Dress standards for engineers

[marshallh]

Hey that's the same phone I have (still, in 2014)

[KJDS]

Hey that's the same phone I have (still, in 2014)

I'm still using a Nokia 6610

[johnwill]

I usually wear jeans, nice shoes, and a dressy collared shirt. I've never had any problems getting jobs or internships. I'm a CS major though, which might have a "less formal" reputation than some other engineering majors. I think a suit and tie is unnecessary, though you wouldn't look out of place.

[Tinkerer]

The oddest dress standard I've encountered was a bloke called Alan, who'd often be naked in the lab early in the morning.

So he must have been one of the head guys? I am sure many places are lenient in their code, but I cant see all but the most uncaring, perhaps, that would allow that.

[G0HZU]

I doubt he had a window seat...

Would it be good or bad for ESD prevention? The sticky heelstraps wouldn't work on bare feet and I guess a wriststrap would be seen as overdressing.

[VK3DRB]

I totally 100% reject your notion of 'the clothes makes the man'.  that was from a bygone era and no longer applies.

Clearly you'd be able to safely know things about me if I had that tattoo.

Sport a few tattoos and it won't do yourself any favours trying to get a job in a professional company as an engineer. Same with men dolling themselves up with earrings. Lets' face it, you won't find the CEO of a major corporation with tatts around his neck and over their skinhead with a couple of dainty earrings dangling from his ear lobes. One company I worked with had a brilliant IT bloke - the best of the best - who had multicoloured hair (he was not a natural greenhead). He had a great attitude, aptitude and ability. He went for a job as an IT manager where he would have excelled, but didn't get it because he did not fit in the corporate image. The bloke who got the job proved to be a complete IT moron - full of and little skill.  Lets' face it, people judge by appearance.

In Japan, in general you are not allowed to enter a public pool is you have got tatts. That includes women. If a shop keeper sees a tattoo on you, they will often put up their hands symbolising "I refuse to serve you. Now, get out." The reason is tattoos are associated with undesirables like the Yakuza.

So if you don't look the part and conform, you do limit your options.

[Dr. Frank]

In our automotive company, the normal work at the bench or in internal meetings are done in casual clothes, i.e. jeans and also Birkenstock sandals (summer w/o socks  ) allowed.

If our engineers visit our dear customers, best suit and tie are mostly obligatory.

Our suppliers come dressed the same, so it is simply a sign of politeness, to wear similar clothes, when we welcome them.

Frank

[con-f-use]

Sport a few tattoos and it won't do yourself any favours trying to get a job in a professional company as an engineer. [...] One company I worked with had a brilliant IT bloke [...] who had multicoloured hair [...]. He went for a job as an IT manager where he would have excelled, but didn't get it because he did not fit in the corporate image. [...] In Japan, in general you are not allowed to enter a public pool is you have got tatts. So if you don't look the part and conform, you do limit your options.

Yes, discrimination based on looks is a reality. But it's still discrimination and should NOT be allowed to.

[zapta]

Yes, discrimination based on looks is a reality. But it's still discrimination and should NOT be allowed to.

Reminds me a story I read about Abe Lincoln. After he met with a guy he told his aid that he did not like the look of that guy.  When the aid  challenged him he said "by the time you get to this age, you have a lot to do with how you look".

[don.r]

Yes, discrimination based on looks is a reality. But it's still discrimination and should NOT be allowed to.

Reminds me a story I read about Abe Lincoln. After he met with a guy he told his aid that he did not like the look of that guy.  When the aid  challenged him he said "by the time you get to this age, you have a lot to do with how you look".

That's a bit rich coming from Lincoln who was no oil painting himself.

I started out in jeans/khakis and a dress shirt or t-shirt on Fridays working for SMEs and big boys like Motorola. When I moved into finance, it was 3 piece suits, hand made leather shoes and an expensive watch. You really needed to look "the part" to be taken seriously in a meeting such is the shallowness of some people. Now I spend most days in my underwear. I think I have moved up in the world considerably.

The most knowledgable people that I have met could have been wearing potato sacks for all I care, I never noticed what they wore. Those who were all hat and no cattle were usually dressed extravegantly and made sure everyone knew it.

[Rigby]

I started out in jeans/khakis and a dress shirt or t-shirt on Fridays working for SMEs and big boys like Motorola. When I moved into finance, it was 3 piece suits, hand made leather shoes and an expensive watch. You really needed to look "the part" to be taken seriously in a meeting such is the shallowness of some people. Now I spend most days in my underwear. I think I have moved up in the world considerably.

Yeah, when you're in a club, you're expected to dress the part.  Finance is little more than astrology & psychic prediction, to me.  So, yes, a wanking club.  Last one to hit the cookie eats it.

[don.r]

I started out in jeans/khakis and a dress shirt or t-shirt on Fridays working for SMEs and big boys like Motorola. When I moved into finance, it was 3 piece suits, hand made leather shoes and an expensive watch. You really needed to look "the part" to be taken seriously in a meeting such is the shallowness of some people. Now I spend most days in my underwear. I think I have moved up in the world considerably.

Yeah, when you're in a club, you're expected to dress the part.  Finance is little more than astrology & psychic prediction, to me.  So, yes, a wanking club.  Last one to hit the cookie eats it.

You are insulting astrology and psychic prediction... at least they have an interesting dress sense usually.

[con-f-use]

I remember reading a rather odd study in which they asked renown financial gurus to pick 10 stocks for them each weak over the cause of a year. They'd invest a fictional amount of money in them, then compared the total to stocks parrot had picked at random. The parrot came out with $10 less of a loss.

[Rigby]

You know you're useless when a random number generator does a better job of picking than you do.  this is why they place so much importance on things that don't matter - because they have nothing else to control.

[David_AVD]

Yes, discrimination based on looks is a reality. But it's still discrimination and should NOT be allowed to.

I contend that using visual cues is often very useful, along with how someone acts, etc and helps you form an overall picture.  Some of this discrimination talk is bullshit by the PC brigade.

If you turn up here for a job interview looking scruffy your application will be in the circular file (bin) real quick.   

[linux-works]

If you turn up here for a job interview looking scruffy your application will be in the circular file (bin) real quick.   

I'm sure you miss out on a lot of good people that way.  but its your choice.  if you prefer 'looks' over ability, hey, its your company, not mine.

similarly, if I heard of a boss making such snap judgements, it works both ways: I would not want to work for a guy who makes such surface-level judgements without even taking the time to meet the PERSON.

I think a lot of this is cultural.  in more formal countries, people are much more hung-up on 'fitting in'.  but again, its a 2-way filter.  maybe all you want is middle-of-the-road employees.  you won't get superstars with that attitude, though, I am quite sure of that.

[David_AVD]

If you turn up here for a job interview looking scruffy your application will be in the circular file (bin) real quick.   

I'm sure you miss out on a lot of good people that way.  but its your choice.  if you prefer 'looks' over ability, hey, its your company, not mine.

Yep, it's my choice and the PC brigade can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.   

[Rigby]

appearance as a statement of personality is only valid so much. after that, appearance becomes a statement of laziness and/or lack of understanding.

[linux-works]

some people really don't want to be 'just like everyone else'.  and being different in how they dress does help them.

why is that so hard to accept?  why is that met with resistance?

one is more free and the other is more restrictive.  shouldn't we be moving toward more freedom?

if you look at social dress standards over the last centuries, the trend has been to dress 'down' and less formal.  there is no push to be -more- formal.

the trend is clear.  get with the program or be left behind.  but don't force employees to conform if they don't want to.  that's really old and backward thinking.

[David_AVD]

the trend is clear.  get with the program or be left behind.  but don't force employees to conform if they don't want to.  that's really old and backward thinking.

That's your opinion and of course you're entitled to it.  Just like I'm free to do things the way I want to.   

[Rigby]

ok, but I'm not sure you can see both sides.

none of us have argued that personal expression is bad.  it seems that you think we believe that any non-standard dress is forbidden. that is not the case.

we only see physical traits that indicate the presence of some very odd personality trait.

would you walk into the home of a chronic hoarder and decree it to be purely personal expression? I wouldn't.  hoarders have real issues.  people that keep a clean home and put up bob Marley posters are expressing themselves.

people that wear clothes with rips and stains aren't even in the same sport as someone that dresses neatly, no matter what it is they're wearing.

[David_AVD]

I certainly agree there's nothing wrong with personal expression, but you can't expect to do (or wear) whatever you please (without bounds) when you work for someone else.

[linux-works]

without bounds?  is that a 'no-true-scotsman' thing going on, there?

no one ever said 'without bounds'.  we are talking about clean, non ripped clothes that just happen not to be what 'the boss wears' or what the boss may WANT us to wear.

[grumpydoc]

some people really don't want to be 'just like everyone else'.  and being different in how they dress does help them.

why is that so hard to accept?  why is that met with resistance?

one is more free and the other is more restrictive.  shouldn't we be moving toward more freedom?

if you look at social dress standards over the last centuries, the trend has been to dress 'down' and less formal.  there is no push to be -more- formal.

the trend is clear.  get with the program or be left behind.  but don't force employees to conform if they don't want to.  that's really old and backward thinking.

You have a valid point and many talented people in both software and electronics do not feel the need to conform to conventional dress codes. It says little about their ability as an engineer.

But there are more forces at play, especially in an interview situation. Everyone who works with others has to fit in at least a little otherwise, however talented they are, it will be difficult to get useful effort from them. We've touched on things like Asperger's before in the forum.

Fitting in and wearing a suit (if that's what is expected) to an interview signals that there is recognition that occasionally one has to bend a little and see things from others' viewpoint. That's quite important for fitting socially to the office environment and understanding project requirements.

[David_AVD]

It's pretty simple; if the employer requires you to wear a certain standard of clothing (uniform or otherwise), you do it.  If you don't want to do that, you can ask for an exemption or find another job.