything else.
I would guess there's a series of limiters, filters, negative feedback, stuff like that -- in the path between motor cortex and muscle. With proper training (and a bit of warm-up or meditation to refocus), I expect you are exerting control over those systems -- which allows you to do very precise movements, or very large movements, but not usually both at the same time.
It's not merely analogous to, but directly the case that, you are changing the characteristics of the servo system; different amounts of open-loop (fast, imprecise; requires lots of practice to pre-compensate) and closed-loop (precise, slower; incorporates proprioception as well as touch, visual, etc. sources) control, as well as the dial on how much gain we're working with (lifting takes strong activation signals, placing SMTs not so much).
I expect if there were a way to measure activation of these systems, someone like Bruce Lee would've absolutely pegged on all counts!
Tim
(Disclaimer: I am not a trainer.)
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I recently heard that those who do precision work (e.g. soldering/reworking SMD) should limit upper body strength training as that may interfere with doing precision work. How valid is that?
Not the least IME.
I only do high rep weight training though, not heavy lifting.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-is-the-most-interesting-eevblog-video/?action=dlattach;attach=87977;image)
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A bit side-track, I do see more young men that drink having shaky hand and finger, than muscular men having shaky motor control.
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The basic fast 'action' tremor is increased for about 48 hours (to a subtle degree) after modest intensity exercise. Pistol shooters/marksmen won't even go up a set of stairs before a big shoot. Most of the tremor can be reduced greatly by hand/arm positioning and feedback esp visual.
Alcohol and beta blockers reduce the tremor and are banned substances in target type competitive sports.
I think the physical and mental benefits of a varied exercise regime far out way the tiny drawbacks. Do it regularly, not seriously and with some friends.
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Alcohol and beta blockers reduce the tremor and are banned substances in target type competitive sports.
I wonder if that's why I like having a pint of beer when soldering :).
Note that I don't do that very often. I normally drink coffee and water.
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Pistol shooting is very good for eye hand coordination training. Easy for those in the US but not so here in the UK any more other than air pistol.
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Never had a problem with strength training.
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Pistol shooting is very good for eye hand coordination training. Easy for those in the US but not so here in the UK any more other than air pistol.
Just join a local club. That's how I kept shooting them even with the stricter laws on keeping handguns at home, I don't keep them at home. But I don't see home defence as a legitimate reason to own a firearm but do have shotguns here so meh, I'm probably a bit of an hypocrite even if I don't own them for that reason.
Ammo's cheaper as a member of a club too.
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Pistol shooting is very good for eye hand coordination training. Easy for those in the US but not so here in the UK any more other than air pistol.
The virtual equivalent, i.e. FPS, provides the same training. Medical research has started to look into using video gaming as treatment of several deseases.
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Alcohol is a depressant, as opposed to caffeine, a stimulant. Alcohol will suppress a tremor, coffee is likely to do the opposite (at least in some measure)
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Hmm, body building and electronics...hmm...nope! A rare combination. :-DD ;)
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I don't think that physical size (height, musculature and so on) do not have much influence on one's ability to work with small electronic parts (of course unless you are trying to reach somewhere in a tight place inside a device).
I've known a guy once, who could easily be described as "biggest dude you've ever seen" - about 2.1m high, like 140kg of weight and he worked out a lot. And his hobby was miniature plane and tank models. He didn't seem to have any difficulty with using very fine tweezers gluing some super-tiny pieces into his models.
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I recently heard that those who do precision work (e.g. soldering/reworking SMD) should limit upper body strength training as that may interfere with doing precision work. How valid is that? Is there a tradeoff between being able to move more heavy equipment and working on the fine pitch SMD parts found in such high tech equipment?
It sounds like someone took the idea that because an ape like the chimpanzee evolved more towards upper body strength at the cost of more precise movements, that somehow the idea would apply to humans who built up upper body strength.
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There may be an age effect also. I am now in my 60s, and find that after an extra heavy workout I have tremors for hours that would prevent fine work. A mild or normal workout causes no problems.
Don't agree with the size of the hands thing. My hands are enormous (palm basketballs easily) and not slender and when not trembling I do fine under the microscope. The best precision worker I ever knew was 6' 4" and weighed about 450 pounds. (about 1.95 and 215 kilos for you metric types). The only problem he ever had with size was getting a bunny suit big enough.
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The only problem he ever had with size was getting a bunny suit big enough.
.? :-DD
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Bunny suit. Full cover clean room dress. Big guys have problems with standard suits. I'm 2.03 and tend to talk with a high voice after a couple of hours suited up.
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Bunny suit. Full cover clean room dress. Big guys have problems with standard suits. I'm 2.03 and tend to talk with a high voice after a couple of hours suited up.
I'm a smidgen taller and have had similar problems*, especially when two piece suits are not appropriate.
*Though not in an electronics setting.
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Bunny suit. Full cover clean room dress. Big guys have problems with standard suits. I'm 2.03 and tend to talk with a high voice after a couple of hours suited up.
I loved the places in China that used plastic booties. I could stretch those around my feet. I would typically tear 2-3 paper ones, before I got one to fit around and stay whole.
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A bit side-track, I do see more young men that drink having shaky hand and finger, than muscular men having shaky motor control.
... and age ...
Older people have less muscle control.
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All I know is that I can't solder 0201 if I've had more than a pint the night before.
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There may be an age effect also. I am now in my 60s, and find that after an extra heavy workout I have tremors for hours that would prevent fine work. A mild or normal workout causes no problems.
Don't agree with the size of the hands thing. My hands are enormous (palm basketballs easily) and not slender and when not trembling I do fine under the microscope. The best precision worker I ever knew was 6' 4" and weighed about 450 pounds. (about 1.95 and 215 kilos for you metric types). The only problem he ever had with size was getting a bunny suit big enough.
Weight lifting, perhaps not. But other heavy duty stuff... may be it would impair his work.
I have friends who practice Chinese "Ku Fu". Particularly the one who's father teaches and runs the ku-fu school. This friend since his childhood, every day, he fist-punch a phone-book nailed to a wall again and again with full force. (That hurts! I've tried) He jam his hands into hot sand. For hours every day.
I wonder if he would feel it if I hit his hands with a hammer.
He may have the precision in holding a solder iron - I doubt he can feel a burning voltage regulator. I am not sure with such lack of fine-touch feeling, if he can work with something as big as a through-hole 1/4 resistor.
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... and age ...
Older people have less muscle control.
And that can be reversed or slowed by weight training as can many problems associated with old age.
Go here for more info...
http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/ (http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/)
Plenty of other information on the net in such regard.
regards
Tim
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... and age ...
Older people have less muscle control.
And that can be reversed or slowed by weight training as can many problems associated with old age.
Go here for more info...
http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/ (http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/)
Plenty of other information on the net in such regard.
regards
Tim
Given how we have out breaks after out breaks of many previously conquered deceases, CDC today has no credibility in my mind.
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Well if you dont take CDC's word for it, just google "benefits of weight lifting for seniors", there's plenty of solid work done on the subject.
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It is nice to have studies confirm your personal experience. It is another of those use it or lose it situations. Clearly working out helps retain muscle tone and control. The workouts should be a mix of strength and skill training.
The specific age effect I was referring to in an earlier post was recovery from a heavy work out. As I remember it, when I was twenty I could do a personal best workout and then do fine work an hour or two later. Now, in my sixties, if I do a personal best workout (its relative - call it the best in the last couple of years) I have tremors for several hours after. It is entirely possible that it not my recovery which is failing, but my memory. Maybe it was several hours when I was twenty also. Or maybe as my tolerance for pain has increased a personal best workout is a higher percentage of my bodies ultimate capability, resulting in a longer recovery.
In any case you can experiment with your own body by paying attention to what you do and how much tremor you have. Many have used this technique to prove to themselves the effects of nicotine, alcohol and caffeine on their body. Most find there is a positive correlation between these three substances and tremor, but there are exceptions, and the curves are not linear for anybody.
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Given how we have out breaks after out breaks of many previously conquered deceases, CDC today has no credibility in my mind.
Are you blaming the CDC for the idiot parents that don't vaccinate their children?
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This is an interesting discussion. I was barely able to write after my gym session today. Recovered within a couple of hours though. The point of strength training is to "exhaust" your muscles and create minor tearing within the muscles causing the muscles to rebuild and adapt to the higher work load. :box: I've noticed this before, and just adapt my activities to non-precise work until I've recovered.
Just for reference I'm approaching 60 years if that has any relevance.
Ozwolf
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Given how we have out breaks after out breaks of many previously conquered deceases, CDC today has no credibility in my mind.
Are you blaming the CDC for the idiot parents that don't vaccinate their children?
Whether parent blindly vaccinate their children (or not) is not the issue. I am blaming the CDC for the incompetence. They have a marketing guy as their head since the first case of Ebola in the USA. Even TB is back. All these diseases that we have vanquished from our soil for decades are now back in the USA, and just down the road in a neighborhood near you in the USA. With such track record of success, whatever they say deserves extra scrutiny and doubt.
This is an interesting discussion. I was barely able to write after my gym session today. Recovered within a couple of hours though. The point of strength training is to "exhaust" your muscles and create minor tearing within the muscles causing the muscles to rebuild and adapt to the higher work load...
I have also learned (from a TV documentary) that the bone is built up by small damages and the bodies' reaction. The repair and calcium build up is what make the bone stronger. Not being a biologist myself, I cannot attest to how true that is.
The friend I was talking about in the last reply - hitting phone books and hot sand all day. Him being my buddy and his father running a "kung fu" school, I was trying to learn some "kung fu" stuff from him for free. So, I was "taught": the purpose of such hitting is to desensitize yourself to the pain as well as building up strength; harden your skin, dampens your nerve, so forth. All in the expectation that "the pain is all on the opponent's end" when it counts.
I am sure hitting the phone book causes some damage - otherwise it wont hurt so much when I tried.
So, for these kind of heavy-duty stuff (not just weight lifting), my logic is, it follows that if your skin and out layer of flesh is harden to the point where pain is hardly felt, it could hardly be helpful with dexterity.
Side note: I found it funny when watching "kung fu" movies with girls having beautiful hands -- The "kung fu" people I've met, the calluses on their hands are so thick it almost looks like quarter-inch pads around the knunkles. I won't hold that pair of hands (however beautiful her face) except if I am wearing leather work gloves.
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Given how we have out breaks after out breaks of many previously conquered deceases, CDC today has no credibility in my mind.
Are you blaming the CDC for the idiot parents that don't vaccinate their children?
Whether parent blindly vaccinate their children (or not) is not the issue.
Actually that is the issue.
I am blaming the CDC for the incompetence.
The CDC is not perfect and of course not totally immune to the pressure from politicians. BUT it is considered the foremost expert institution on infectious disease - and for good reason. It has a proven 70 year history as the center of research and expertise on the etiology, treatment and response to infectious disease.
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Whether parent blindly vaccinate their children (or not) is not the issue.
It is when not vaccinating their children gives the results predicted by organisations like the CDC and goes against their advice.
I am blaming the CDC for the incompetence. They have a marketing guy as their head since the first case of Ebola in the USA. Even TB is back. All these diseases that we have vanquished from our soil for decades are now back in the USA, and just down the road in a neighborhood near you in the USA. With such track record of success, whatever they say deserves extra scrutiny and doubt.
TB is back here too, not because of the actions of organisations like the CDC but due to politicians refusal to listen to the experts they hire for the advice. You won't vaccinate to save money or because you believe YouTube nutjobs against the CDC et al's advice and you get the results they predicted that isn't their incompetence but yours.
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Whether parent blindly vaccinate their children (or not) is not the issue.
It is when not vaccinating their children gives the results predicted by organisations like the CDC and goes against their advice.
I am blaming the CDC for the incompetence. They have a marketing guy as their head since the first case of Ebola in the USA. Even TB is back. All these diseases that we have vanquished from our soil for decades are now back in the USA, and just down the road in a neighborhood near you in the USA. With such track record of success, whatever they say deserves extra scrutiny and doubt.
TB is back here too, not because of the actions of organisations like the CDC but due to politicians refusal to listen to the experts they hire for the advice. You won't vaccinate to save money or because you believe YouTube nutjobs against the CDC et al's advice and you get the results they predicted that isn't their incompetence but yours.
I don't want to turn this into a political discussion. Let us just agree to disagree about the competency and honesty of the current regime.
Let's just get back to padded knunkles on how it affects precision work.