Does the electrical grid acompany network lines?

[ELS122]

When someone connects to the power grid infrastructure, is there an accompanying access to some type of network cables for communication or something like that?

[wraper]

Those are separate things and should not be automatically expected to come together.

[Stray Electron]

  I would help if we knew what country you're in.  But in the US, the answer is no.  Some cable TV lines are run on the same poles as the power lines but the lines are owned by two different companies and you have to buy your services separately.  (To add: you can get network service from many of the cable TV companies in the US.)  On the other hand, many of the network companies are now offering service via a fiber optic cable and in my area, they run their own FO cable and it's buried. 

[IanB]

When someone connects to the power grid infrastructure, is there an accompanying access to some type of network cables for communication or something like that?

This question is ambiguous. The "power grid infrastructure" and the "domestic electricity supply" are different things.

If someone (like a factory or a large industrial plant) connects to the power grid it is quite likely they will have smart metering and a communications link with the network operator that includes things like recording of power factor, and perhaps the ability to do remote load shedding if power demand is high.

[ELS122]

When someone connects to the power grid infrastructure, is there an accompanying access to some type of network cables for communication or something like that?

This question is ambiguous. The "power grid infrastructure" and the "domestic electricity supply" are different things.

If someone (like a factory or a large industrial plant) connects to the power grid it is quite likely they will have smart metering and a communications link with the network operator that includes things like recording of power factor, and perhaps the ability to do remote load shedding if power demand is high.

Yeah I should've calrified, I mean in the US and the power grid infrastructure, not local housing electric supplies. I'm trying to find whatever possible attack vectors someone could have if they were connected to the main power grid. Because of all the suspicious windmill connections in areas you wouldn't expect anyone to build windmills in... Gives you the question if they have some kind of attack vector by doing that.

[jonpaul]

no network

Pwr utils use carrier at very low rate on HT dist and tx lines.

Eas attack:

EMP

j

[ebastler]

I mean in the US and the power grid infrastructure, not local housing electric supplies. I'm trying to find whatever possible attack vectors someone could have if they were connected to the main power grid. Because of all the suspicious windmill connections in areas you wouldn't expect anyone to build windmills in... Gives you the question if they have some kind of attack vector by doing that.

  

No, it does not give me that question.

You mean "they" are building windmills because they want to eavesdrop on you? I can put your mind at ease there; no functionality for that "attack vector" is built in. But don't tell anybody: "They" have installed secret switches where they can turn all the windmills into huge fans and cause massive storms in your area!

[tom66]

Yeah I should've calrified, I mean in the US and the power grid infrastructure, not local housing electric supplies. I'm trying to find whatever possible attack vectors someone could have if they were connected to the main power grid. Because of all the suspicious windmill connections in areas you wouldn't expect anyone to build windmills in... Gives you the question if they have some kind of attack vector by doing that.

Er, what?

A windmill is a windmill.  Many times farmers and other small businesses were sold this equipment because of government grants or incentives.  The fact is most small windmills (<5kW) don't tend to pay back their costs unless heavily subsidised, but in the right climate and with high electricity costs they can make sense as an alternative to PV.   The subsidies are the reason you see a lot of them in areas that don't make much sense. 

But regardless of whether they are practical or not there's no way such a device could "eavesdrop" on you.

[EPAIII]

The "power grid" is nothing more or less than the high voltage, medium voltage, and low voltage power lines that carry the electric power from the machinery that generates it to the point of use (homes and businesses). 60 Hz in the US and 50 Hz in many other places.

Now, the power companies do need to have communication equipment to monitor the state of that grid and to control the various elements (generators, switches, etc.) I would suspect that they use multiple means of communication: microwave, satellite, plain old radio, probably even land (telephone) lines. But, of course even the telephone lines use things like microwave and satellite for long, cross country connections.

But, another thing that I am fairly sure is done is to transmit digital data using those very power transmission lines that form the power grid, or at least parts of it. When I drive under the some local semi-HV power lines my AM radio picks up a lot of static that sounds a lot like digital chatter to me. So the logical conclusion is that those power lines are also carrying digital communication signals that are piggy-backed on the 60 Hz, AC power. This superimposed data signal is probably carrying the monitoring and control signals that the power company uses, as I mentioned above.

Thus, I think that there is no simple answer to the OP's question.

As far as attack vectors, that would be tricky. I mean, these digital signals would not pass through AC transformers very easily. They would need to be stripped of the 60/50 Hz power on one side of the transformer and re-inserted on the other. If the power company had not provided that path, then the first transformer that any malicious hacker's connection encountered would be a dead end. So one could not just connect to a household or business power connection (230 VAC) and expect to receive, alter, and re-transmit those monitoring or control signals.

A hacker would be far more likely to interfere with the control of the power grid by hacking into any internet connections that the power companies are using. One can only hope their engineers are wise enough to guard against any such intrusion. And do consider the fact that the power lines that carry that power for any appreciable distance (like over a kilometer) are virtually all high voltage lines. A hacker attempting to make a connection to them would need a fair amount of equipment to do so. Things like an insulated bucket truck and the equipment that makes the connection would need to be designed for those high voltages. And, of course, the training to properly use them.

Of course anything is possible where technology is involved. Just ask the Germans or Japanese officials who thought their WWII codes were completely secure. I am sure there are malevolent people who are trying to find the weak points in these systems for possible use when they wish.

[ELS122]

I mean in the US and the power grid infrastructure, not local housing electric supplies. I'm trying to find whatever possible attack vectors someone could have if they were connected to the main power grid. Because of all the suspicious windmill connections in areas you wouldn't expect anyone to build windmills in... Gives you the question if they have some kind of attack vector by doing that.

  

No, it does not give me that question.

You mean "they" are building windmills because they want to eavesdrop on you? I can put your mind at ease there; no functionality for that "attack vector" is built in. But don't tell anybody: "They" have installed secret switches where they can turn all the windmills into huge fans and cause massive storms in your area!

No, one would imagine that targeting infrastructure would be to target infrastructure and take it down in case of idk... for example a war.
I'm just asking as a hypothetical because it's a pretty relevant discussion at this time of elevated world conflict. you wouldn't want to ask if it was possible "after" it's done.

The "power grid" is nothing more or less than the high voltage, medium voltage, and low voltage power lines that carry the electric power from the machinery that generates it to the point of use (homes and businesses). 60 Hz in the US and 50 Hz in many other places.

Now, the power companies do need to have communication equipment to monitor the state of that grid and to control the various elements (generators, switches, etc.) I would suspect that they use multiple means of communication: microwave, satellite, plain old radio, probably even land (telephone) lines. But, of course even the telephone lines use things like microwave and satellite for long, cross country connections.

But, another thing that I am fairly sure is done is to transmit digital data using those very power transmission lines that form the power grid, or at least parts of it. When I drive under the some local semi-HV power lines my AM radio picks up a lot of static that sounds a lot like digital chatter to me. So the logical conclusion is that those power lines are also carrying digital communication signals that are piggy-backed on the 60 Hz, AC power. This superimposed data signal is probably carrying the monitoring and control signals that the power company uses, as I mentioned above.

Thus, I think that there is no simple answer to the OP's question.

As far as attack vectors, that would be tricky. I mean, these digital signals would not pass through AC transformers very easily. They would need to be stripped of the 60/50 Hz power on one side of the transformer and re-inserted on the other. If the power company had not provided that path, then the first transformer that any malicious hacker's connection encountered would be a dead end. So one could not just connect to a household or business power connection (230 VAC) and expect to receive, alter, and re-transmit those monitoring or control signals.

A hacker would be far more likely to interfere with the control of the power grid by hacking into any internet connections that the power companies are using. One can only hope their engineers are wise enough to guard against any such intrusion. And do consider the fact that the power lines that carry that power for any appreciable distance (like over a kilometer) are virtually all high voltage lines. A hacker attempting to make a connection to them would need a fair amount of equipment to do so. Things like an insulated bucket truck and the equipment that makes the connection would need to be designed for those high voltages. And, of course, the training to properly use them.

Of course anything is possible where technology is involved. Just ask the Germans or Japanese officials who thought their WWII codes were completely secure. I am sure there are malevolent people who are trying to find the weak points in these systems for possible use when they wish.

So you're saying that power companies modulate power lines carrying millions of watts of power with high frequency digital data? I dont see how that can ever be practical in any world...
How would the power infrastructure ensure that for example; a hard short in the windmill; an intentional hard short on the connection to the grid; some other malfunction doesnt down the grid? there obviously is some type of system that ensures these things down happen. Which is what I'm asking about... how that works.

[tom66]

What makes you think power companies modulate power lines at all with high speed data?  There are some installations in the UK that used to put high frequency carriers on mains electricity feeds to switch over timeswitched meters, and street lights, but most of those installs have gone away because besides very low data rate stuff it isn't practical (it's essentially just 'turn on now' and 'turn off now').   Nowadays RF stuff is used, like smart meters or LoRaWAN.  Powerline ethernet kit might go from one house to another if they are on the same phase, but it won't make it up the street, because the attenuation of the cable is too great at high frequencies, and there's too much interference to reliably send data.

[Ian.M]

https://www.ecmag.com/magazine/articles/article-detail/systems-fiber-optics-energy

[G7PSK]

There has been some concern over Chinese built solar farms giving the Chinese access to the control network of the UK grid. How much of a concern this should be I have no idea.
I do know that the 49.9 M watt solar farm just up the road has its own HV switch gear at a sub station a couple of miles from the solar farm, the HV switch gear operated by the solar far in order to connect with the grid as and when the sun shines, no idea if that could be used for sabotage say by switching in at night and shorting out the local grid or something like that, seems unlikely to me but when the solar farm was built the planning application was put in by a UK firm which granted me permission to photographically document the build but just before the build started the UK firm sold off the whole thing to a Chinese company that rescinded the permission. They then imported labour from China (one of the planning requirements was as much local labour as possible) and when I took photos from outside the site they got very angry and shouted at me in Chinese. 

[DimitriP]

when the solar farm was built the planning application was put in by a UK firm which granted me permission to photographically document the build but just before the build started the UK firm sold off the whole thing to a Chinese company that rescinded the permission. They then imported labour from China (one of the planning requirements was as much local labour as possible) and when I took photos from outside the site they got very angry and shouted at me in Chinese. 

Fascinating! I wonder if that ever made it to the pages of the Register.  Guardian

[G7PSK]

when the solar farm was built the planning application was put in by a UK firm which granted me permission to photographically document the build but just before the build started the UK firm sold off the whole thing to a Chinese company that rescinded the permission. They then imported labour from China (one of the planning requirements was as much local labour as possible) and when I took photos from outside the site they got very angry and shouted at me in Chinese. 

Fascinating! I wonder if that ever made it to the pages of the Register.  Guardian

Not that I know of, in any case the Chinese are heroes to the likes of the Guardian and can do no wrong.

[EPAIII]

What makes me think that? How about RFI when I drive under or along side those lines. It just plain sounds like digital data.

What makes you think power companies modulate power lines at all with high speed data?  There are some installations in the UK that used to put high frequency carriers on mains electricity feeds to switch over timeswitched meters, and street lights, but most of those installs have gone away because besides very low data rate stuff it isn't practical (it's essentially just 'turn on now' and 'turn off now').   Nowadays RF stuff is used, like smart meters or LoRaWAN.  Powerline ethernet kit might go from one house to another if they are on the same phase, but it won't make it up the street, because the attenuation of the cable is too great at high frequencies, and there's too much interference to reliably send data.