Author Topic: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge  (Read 7501 times)

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Online magic

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2023, 09:46:35 am »
To be fair, I always thought that continuing to use already failing Li-ion batteries is a bit nuts, but I'm curious how nuts it is exactly because there doesn't seem to be much reliable information on that ;)


As for the rest, it's just your typical American leftoid behavior. Hiding posts of such users would deprive me of some entertainment.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2023, 10:37:16 am »
How did Li-Po cells turn into politics?   |O

Before a Li-Po cell fails explosively (e.g. due to overcharge) it tends to bulge up in much the same manner.  I would not be surprised to see these batteries burst and burn, but maybe it turns out that the slower version of this process results in a bad cell, but not an exploding cell.  I'd still argue it's way more of a hazard than a normal cell, and I can't blame a repair shop for not wanting to be involved.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #77 on: January 19, 2023, 09:29:39 pm »
(I assume enough intelligence on the part of our readers to understand that this means the correct bin for the item being disposed of. …ok, fair enough, given that this dude wants to reuse it, it probably does need to be stated explicitly!) Put used batteries into the battery recycling bin.

Would you kindly fuck off?
Hold your innuendos for yourself.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

You are on my ignored users list.
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Offline tooki

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #78 on: January 19, 2023, 09:30:48 pm »
How did Li-Po cells turn into politics?   |O
Well, in reality, it didn’t, other than one cryptic, nonsensical remark by magic.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2023, 11:44:01 pm »
How did Li-Po cells turn into politics?   |O

Before a Li-Po cell fails explosively (e.g. due to overcharge) it tends to bulge up in much the same manner.  I would not be surprised to see these batteries burst and burn, but maybe it turns out that the slower version of this process results in a bad cell, but not an exploding cell.  I'd still argue it's way more of a hazard than a normal cell, and I can't blame a repair shop for not wanting to be involved.

Overcharged cells will puff up before they burn, but it's also common for cells to puff up due to normal wear and degradation. Lots of guys keep flying slightly puffed cells, haven't seen one burn up yet, so it's not necessarily dangerous, but a puffed cell is definitely not going to perform like new either. If it is severely puffed I would discharge and dispose of it.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #80 on: January 20, 2023, 08:10:45 am »
Slight puffing seems to happen to almost any old cell. The difficulty is defining what is too much and how dangerous it is. I have never seen good data about this, it's all hand-waving, even among experts.

With hard-cased cells like 18650, you just can't see the internal pressure rise equivalent to this "slight puffing". When the pressure rises too much, the safety went (CID) disconnects the internal cell from the terminals, so the choice is made for you and the level of "puffing" hidden.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 08:12:59 am by Siwastaja »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #81 on: January 20, 2023, 09:00:57 pm »
Slight puffing seems to happen to almost any old cell. The difficulty is defining what is too much and how dangerous it is. I have never seen good data about this, it's all hand-waving, even among experts.

With hard-cased cells like 18650, you just can't see the internal pressure rise equivalent to this "slight puffing". When the pressure rises too much, the safety went (CID) disconnects the internal cell from the terminals, so the choice is made for you and the level of "puffing" hidden.

Yep and yep.

All in all, when we finally switch to a different battery technology on a large scale, I won't miss Li-ion. One bit.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #82 on: January 20, 2023, 09:10:25 pm »
I'm not too confident that we will switch to a different battery tech. I recall reading that the properties of lithium are about as ideal as we're going to get as far as energy density, there is nowhere else to go up the periodic table, lithium is already the lightest metal. I'm sure batteries will continue to improve and we will probably see other types with other advantages but in terms of raw energy density I'm skeptical.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2023, 08:26:13 am »
All in all, when we finally switch to a different battery technology on a large scale, I won't miss Li-ion. One bit.

Yeah, but to be fair, having seen the transition from lead acid, NiCd and NiMH to li-ion, I won't miss any of them. One bit.
 

Online IanB

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2023, 08:55:23 am »
All in all, when we finally switch to a different battery technology on a large scale, I won't miss Li-ion. One bit.

Yeah, but to be fair, having seen the transition from lead acid, NiCd and NiMH to li-ion, I won't miss any of them. One bit.

The major problem I have with Li-ion is the way the batteries tend to be embedded within the device and charged in place, rather than being removable. This is why I still very much like devices that take AA or AAA cells, since when the batteries are low I can simply swap them for fresh ones and put the depleted ones on charge. With lithium batteries, when the battery is low I have to plug the device into a charger and wait an hour or more for it to recharge. And when the battery wears out the whole device is often thrown away.

I understand that some very small devices take advantage of the embedded battery for the form factor, but I still find the overall trend to be a loss of convenience.
 

Offline MadScientist

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Re: Don't keep fully charged Li-Ion in long term storage, they tend to bulge
« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2023, 09:14:03 am »
Slight puffing seems to happen to almost any old cell. The difficulty is defining what is too much and how dangerous it is. I have never seen good data about this, it's all hand-waving, even among experts.

With hard-cased cells like 18650, you just can't see the internal pressure rise equivalent to this "slight puffing". When the pressure rises too much, the safety went (CID) disconnects the internal cell from the terminals, so the choice is made for you and the level of "puffing" hidden.

Yep and yep.

All in all, when we finally switch to a different battery technology on a large scale, I won't miss Li-ion. One bit.

LiTO is probably the safest li tech it doesn’t even need a BMS.

BUT after that we’re a long way from alternatives and any high capacity energy store has risks.
EE's: We use silicon to make things  smaller!
 


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