Poll

Has the thread on dowsing changed your point of view?

Yes, I thought dowsing worked, but now I'm not convinced it does.
1 (1.3%)
Yes, I thought dowsing didn't work and now I think it does.
4 (5.1%)
No, I always thought dowsing was woo woo and still do.
64 (82.1%)
No, I believed dowsing worked before and still do.
9 (11.5%)

Total Members Voted: 78

Author Topic: Dowsing  (Read 6264 times)

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Online Zero999

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Dowsing
« on: December 19, 2017, 06:04:06 pm »
If you want to participate in this poll, please read the first five or so pages, of the thread linked below:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/scientist-finds-uk-water-companies-use-'magic'-to-find-leaks/

Please note: this thread is not a discussion of whether or not dowsing works! I'm more interested in whether the thread has changed anyone's mind. If you want to discuss the efficacy of dowsing, please do so in the other thread.
 

Offline ChrisLX200

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2017, 06:06:39 pm »
You're joking, right? Keep the BS in one thread. Mr. Wolf is a troll of the first order.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2017, 06:10:28 pm »
You're joking, right? Keep the BS in one thread. Mr. Wolf is a troll of the first order.
Trolls typically like to tip over the first domino and watch the rest go on their own, occasionally fanning the flames. That's not what I see in the thread. Considerable effort is put in to keep the shit cart rolling, so there seems to be a fair bit of personal investment.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2017, 07:10:30 pm »
First checking the poll results plainly shows this is the non believers thread.  :scared:

Edit
Added 'results'.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 08:14:13 pm by tautech »
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Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2017, 07:30:31 pm »
First checking the poll plainly shows this is the non believers thread.  :scared:
What makes you say that? Because I, someone who thinks dowsing is nonsense, posted it or have I used the wrong wording?

If you look at the options, I've put just as many believer as cynic options.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2017, 08:04:30 pm »
First checking the poll plainly shows this is the non believers thread.  :scared:
What makes you say that? Because I, someone who thinks dowsing is nonsense, posted it or have I used the wrong wording?

If you look at the options, I've put just as many believer as cynic options.
You have and that needs be commended.

But the poll results at this time speak for themselves.
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Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2017, 08:10:20 pm »
First checking the poll plainly shows this is the non believers thread.  :scared:
What makes you say that? Because I, someone who thinks dowsing is nonsense, posted it or have I used the wrong wording?

If you look at the options, I've put just as many believer as cynic options.
You have and that needs be commended.

But the poll results at this time speak for themselves.
The thread is neutral, as I could possibly make it.

The results of the poll will reflect the consensus of this forum. I'm more interested in whether anyone has changed their view on dowsing, than the number of believers vs doubters.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2017, 08:11:26 pm »
First checking the poll plainly shows this is the non believers thread.  :scared:
What makes you say that? Because I, someone who thinks dowsing is nonsense, posted it or have I used the wrong wording?

If you look at the options, I've put just as many believer as cynic options.
You have and that needs be commended.

But the poll results at this time speak for themselves.

I don't follow your reasoning tautech. Results are results and the thread is looking for an answer, not to embarrass anyone nor demonstrate anything else other than how the other thread has changed or not changed people's views.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2017, 08:15:06 pm »
I don't follow your reasoning tautech. Results are results and the thread is looking for an answer, not to embarrass anyone nor demonstrate anything else other than how the other thread has changed or not changed people's views.
I think he's just saying that there's more non-believers here.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2017, 08:24:15 pm »
Somebody please lock this thread!  |O

... and the other one!  :palm:
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 08:28:09 pm by Gyro »
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Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2017, 08:35:31 pm »
I don't follow your reasoning tautech. Results are results and the thread is looking for an answer, not to embarrass anyone nor demonstrate anything else other than how the other thread has changed or not changed people's views.
I think he's just saying that there's more non-believers here.
That may be true, but it wasn't the main focus of the thread. I want to see if having the debate has actually changed anyone's view on dowsing, regardless of which the side of the argument they're on.

Somebody please lock this thread!  |O

... and the other one!  :palm:
No one's making you read this!

Don't like it? Ignore it.
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2017, 08:55:12 pm »
I just don't see the point of opening up a new thread to poll people on something that has already got a 25 page, mostly three person argument on it.

The only reason I can see for you having opened another thread is to gratify yourself with some sort of public aproval of your own opinion. People either believe in it or they don't The only outcome can be people from one camp trying to sway the other - and you already have a thread for that. It just drags down the level of the forum!
Chris

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2017, 09:03:05 pm »
I just don't see the point of opening up a new thread to poll people on something that has already got a 25 page, mostly three person argument on it.

The only reason I can see for you having opened another thread is to gratify yourself with some sort of public aproval of your own opinion. People either believe in it or they don't The only outcome can be people from one camp trying to sway the other - and you already have a thread for that. It just drags down the level of the forum!
It's not three people in the other thread. It's more of a tag team of people versus a holdout with horrible form.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2017, 09:06:58 pm »
Ok, I get that - and a poll helps how? The holdout is going to magically see the error of his ways?  ::)

I thought we didn't feed trolls here!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:11:42 pm by Gyro »
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2017, 09:11:53 pm »
Ok, I get that - and a poll helps how? The holdout is going to magically see the error of his ways?  ::)
It's interesting to see that nobody has moved on his or her opinion, though it's utterly unsurprising.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2017, 09:12:02 pm »
Have you considered that many have followed the thread but have not posted? Have you considered that the idea of this thread is to assess what the effects of the other thread might be and whether or not it is a good idea to have threads like the dowsing thread on this forum?
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2017, 09:17:17 pm »
Quote
Have you considered that the idea of this thread is to assess what the effects of the other thread might be and whether or not it is a good idea to have threads like the dowsing thread on this forum?

In that case, there should be a vote option for 'This dowsing thread brings down the tone of the Forum' or similar wording! Please add it.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:18:53 pm by Gyro »
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2017, 09:23:56 pm »
If you want to participate in this poll, please read the first five or so pages, of the thread linked below:

Sorry, I made it as far as the mention of a divining rod.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2017, 09:25:39 pm »
Have you considered that many have followed the thread but have not posted? Have you considered that the idea of this thread is to assess what the effects of the other thread might be and whether or not it is a good idea to have threads like the dowsing thread on this forum?
I see no need for such an item. I considered other options such as: unsure or possibly, but didn't want to complicate it any further. You've voiced your disapproval and it'd been noted.

Have you considered that many have followed the thread but have not posted? Have you considered that the idea of this thread is to assess what the effects of the other thread might be and whether or not it is a good idea to have threads like the dowsing thread on this forum?
That was the idea.  I saw one or two people, who seemed to be recondidering whether it worked or not and would like to hear from them, but the debate hasn't changed anyone's view, then was it worth having in the first place?

I was tempted to just have a simple yes or no answer to the question, but thought that wouldn't have given enough information.

EDIT:
Wahoooo! Someone's changed their view. Good for them. There's no shame in it. I've changed my view on things before, that's OK.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2017, 09:34:59 pm »
I see no need for such an item. I considered other options such as: unsure or possibly, but didn't want to complicate it any further. You've voiced your disapproval and it'd been noted.

Of course you don't. My disapproval hasn't been noted in any statistical way, neither has that of anyone else feeling the same way. Five options so much harder for people to consider than four? Without it, the poll looks valid, with it, the other votes could well be so far down in the noise that they are not statistically valid. This is a technical forum!

Damn, I'm actually beginning to care about this!  :palm:
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:42:16 pm by Gyro »
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Offline Freelander

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2017, 10:02:07 pm »


Damn, I'm actually beginning to care about this!  :palm:

 :-DD

 Made my day Chris, I nearly spat me tea out  :clap:
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2017, 10:05:26 pm »
I see no need for such an item. I considered other options such as: unsure or possibly, but didn't want to complicate it any further. You've voiced your disapproval and it'd been noted.

Of course you don't. My disapproval hasn't been noted in any statistical way, neither has that of anyone else feeling the same way. Five options so much harder for people to consider than four? Without it, the poll looks valid, with it, the other votes could well be so far down in the noise that they are not statistically valid. This is a technical forum!

Damn, I'm actually beginning to care about this!  :palm:

What about those who may have not changed their view on dowsing and think discussing it is a waste of time? I could have allowed multiple choices, but that wouldn't stop someone from selecting conflicting ones.

Someone else might mention another option, not listed above, followed by many more!

The focus of the poll wasn't about whether or not we should be discussing subjects such as dowsing, but if having such a debate actually changes anyone's opinion. The results of the poll will hopefully help people make up their own minds, as to whether such discussions are worthwhile or not.

If you feel that strongly about it, then you're always free to start your own poll!
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2017, 10:11:45 pm »
Quote
If you feel that strongly about it, then you're always free to start your own poll!

Not on your life, I'm not propagating this folly any further!

Just be aware that any poll without any sort of 'null' option can't be statistically valid, and is as a result, pointless!

P.S.
Quote
What about those who may have not changed their view on dowsing and think discussing it is a waste of time?

Yes, that will do nicely! (you can even leave out the second half if you want  :))
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 10:25:20 pm by Gyro »
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Online rstofer

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2017, 10:38:31 pm »
The poll will be skewed in any event.  The 'safe' answer is "it doesn't work and I never thought it did".  That's an easy choice to make.  Further, there is bound to be a certain amount of ridicule for those who believe that it does work.  There will be even more ridicule for those who claim to have had success using such a technique.  Those folks will probably refrain from voting.

And yet the utility company still allows, even encourages, the use of dowsing and, presumably, they find it worthwhile.  After all, they're in the business and time is money.

The results are what they are but the poll is not statistically valid.  People lie to pollsters.  Remember the last election?  The polls had voters saying one thing but voting another.  Or the poll only measured 'blue' areas.  It is not valid to simply sample New York and California - at this moment in time, they are political outliers.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2017, 10:41:36 pm »
The poll will be skewed in any event.  The 'safe' answer is "it doesn't work and I never thought it did".  That's an easy choice to make.  Further, there is bound to be a certain amount of ridicule for those who believe that it does work.  There will be even more ridicule for those who claim to have had success using such a technique.  Those folks will probably refrain from voting.

And yet the utility company still allows, even encourages, the use of dowsing and, presumably, they find it worthwhile.  After all, they're in the business and time is money.

The results are what they are but the poll is not statistically valid.  People lie to pollsters.  Remember the last election?  The polls had voters saying one thing but voting another.  Or the poll only measured 'blue' areas.  It is not valid to simply sample New York and California - at this moment in time, they are political outliers.
Voting is anonymous, so there's no fear of ridicule, other than generic comments.

The rest of your comments have been addressed in the other thread. No need to rehash it here.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2017, 10:41:58 pm »
Just try it, for the lolz
Take a couple coat hangers or #14AWG wire bent and put them in both hands and go for a walk.

I thought dowsing was a load of bullshit, and so I thought, well, I'll just try it.
To my surprise I noticed the coat hangers can subtlety move and be consistent about something, that is they behave the same over the same spot in a room.
The stupid wires will move and cross over each other, like an "X".

I did more research and they think it's ideomotor movements, or a person tilting/leaning to one side causing the wires to rotate. It's very low friction.
-> Subconscious mind tilting your wrists causes the wires to rotate.

I still think dowsing is a load of bullshit, but the dowsing rods can be made to move and it sure is weird seeing that.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2017, 10:44:57 pm »
I love how this thread is quickly becoming a copy of the other one. Now it's two turd tornadoes!
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2017, 10:59:59 pm »
Well isn't that exactly what you expected when you set it up?  :palm:  >:(
Chris

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2017, 11:05:38 pm »
Well isn't that exactly what you expected when you set it up?  :palm:  >:(
I guess you're not talking to me?
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2017, 11:48:29 pm »
Quote
If you feel that strongly about it, then you're always free to start your own poll!

Not on your life, I'm not propagating this folly any further!

Just be aware that any poll without any sort of 'null' option can't be statistically valid, and is as a result, pointless!

P.S.
Quote
What about those who may have not changed their view on dowsing and think discussing it is a waste of time?

Yes, that will do nicely! (you can even leave out the second half if you want  :))

That's not a null option, which would be more along the lines of "I don't know whether dowsing works or not and I'm not sure whether my viewpoint has shifted significantly or not"
 

Offline VK5RC

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2017, 12:45:56 am »
An interesting survey - from my understanding "logical" thought is often rarely that - often a rationalisation of what you believed/wanted in the first place. Polarisation or entrenchment of opinion often results from these topics. I recall a study  of timing within the central nervous system showing emotional areas (Limbic) light up well before rational (Frontal) areas in decision making. So if you want to get someone to change their mind offer sex, food or money! HiHi.
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2017, 05:00:03 am »
The results of this poll are not surprising in any way I am afraid. This is the same old tired story of those who believe will not be swayed by one argument. It sometimes takes many times confronting sacred beliefs until the person starts to actually think about their position. It can take many pokes or prods until someone starts to even want to think differently, These kinds of debates rarely change a person who is entrenched. It is usually when a person is starting to question their beliefs that they will actually listen opposing views.

The fact that our conversation has actually made a person think is a good thing and why I bother with this BS.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 08:29:56 pm by Lightages »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2017, 09:28:58 am »
Well isn't that exactly what you expected when you set it up?  :palm:  >:(
I guess you're not talking to me?

Oops, sorry Mr. Scram.  :-[
Chris

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Offline HalFET

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2017, 09:32:57 am »
Dowsed my way to option 3  :-DD
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2017, 07:33:43 am »
I always figured it was woo woo but I would be genuinely curious to be proven wrong and be explained how/why it works. 
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2017, 07:52:19 am »
I always figured it was woo woo but I would be genuinely curious to be proven wrong and be explained how/why it works.
This is apparently impossible. You're either convinced it works, or you're not open minded or a pseudo-skeptic  ::)
 

Offline gocemk

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2017, 08:07:47 am »
If you want to participate in this poll, please read the first five or so pages, of the thread linked below:

Sorry, I made it as far as the mention of a divining rod.

 :-DD
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2017, 09:00:15 am »
So far three out of 49 have changed their opinion. Interestingly two out of three have changed their view in favour of dowsing. I wonder whether it's because the proponents of dowsing have made a more compelling argument or if it's out of sympathy, as they might appear to have been ganged up on?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2017, 09:14:42 am »
So far three out of 49 have changed their opinion. Interestingly two out of three have changed their view in favour of dowsing. I wonder whether it's because the proponents of dowsing have made a more compelling argument or if it's out of sympathy, as they might appear to have been ganged up on?
That surprised me too.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2017, 12:36:11 am »
So far three out of 49 have changed their opinion. Interestingly two out of three have changed their view in favour of dowsing. I wonder whether it's because the proponents of dowsing have made a more compelling argument or if it's out of sympathy, as they might appear to have been ganged up on?
That surprised me too.
It just goes to show that being logical and rational doesn't always convince people of anything.
 

Offline hermit

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2017, 02:49:18 am »
So far three out of 49 have changed their opinion. Interestingly two out of three have changed their view in favour of dowsing. I wonder whether it's because the proponents of dowsing have made a more compelling argument or if it's out of sympathy, as they might appear to have been ganged up on?
Or because you can't see who ticked what box?  Some software forums let you choose to show who voted what.  This is the internet.  You expect honest answers to an anonymous poll?
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2017, 10:32:15 am »
I do not see all valid answers offered in poll. Variants imply beliefs, not knowledge. Perhaps need study a little:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism

Quote
Empiricism is a theory that states that knowledge comes only or primarily from sensory experience.[1] It is one of several views of epistemology, the study of human knowledge, along with rationalism and skepticism. Empiricism emphasizes the role of empirical evidence in the formation of ideas, over the idea of innate ideas or traditions;[2]

As first step from dark ages practicing empiricism may suffice.




 

Offline Tepe

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2017, 10:55:09 am »
I do not see all valid answers offered in poll.
The poll contains the four possible variations of believed dowsing works/doesn't work before/after the discussion in the thread.
ceterum censeo systemd-inem esse delendam
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2017, 01:54:27 pm »
I hoped an anonymous poll would yield more honest answers, than one where everyone is named.

It's not practical to list all possible view points, as there will be hundreds. The main purpose of the poll was to determine if the debate actually changed anyone's mind.

It's also possible to change your vote, in this poll, if you like.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2017, 03:34:52 pm »
I hoped an anonymous poll would yield more honest answers, than one where everyone is named.

It's not practical to list all possible view points, as there will be hundreds. The main purpose of the poll was to determine if the debate actually changed anyone's mind.

It's also possible to change your vote, in this poll, if you like.

It not about "changing mind" but acquiring scientifically sound knowledge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiment

Quote
An experiment is a procedure carried out to support, refute, or validate a hypothesis.
...
A child may carry out basic experiments
...
In the scientific method, an experiment is an empirical procedure that arbitrates competing models or hypotheses.[2][3] Researchers also use experimentation to test existing theories or new hypotheses to support or disprove them.

So there are options outside of beliefs:

a) I experimentally confirmed phenomenon.
b) I failed to experimentally confirm phenomenon.

Both subject to limitations of specific experimenter.

Note that since nature of phenomenon is not (fully) understood controlled experiment is impossible. This does still leave other sound options:  Natural, field experiments and observational study. Important is not to forget ethics. Wikipedia article will provide further details for curious mind.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2017, 04:51:10 pm »
Wow, suddenly a huge spike in dowsing believers. Did this get posted somewhere, or did someone make a number of accounts or something?
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2017, 05:56:29 pm »
I hoped an anonymous poll would yield more honest answers, than one where everyone is named.

It's not practical to list all possible view points, as there will be hundreds. The main purpose of the poll was to determine if the debate actually changed anyone's mind.

It's also possible to change your vote, in this poll, if you like.

It not about "changing mind" but acquiring scientifically sound knowledge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiment

Quote
An experiment is a procedure carried out to support, refute, or validate a hypothesis.
...
A child may carry out basic experiments
...
In the scientific method, an experiment is an empirical procedure that arbitrates competing models or hypotheses.[2][3] Researchers also use experimentation to test existing theories or new hypotheses to support or disprove them.

So there are options outside of beliefs:

a) I experimentally confirmed phenomenon.
b) I failed to experimentally confirm phenomenon.

Both subject to limitations of specific experimenter.

Note that since nature of phenomenon is not (fully) understood controlled experiment is impossible. This does still leave other sound options:  Natural, field experiments and observational study. Important is not to forget ethics. Wikipedia article will provide further details for curious mind.

This thread was never about science, just people's opinions/perceptions, of dowsing. If it were about the science of dowsing, there would be no need for a poll.

Wow, suddenly a huge spike in dowsing believers. Did this get posted somewhere, or did someone make a number of accounts or something?
Yes, I've considered the possibility that sockpuppetry could be interfering with the results. I suppose that's just one of the potential inaccuracies in poll, especially one about something which some people are passionate about.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2017, 10:46:41 pm »
This thread was never about science, just people's opinions/perceptions, of dowsing. If it were about the science of dowsing, there would be no need for a poll.

For pseudoskeptics yes, it is all about their opinions/perceptions ;)
http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/examining-skeptics/editorial-suppressed-science-on-skeptics/
Quote
Many who loudly advertise themselves as “skeptics” are actually “disbelievers”.
Properly, a skeptic is a nonbeliever, a person who refuses to jump to conclusions based on inconclusive evidence. A disbeliever, on the other hand, is characterized by an a priori belief that a certain idea is wrong and will not be swayed by any amount of empirical evidence to the contrary.

 

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Offline Lightages

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2017, 10:53:39 pm »
That guy just keeps coming up with straw man arguments, non-sequiturs, and woowoo blatherings. For someone who claims to be an experimental physicist he sure seems to be out there.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2017, 11:10:22 pm »
That guy just keeps coming up with straw man arguments, non-sequiturs, and woowoo blatherings. For someone who claims to be an experimental physicist he sure seems to be out there.

As admitted before there is no interest in science here. Perhaps there is in history?
http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/examining-skeptics/guy-lyon-playfair/has-csicop-lost-the-thirty-years-war/
Such a can of worms :palm:
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2017, 03:49:34 am »
WTF are you making incoherent noises about now? Are you a experimental physicist or not? If you say you are again, prove it or shut up. You are getting nuttier every post.
 

Offline hermit

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #52 on: December 25, 2017, 04:36:07 am »
Don't feed the trolls.
 

Offline timb

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Dowsing
« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2017, 05:53:09 am »
That guy just keeps coming up with straw man arguments, non-sequiturs, and woowoo blatherings. For someone who claims to be an experimental physicist he sure seems to be out there.

As admitted before there is no interest in science here. Perhaps there is in history?
http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/examining-skeptics/guy-lyon-playfair/has-csicop-lost-the-thirty-years-war/
Such a can of worms :palm:

How can you be skeptical about skeptics? By definition, being skeptical about something makes you a skeptic! So, in essence that website is implying that if you’re skeptical about skeptics, you should really be skeptical about your own views, since *you’re* now the skeptic. However, if you’re skeptical about being skeptical about skeptics y....EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...RECURSION ERROR...DISCONNECTED...AT&Z...READY_
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline taydin

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2017, 08:17:07 am »
Looks like we need a new top level forum category called "Dowsing", given the amount of interest that exists for it  ^-^

And also a few stickys in the that sub-forum:
- What material makes a good dowsing rod?
- I have a very good dowsing rod, but I just can't make it work, what could be wrong?

 :-DD
Real programmers use machine code!

My hobby projects http://mekatronik.org/forum
 

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2017, 09:33:30 am »
- I have a very good dowsing rod, but I just can't make it work, what could be wrong?
It needs be a special type of Maple and grown in Chile.  ;D
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2017, 10:00:56 am »
How can you be skeptical about skeptics? By definition, being skeptical about something makes you a skeptic! So, in essence that website is implying that if you’re skeptical about skeptics, you should really be skeptical about your own views, since *you’re* now the skeptic. However, if you’re skeptical about being skeptical about skeptics y....EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...RECURSION ERROR...DISCONNECTED...AT&Z...READY_

Figure of speech :-// If read actual article then see that this is about genuine skeptic movement being hijacked by pseudoskeptics eg fundamental materialists who are interested in everything but true science.

But if do not like some other links to help navigate reality:
https://www.lesserwrong.com/rationality
http://rationality.org/
https://intelligence.org/

 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2017, 10:35:11 am »
- I have a very good dowsing rod, but I just can't make it work, what could be wrong?
It needs be a special type of Maple and grown in Chile.  ;D

Or just use spectrum analyzer in certain tasks but psst... we really cannot discuss it, far too sciency! Here it is all about opinions... ::)
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #58 on: December 25, 2017, 05:10:59 pm »
we really cannot discuss it, far too sciency!
We know that is beyond your ken.
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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2017, 07:59:27 pm »
We know that is beyond your ken.

Not really but trying hard to blend in :phew: Stopped posting research links, keeping it to pleasant smalltalk...
 

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2017, 12:38:57 pm »
We know that is beyond your ken.

Not really but trying hard to blend in :phew: Stopped posting research links, keeping it to pleasant smalltalk...
Because you ran out of studies showing dowsing works any better than chance?
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2017, 01:54:36 pm »
Because you ran out of studies showing dowsing works any better than chance?

Nope, but glad you acknowledge that I have provided some previously ;)
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2017, 01:56:45 pm »
I see we agreed to flush this one down the shitter too? Okay. Let's do this!
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 02:00:59 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2017, 02:05:10 pm »
Because you ran out of studies showing dowsing works any better than chance?

Nope, but glad you acknowledge that I have provided some previously ;)
One questionable study showing a potential positive, in how many showing otherwise? You don't need to be a mathematician to calculate the probability. Take as many bites of that cherry, as you like.
I see we agreed to flush this one down the shitter too? Okay. Let's do this!
That happened fairly early on.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2017, 02:47:10 pm »
One questionable study showing a potential positive, in how many showing otherwise? You don't need to be a mathematician to calculate the probability. Take as many bites of that cherry, as you like.

There was more than one. In any case - if interested in knowledge one would conduct experiments, which are very simple in this matter. Share experimental results. Discuss improvements to approach controlled experiment etc. But looking at how people coming forward with empirical evidence get stomped on it is clear what this activity here is all about. Self-appointed (hopefully) "gatekeepers" pampering status quo. What I find funny is that as soon as status quo changes to diametrically opposite same people happily pamper things they once did fight. There are signs that matters are going to substantially change so until then perhaps better exchange pleasantries and :popcorn:

 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2017, 04:18:48 pm »
There was more than one. In any case - if interested in knowledge one would conduct experiments, which are very simple in this matter. Share experimental results. Discuss improvements to approach controlled experiment etc. But looking at how people coming forward with empirical evidence get stomped on it is clear what this activity here is all about. Self-appointed (hopefully) "gatekeepers" pampering status quo. What I find funny is that as soon as status quo changes to diametrically opposite same people happily pamper things they once did fight. There are signs that matters are going to substantially change so until then perhaps better exchange pleasantries and :popcorn:
Why doesn't it surprise me that you're dismissive about people who change their opinion in the face of evidence?

Besides, playing the victim isn't going to help you. You haven't been able to deliver the goods, so people don't believe you. It's that simple. No crying or defaming people about how they're all against you is going to change this.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2017, 04:25:10 pm »
There was more than one. In any case - if interested in knowledge one would conduct experiments, which are very simple in this matter. Share experimental results. Discuss improvements to approach controlled experiment etc. But looking at how people coming forward with empirical evidence get stomped on it is clear what this activity here is all about. Self-appointed (hopefully) "gatekeepers" pampering status quo. What I find funny is that as soon as status quo changes to diametrically opposite same people happily pamper things they once did fight. There are signs that matters are going to substantially change so until then perhaps better exchange pleasantries and :popcorn:
Why doesn't it surprise me that you're dismissive about people who change their opinion in the face of evidence?

Besides, playing the victim isn't going to help you. You haven't been able to deliver the goods, so people don't believe you. It's that simple. No crying or defaming people about how they're all against you is going to change this.
Three people have changed their opinion in favour, vs one who's changed their view against the idea that dowsing works, so  assuming there's no fraud, it seems like his debating style is very effective at convincing the undecided that dowsing works.

This proves that using scientific reasoning is not the most effective way of changing people's views.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2017, 05:00:22 pm »
Three people have changed their opinion in favour, vs one who's changed their view against the idea that dowsing works, so  assuming there's no fraud, it seems like his debating style is very effective at convincing the undecided that dowsing works.

This proves that using scientific reasoning is not the most effective way of changing people's views.

I think it also shows, again, that when any doubt, reasonable or not, is thrown into a subject that people tend to go with belief rather than facts. This can be seen in the rise of flat earth idiocy and numerous conspiracy paranoia.  There seems to be a characteristic of humans that skews our thought process to believing in magic, unseen forces controlling us, and general woowoo.

It is sad that people have decided to change their mind in favor of dowsing being real. This is why we need to fight against the woowoo BS being spouted and keep vigilance.  The Deepak Chopra word salad and non-sequitur ramblings seem to have either confused people or have convinced them with the pseudoscience nonsense.

It is also a fact that when someone cries victim, people will tend to side with them. The false claims of being victimized is a usual tactic for those who wish to sway people to their way of "thinking". It is a shameful and low class tactic. Unfortunately it works.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2017, 05:14:40 pm »
Three people have changed their opinion in favour, vs one who's changed their view against the idea that dowsing works, so  assuming there's no fraud, it seems like his debating style is very effective at convincing the undecided that dowsing works.

This proves that using scientific reasoning is not the most effective way of changing people's views.
It might, though it may be required for people to be more educated about the scientific method.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #69 on: December 26, 2017, 05:51:47 pm »
Three people have changed their opinion in favour, vs one who's changed their view against the idea that dowsing works, so  assuming there's no fraud, it seems like his debating style is very effective at convincing the undecided that dowsing works.

This proves that using scientific reasoning is not the most effective way of changing people's views.

So I see you are not pleased with your poll :( Also there is little error with your statement which I have fixed above. Do not remember you providing scientific data on the subject so must be referring to numerous research papers I linked. But glad you changed your mind and place scientific reasoning above exchange of opinions. As sign of appreciation I will provide further data in main topic. Teaser:

Quote
Without knowledge about RF electromagnetics on the part of investigators it is somewhat understandable that an attitude exists to deny human effects.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2017, 06:30:18 pm »
Three people have changed their opinion in favour, vs one who's changed their view against the idea that dowsing works, so  assuming there's no fraud, it seems like his debating style is very effective at convincing the undecided that dowsing works.

This proves that using scientific reasoning is not the most effective way of changing people's views.
Clearly using scientific reasoning is not the most effective way of changing people's views, otherwise more people would have been converted from believing dowsing is real, to the fact that it's most likely to be bunk. Face it, the balance of scientific evidence, suggests dowsing is no better than chance. You're of course entitled to believe otherwise and can cherry pick a few snippets of information to support your belief that dowsing works better than chance, but it doesn't change anything.

Quote
So I see you are not pleased with your poll :( Also there is little error with your statement which I have fixed above. Do not remember you providing scientific data on the subject so must be referring to numerous research papers I linked. But glad you changed your mind and place scientific reasoning above exchange of opinions. As sign of appreciation I will provide further data in main topic. Teaser:

Quote
Without knowledge about RF electromagnetics on the part of investigators it is somewhat understandable that an attitude exists to deny human effects.
I'm neither pleased, nor displeased with the results of the poll. I find it interesting.

EDIT:
The purpose of this thread is still about people's opinions not science. If it were about the latter, then there would be no scope for debate.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 06:37:48 pm by Hero999 »
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2017, 06:38:35 pm »
I'm neither pleased, nor displeased with the results of the poll. I find it interesting.

Hope you find this interesting also:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/scientist-finds-uk-water-companies-use-'magic'-to-find-leaks/msg1384162/#msg1384162

Edit:
EDIT:
The purpose of this thread is still about people's opinions not science. If it were about the latter, then there would be no scope for debate.

I do agree, as shown in other thread dowsing has been correlated with ideomotorics 300 years ago, correlation is commonly accepted in scientific community. Only recently is has become evident that there is also correlation with VHF radiation which fully excludes possibility of controlled experiment by unqualified personnel due to RF interference considerations.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 06:54:11 pm by MrW0lf »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2017, 06:58:42 pm »
Stop spouting your nonsense. You keep saying you've shown numerous things, yet you've shown us next to nothing. You only lie to yourself, but you can't lie to us. Now go foul up that other thread.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2017, 07:02:32 pm »
Come on guys, it's Christmas!  :palm:

You already have a long thread for this argument, you've no reason for continuing to propagating it across another (especially when you are arguing in both at the same time). It's bad forum etiquette and you know it!
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #74 on: December 26, 2017, 07:06:35 pm »
Come on guys, it's Christmas!  :palm:

You already have a long thread for this argument, you've no reason for continuing to propagating it across another (especially when you are arguing in both at the same time). It's bad forum etiquette and you know it!
You do realize you say pretty much exactly the same thing I was saying, right? Take the discussion to where it already was. We don't need another thread.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #75 on: December 26, 2017, 07:10:02 pm »
Yes, sure. I saw it as I hit post but why waste the sentiment (or support)
Chris

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #76 on: December 26, 2017, 07:11:18 pm »
Yes, sure. I saw it as I hit post but why waste the sentiment (or support)
Sorry, I may have knee-jerked there a bit ;D
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #77 on: December 26, 2017, 07:14:32 pm »
Come on guys, it's Christmas!  :palm:

You already have a long thread for this argument, you've no reason for continuing to propagating it across another (especially when you are arguing in both at the same time). It's bad forum etiquette and you know it!
You do realize you say pretty much exactly the same thing I was saying, right? Take the discussion to where it already was. We don't need another thread.
I agree. This thread should just be about how people change their opinions or not. Keep the other thread for that bullshit.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #78 on: December 27, 2017, 08:45:14 pm »
It seems some people frown upon others who change their opinion on something, which I've never understood. I've changed my view on things before, because new evidence has come to light and can't be anything but proud of that fact.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #79 on: December 28, 2017, 08:50:46 am »
It seems some people frown upon others who change their opinion on something, which I've never understood. I've changed my view on things before, because new evidence has come to light and can't be anything but proud of that fact.
Never changing your views means missing out on a lot of learning opportunities.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2017, 05:45:39 pm »
I think the problem, with some views is they become engrained, a bit like religion.

By the way, I don't always see religion as a bad thing. Often having such beliefs can benefit the beholder, for example believing in heaven can make it easier for someone to grieve or when they've just been told they're going to die in a short length of time. As long as having faith doesn't negatively impact on one's every day life or decision making, it's not a bad thing to have.

Full disclosure: I'm not religious myself.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2017, 07:32:01 pm »
I would like to talk to those who voted that they changed their minds to thinking that it works. What is so convincing? That is assuming that they aren't shills.
 

Offline AllTheGearNoIdea

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #82 on: January 01, 2018, 07:52:27 pm »
I posted earlier I think the whole thing is total woo woo. The problem is I have witness it being used and appeared to work on lots of occasions.  As Christopher Hitchen would have said, is it more likely the laws of nature were suspended  in your own favour or  you were  mistaken. I must have been mistaken.

There nothing wrong in woo woo provided you don’t  try to make other people play with your woo woo or teach woo woo in school instead of science.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 07:58:41 pm by AllTheGearNoIdea »
AllTheGearNoIdea Where Its All About The Gear
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Dowsing
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2018, 11:38:36 pm »
I would like to talk to those who voted that they changed their minds to thinking that it works. What is so convincing? That is assuming that they aren't shills.
"Come out, boy! We just wanna talk to yer! You can't hide forever!"
 


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