Author Topic: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge  (Read 7514 times)

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Offline RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Many of the used phone-batteries (Li-Ion) left fully charged about a year ago have bulged meanwhile.  I didn't know that in long term storage Li-Ion rechargeable should be half empty.  :-\

Searched about this only after noticing this month how most of the old batteries decided to swollen during the last year, while they were just sitting there after they were all fully charged about a year ago.  The Internet says there are some charges that even have a "storage" charging mode.  None of my phones or camera chargers have such a for-storage charging mode.

I'm still not sure if a fully charged Li-Ion is supposed to bulge if left fully vcharged for a long time.  Though, those batteries otherwise survived without problems for 5-10 years discharged (and disconnected).

Anybody else noticed storing Li-Ion fully charged will inflate the battery?

Offline Infraviolet

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2023, 08:02:59 pm »
I always thought the trouble was if you put them in to storage nearly empty, that way they self-drain slowly and have less time before they go below the minimum voltage threshold. I had though the ideal was 75% charged, but anything in the 50% to 100% range was usually ok.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2023, 08:21:06 pm »
~40% seems to be the general consensus for storage. There have been quite a few threads over the years.
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2023, 08:23:21 pm »
Whether it ends up bulging really depends on the battery. But storing one fully charged is a sure way of killing it over time. Every LiPo battery that I stored fully charged died after 2-3 years. The sweet spot for long-term storage depends. Can be anywhere from 40% to 80% SOC depending on battery and studies. Also recharge them to the storage SOC on a regular basis to avoid them getting to a dangerous low SOC by self-discharge.

I have had bulging on a LiPo battery that I used as power back-up in some device. It was a 1000 mAh LiPo IIRC, and the charge current was set at 100 mA. The charging circuit would keep it fully charged at all times (only with a small hysteresis.) The bulging started after about 2 years of operation. It was pretty bad.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2023, 09:09:30 pm »
The Logitech Harmony One remote would keep its Lipo at 100% SOC whilst in its table tray. The battery would swell so badly that in many case, it was necessary to dismantle the remote to get the 'removeable' battery out of its slot. The FAQ said that this was normal behaviour!

P.S. I still have mine. It sits on the side table and only gets charged overnight when the battery indicator shows low. The cheap replacement  battery still lasts more than a week between charges, and after several years (5+ irrc), no bulging.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 09:14:24 pm by Gyro »
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2023, 09:13:45 pm »
The Logitech Harmony One remote would keep its Lipo at 100% SOC whilst in its table tray. The battery would swell so badly that in many case, it was necessary to dismantle the remote to get the 'removeable' battery out of its slot. The FAQ said that this was normal behaviour!

Yep, not surprised. Learned it the hard way as I said above. I would never design a back-up system like this ever again.
 

Offline RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2023, 09:19:41 pm »
Every LiPo battery that I stored...

The ones i have are Li-Ion, kept from former 2G or 3G mobile phones that are now out of use.  Never had LiPo, heard they have to be charged while kept in an anti-explosion protective bag, though they are heavily abused in their day to day life, for example in racing remote controlled models, sumo robots and such.

Are you telling about bulging LiPo because this is the type that happened to bulge from the ones you have, or because LiPo are about the same as Li-Ion?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 09:23:02 pm by RoGeorge »
 

Online thm_w

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2023, 10:28:06 pm »
Every LiPo battery that I stored...

The ones i have are Li-Ion, kept from former 2G or 3G mobile phones that are now out of use.  Never had LiPo, heard they have to be charged while kept in an anti-explosion protective bag, though they are heavily abused in their day to day life, for example in racing remote controlled models, sumo robots and such.

Are you telling about bulging LiPo because this is the type that happened to bulge from the ones you have, or because LiPo are about the same as Li-Ion?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/questions-batterys-lithium/msg3582601/#msg3582601


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/questions-batterys-lithium/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lithium-ion-batt-storage/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lithium-ion-battery-degeneration/
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Offline james_s

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2023, 01:32:14 am »
I thought this was widely known. I've been using LiPo batteries in model airplanes since around 2014 and even then the chargers all had a storage mode to bring the batteries to around 50%. Many laptops have a battery maintenance mode that only charges them up to around 80% to extend the life.
 

Online thm_w

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2023, 02:29:41 am »
Yes its widely known, but outside of "highish-tech" hobby chargers mentioned, I've never seen consumer products that offer to charge your device to 40-60% for storage. I'm sure they exist, its just not very common.

80-85% is to extend the life during regular use, and is not intended for storage or shipping purposes. And even then I'd say a lot less than 50% of products offer that.


https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/491538/why-are-lithium-ion-batteries-stored-at-50-voltage-and-not-a-lower-voltage
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2023, 02:47:02 am »
Yes its widely known, but outside of "highish-tech" hobby chargers mentioned, I've never seen consumer products that offer to charge your device to 40-60% for storage. I'm sure they exist, its just not very common.

I have absolutely never seen that either, outside of, as you said, dedicated chargers. I have one in the lab that can do this and much more.
But in consumer products, never seen it whatsoever.

80-85% is to extend the life during regular use, and is not intended for storage or shipping purposes. And even then I'd say a lot less than 50% of products offer that.

Yep. And even 80% is too high when you keep your batteries charged for extended periods of time (say you use a laptop on AC most of the time, and only occasionally use it on battery.) That's an almost sure way of having your battery die within 2 to max 3 years. If you're lucky.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2023, 06:41:24 am »
Yes 80% is not a storage charge. My point is only that time spent charged above about 50% causes accelerated degradation. Storing at 90% is better than storing at 100%, storing at 80% is better than storing at 90%. The ideal state of charge for maximum lifespan is around 40-50%. I've read that a lot of military equipment charges Li-ion cells to around 4V instead of 4.2V as it results in a significantly extended life at the expense of capacity. This is true of almost all Li-ion chemistries. The only one I know of that is known to tolerate fully charged storage is LiFePO4.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2023, 06:43:36 am »
Yep. And even 80% is too high when you keep your batteries charged for extended periods of time (say you use a laptop on AC most of the time, and only occasionally use it on battery.) That's an almost sure way of having your battery die within 2 to max 3 years. If you're lucky.

I bought my Lenovo X250 new in 2015. I enabled that battery preservation mode that stops charging at 80% right from the start and have only turned it off and fully charged on rare occasions. It spends most of its time plugged in and both batteries still show close to 90% of design capacity. Good quality laptops with good quality (Sony in this case) batteries can last a long time.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2023, 07:52:48 am »
Every LiPo battery that I stored...

The ones i have are Li-Ion, kept from former 2G or 3G mobile phones that are now out of use.  Never had LiPo, heard they have to be charged while kept in an anti-explosion protective bag, though they are heavily abused in their day to day life, for example in racing remote controlled models, sumo robots and such.

Are you telling about bulging LiPo because this is the type that happened to bulge from the ones you have, or because LiPo are about the same as Li-Ion?
Your mobile phone batteries are almost certainly LiPo, because it’s the technology that lends itself to the flat, rectangular battery shape, and because it weighs less.

But you’re not wrong that they’re LiIon, because LiPo is a type of LiIon battery.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2023, 08:27:07 am »
DJI drone batteries will "self-discharge" automatically after about 3-4 days in storage, to around 70% capacity.  This is the battery electronics doing this, using the balance resistors on the battery pack.
 

Offline RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2023, 10:03:54 am »
Thank you all for clarification.  Lesson learned.  Maybe a little late, but we don't know what we don't know.

Next question would be if anybody experimented with puncturing the skin of the battery with a small hole (without touching the internals) in order to deflate it, then covering the small hole with some adhesive tape to seal it against air.

I've seen videos of people doing that (outside, toxic gases and so on), and read online about how they continue to use the batteries for years after deflating them.  Others are saying aged Li-Ion batteries are a fire hazard and to never use them once they bulge, and usually the former will link to a few "classic" videos with intentionally ignited batteries.

I've never seen or heard of igniting Li-Ion in the circle of known people, yet everybody I know uses phones, tablets, laptops, cameras and so on.  :-//

I would like to keep using the bulged batteries for small current circuits, weather station, hallway LED lights with moving sensors, things like that where the low self discharge rate of Li-Ion will make them last much longer than the NiMH cells.

Anybody tried to deflate the Li-Ion then keep using them?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 10:08:02 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2023, 10:10:28 am »
With the cost of a new Li-Polymer battery (1000mAh is what, about 5 euros?) I would not bother.  There is good chance the cell will fail and damage something worth way more than that.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2023, 11:15:41 am »
I always thought the trouble was if you put them in to storage nearly empty, that way they self-drain slowly and have less time before they go below the minimum voltage threshold.

Only if the cells are faulty / total crap. Normally, self discharge is nearly zero already at 50%SoC and just gets lower. Case in point, when I measured self-discharge in dozens of cells, I deliberately discharged cells to tad below 0% SoC but they did not lose any more charge during 1.5 year test period.

Quote
I had though the ideal was 75% charged, but anything in the 50% to 100% range was usually ok.

75% is not ideal. Between 30-50% could be considered ideal IMO. Although 75% is not that bad, some cell types may have increased calendar fading compared to 50%.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2023, 06:32:16 pm »
Next question would be if anybody experimented with puncturing the skin of the battery with a small hole (without touching the internals) in order to deflate it, then covering the small hole with some adhesive tape to seal it against air.

Yes people have tried this. There is not really any point, when the battery has puffed up it has been damaged, poking a hole in it certainly isn't going to improve safety. These batteries are known for catching fire if abused, do you really want to risk burning your house down?
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2023, 08:29:13 pm »
Yep. And even 80% is too high when you keep your batteries charged for extended periods of time (say you use a laptop on AC most of the time, and only occasionally use it on battery.) That's an almost sure way of having your battery die within 2 to max 3 years. If you're lucky.

I bought my Lenovo X250 new in 2015. I enabled that battery preservation mode that stops charging at 80% right from the start and have only turned it off and fully charged on rare occasions. It spends most of its time plugged in and both batteries still show close to 90% of design capacity. Good quality laptops with good quality (Sony in this case) batteries can last a long time.

Haven't had that luck with Lenovo laptops myself.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2023, 08:31:10 pm »
Next question would be if anybody experimented with puncturing the skin of the battery with a small hole (without touching the internals) in order to deflate it, then covering the small hole with some adhesive tape to seal it against air.

Yes people have tried this. There is not really any point, when the battery has puffed up it has been damaged, poking a hole in it certainly isn't going to improve safety. These batteries are known for catching fire if abused, do you really want to risk burning your house down?

Yeah, this is one of those horrible suggestions that should come with a mention in large and bold: DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2023, 05:19:25 am »
Could reuse the cell in some outdoor application where it won't be much of a big deal if it catches fire.
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Offline Miti

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2023, 12:19:26 pm »
I've never seen or heard of igniting Li-Ion in the circle of known people, yet everybody I know uses phones, tablets, laptops, cameras and so on.  :-//

I would like to keep using the bulged batteries for small current circuits, weather station, hallway LED lights with moving sensors, things like that where the low self discharge rate of Li-Ion will make them last much longer than the NiMH cells.

Anybody tried to deflate the Li-Ion then keep using them?

You don’t want to be the first one to experience this in your circle of people.
Besides the toxic gases, which I understand are quite nasty, metallic lithium and oxygen don’t go well together. In a new battery there shouldn’t be any lithium in metallic form but in an old used and abused battery, you could have some deposited on the electrodes. Letting oxygen inside the pouch is not the best thing you can do. Depending on the size of the batteries that could be a problem.
I have multiple RC fliers and I had puffed up batteries of various sizes over time and I never tried to puncture one intentionally, I just continued to use the least puffy for some light testing and disposed of them when  they were too puffy.

Edit: You may ask what’s too puffy? When the pouch is flapping in the wind when the battery is at room temperature, it is not too puffy for me. When it becomes a balloon all the time, it’s time to retire that battery.
Another thing, all the RC Li chargers have a storage mode that brings the batteries to about 3.8V.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 12:29:11 pm by Miti »
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Offline Miti

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2023, 12:44:51 pm »
Only if the cells are faulty / total crap. Normally, self discharge is nearly zero already at 50%SoC and just gets lower. Case in point, when I measured self-discharge in dozens of cells, I deliberately discharged cells to tad below 0% SoC but they did not lose any more charge during 1.5 year test period.

I just found some old Varta Li-Po batteries in a pile of junk at work after an inventory cleanup. Brand new, never used but made in 2009. They all measure zero volts at the output of the protection board, the battery itself between 2.2 and 2.3V. They are small 300mAh. I fully changed one and checked its capacity down to 3V at 50mA and at 100mA. The result in both cases was around 350mAh. Not bad for a 14yo battery.
I wouldn’t normally recharge a big battery that discharged this low, but at this size I don’t think there’s any risk.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 12:01:56 am by Miti »
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Offline RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2023, 12:47:29 pm »
Maybe I should just let them be without puncturing the bulged ones.  The reason to deflate them is mostly to make them fit back into whatever device they use to power.  DIY circuits can be made with enough space for any battery, so no need to deflate them.

Another question, I've noticed these days a case where a 15+ years 1750mAh Li-Ion accumulated about 30% more charge when charged at a very slow peace, at 0.01C than when charged normally.  Charging them that slow won't heat the battery, and would simplify the electronics a lot for a multi channel CC-CV charger I want to build.

Would it be a bad idea to charge a Li-Ion very slow, for 3-5 days non-stop using CC-CV?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 12:53:02 pm by RoGeorge »
 


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