Author Topic: DuraHELL batteries  (Read 42247 times)

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Online bdunham7

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #100 on: October 17, 2020, 05:11:34 pm »

It's funny that the cheap dollar store batteries seem less prone to leakage.  Maybe no active ingredients inside? :D

I think they're mostly carbon-zinc batteries.  The only alkalines I see are ACDelco (and more than $1) and I haven't tried them yet, although the online testing reviews seem to be favorable.  For low-draw miscellaneous stuff I've been using Sunbeam (2-pk of 9V for $1) or Panasonic branded cells and so far they work and don't leak.  What is so aggravating is that the stuff that gets damaged is the 'better' equipment that I didn't want to cheap out on--so I put the 'good' cells in them.   |O :palm:
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Online bdunham7

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #101 on: October 17, 2020, 07:43:00 pm »
part of something everyone should do is test the quiescent current draw of your battery powered expensive tools, particularly ones off ebay, because the soft switch can be fucked up. A good soft switch should be around 5uA draw, slightly more with a RTC.

I can't accept that the cell should leak just because it is discharged.  Some applications DO have a constant draw and that is why the battery is there.  And in any case, most of my 'leakers' have been in devices with no possibility of a draw--and some of the leakers were not even discharged, as the device was still working. 

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Fluke 187 - 9V battery. Fluke 289 - 6AA cells. WTF. I am guessing at this rate the future fluke 387 will have a 30Wh LIPO in there.

The 289 has a lot more stuff than a plain DMM, like IR communications, Lo-Ohms, bright backlight, etc.  Mine actually was killing batteries and losing its memory, so it went off to Fluke.  No leaks, though.  Now it is back and has worked for some time on the 6 AA Energizers they installed.  I don't mind 6AAs if they actually last a while.  It isn't like the meter would be much smaller or lighter without them.

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Also, try setting a primary lithium on fire some time, cut it open and spit in it. It burns like a road flare. I don't like this. It is not necessary to put that in a fucking wall clock.

If you were to burn the average plastic wall clock, I think the clock would give off more smoke and release more heat than the battery.  I haven't cut any in half an spit in them, but they seem to be one of the most well engineered and documented products out there.  Read this, especially regarding the PTC protection and pressure vents.  I've not heard of them starting any fires.

https://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf
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Online coppercone2

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2020, 08:09:36 pm »
You still need to test all devices to make sure, its malfunction which causes draw. Unless you test the device you don't know if a eBay purchase gave you a partially fried soft switch pass transistor that drains 5 to 50 times the expected quiescent current while powered off!

Any battery will leak when over drained. It leaks more when you drain it fast but the idea is.. you should replace them at a reasonable voltage under nominal. If you are still expecting good chances of not leaking because your device decides to extract energy from them at 0.8 volts.. its not a good idea to try to squeeze that out of them (if the batterizer actually worked well, it would cause mayhem in terms of battery leakage). What the premium batteries are supposed to do is offer more useful life for power devices in the nominal region (extend that platue of 1.2V). They do not vent the gas and as the electrolyte is spent the gas pressure rises...

As dave jones has shown, using the batteries under nominal.. does not save much. There is not much capacity left there. It is not worth to squeeze them dry for the extra 5-10% (if that, usually at this voltage range the device starts to 'suck' by having a dim display, being quiet, etc.. so its essentially crippled. You could say for the most part you are squeezing almost nothing out of the battery, and you are also putting up with a improperly functioning device in terms of UI, accuracy, etc. Even good DMM and stuff often have low battery voltage related errors).


And try lighting a wall clock on fire with a small short, it will just smolder. but a lithium flare will ignite most any difficult to ignite fire retardant material. I did that test on a plastic table and it melted through the whole thing and set the corners of the burn hole on fire with dripping plastic. Those normal AA devices are safe because they don't have what it takes to actually get enough plastic hot enough to start a fire.. but I am not kidding, the lithium primary battery in AA size is similar to a nautical flare once you get it started. The normal road flare you see is pretty tame because it does not have flammable metals in it, just sulfur, sawdust and red oxidizer. Once you put flammable metals in there the flame temperature increases drastically, it starts spewing little fireballs like a sparkler fountain and flame/burn chemistry changes because of the refractory temperatures achieved. And that fire just gets more angry when you pour water on it and starts spewing more white hot fireballs. (its a end of the world volcano effect, the worst electronic component failure I know of).

A123 and such batteries also do it.. they double as decent fireworks and produce about as much smoke as a similar sized firework.. smash them on a rainy 4th of july for fun. The burn rate is more impressive then even a large sparkler.

Do actually try it, the videos are not very good at conveying the true story of reactive metal fires.




So after 10 years turned off, the device should not get under 1V ideally. If you get down to 1V after 6 months because of high quiescent, the battery is dead, has almost no energy left (the integral under the curve on the voltage range of interest is energy), and it is pressurized. Leave it pressurized and dead for 2 years and of course it will leak. The time constant for checking the devices is too frustrating, it should be at least good for 2 years by design IMO.  At 0.8V you have like <5% capacity. No point in leaving it in. When you find that you should be anxious about how little time it has left and how its not going to  be available when you need it.

The date mark of those devices is 'best use by' not 'in service until.. the service use date depends on the voltage/capacity/gas pressure. Of course if it leaks in the package its a QC problem. Not saying there is not bad brands. No one wants to design it because someone is stupid and leaves a battery that will not even power up the device in the circuit for 3 years.

I recommend checking the batteries yearly with a DMM and tossing most stuff that is under 1V because its not worth the money.. the value is still good if you don't squeeze 5% more out of it. Chances are you will just be late to work when you forget about a clock anyway, not worth the risk. Optimally test in circuit, but its difficult in some devices like flashlights, so then you need a battery load tester. Thankfully its like 5$. You don't need to be super precise because everything is cheap.

I would go with the gut instinct and cut down that 'good till' date by 30%. Have you ever seen any consumer device ever that has totally accurate specifications? Any moderately smart individual will do things like 'try not to use that drill on max all the time' unless they paid 500$ for a boutique power tool that retails for 250-300 from common manufacturers (in terms of power tools). I.e. plowing tons of holes in reinforced concrete with a standard hammer drill with the max drill bit size all day on a round robin shift of batteries..
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 08:39:09 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #103 on: October 18, 2020, 01:15:45 am »
[...]
So after 10 years turned off, the device should not get under 1V ideally.
[...]

But no alkaline battery has more than a 5 year shelf life rating - which, as you said, we should sensibly reduce by 30% to be on the safe side?

Basically, even with a low or no drain, these things are doomed to fail relatively quickly even in the best circumstances.

Lithium is the only technology I know of that gives a 10 year shelf life, and I'm not aware of anyone having complained that it is unachievable?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 01:19:13 am by SilverSolder »
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #104 on: October 18, 2020, 01:25:49 am »
I thought duracell was 10 years and the lithium ones 20 years. I think energizer, duracell, panasonic, etc give 10 years for alkaline and 20 years for lithium. .

https://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf 20 years
the alkaline ones are 10 years. i never saw 5 year. maybe a zinc carbon cell, but I have zero use for zinc carbon, the only one I have is a F cell from inside a lantern. they are trash that literary dents when you press on it because the housing is made of zinc  ??? , I assume it can corrode through any part of the battery, not only the seam.

So I would go 7/14 instead of 10/20. throw it out 3/6 years early.

no one really knows about the AA lithium because their expensive, but if you take apart a used one, the metal is severely deteriorated. it looks like a rag left in the dirt for a long time.

keep in mind the chemistry of AA lithium is different then 2/3 cell lithium (stubby camera cells). the AA use iron disulfide, the stubby cells used manganese dioxide, both with metallic lithium. AAA is also the disulfide.

If you compare the internals, the manganese dioxide lithium ones (short cells) are built WAY tougher then the energizer batteries, with a thick mesh and manganese layer, that is almost rubbery, vs something akin to the stuff they put between slices of prosciutto in the iron disulfide one. Don't think I would trust it for 20 years, but I might trust the lithium/maganese one for whatever its rated for, because the construction seems very solid.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 01:38:43 am by coppercone2 »
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #105 on: October 18, 2020, 01:37:30 am »
I thought duracell was 10 years and the lithium ones 20 years. I think energizer, duracell, panasonic, etc give 10 years for alkaline and 20 years for lithium. .

https://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf 20 years
the alkaline ones are 10 years. i never saw 5 year. maybe a zinc carbon cell, but I have zero use for zinc carbon, the only one I have is a F cell from inside a lantern

So I would go 7/14 instead of 10/20. throw it out 3/6 years early.

no one really knows about the AA lithium because their expensive, but if you take apart a used one, the metal is severely deteriorated. it looks like a rag left in the dirt for a long time.

keep in mind the chemistry of AA lithium is different then A123 lithium (stubby camera cells). the AA use iron disulfide, the stubby cells used manganese dioxide, both with metallic lithium. AAA is also the disulfide.

If you compare the internals, the manganese dioxide lithium ones (short cells) are built WAY tougher then the energizer batteries, with a thick mesh and manganese layer, that is almost rubbery, vs something akin to the stuff they put between slices of prosciutto in the iron disulfide one.

I sit corrected - I don't know why I was so sure it was 5.  -  I'm not sure I'd trust a real world alkaline to be ready after 10 years storage, nor would I trust a lithium cell to be ready to use after 20 years!  :D

I think my alkalines tend to last max 5 years before beginning to leak in storage, but decay is accelerated at elevated temperature and it is possible I have stored them at higher than normal room temperature during the hottest summer months.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #106 on: October 18, 2020, 01:40:46 am »
https://panda-bg.com/datasheet/1617-360405-Lithium-Cylindrical-Battery-GP-CR123A.pdf

I would trust that type of battery for the 10 years because it is good inside. (at least panasonic was)

https://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf

this one not so much, its wimpy inside, and they claim 20 years. And it has sulfur, which I assume makes it less stable from a metallurgical standpoint.

If I recall the energizer one has some sort of liquid inside, in a slight amount, its not dry.

But it could very well be that energizer put it in an accelerated test chamber and it performed to 20 years wheras the alkaline performed to 10 years. I think this date is generated from accelerated testing (I assume they have some law as we know electrolytic capacitors to have) that relates life time and temperature, which I assume is the main environmental factor they are concerned with.

I also wonder how much of an effect shipping has on the battery. the beginning is a very delicate time...
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 04:35:03 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #107 on: November 24, 2020, 02:56:22 pm »
I had good experience with the orange looking "Industrial" Duracell batteries.
In June I ordered some more and instead got some Duracell "PROCELL" batteries.

Today I needed one and took a brand new one out of its original box.

Made in Belgium and good until 2026.
What to say?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 02:58:13 pm by HighVoltage »
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Offline madires

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #108 on: November 24, 2020, 05:47:43 pm »
I think you got the meaning of the date wrong. It means "will leak before". >:D

BTW, recently I had Ansmann button cells with very poor performance (1/6 of the rated mAh). Looks like they are importing China's cheapest. >:( Another brand to avoid.
 
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Offline helius

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #109 on: November 25, 2020, 01:40:32 am »
Even worse if that Procell had been in your equipment, because the manufacturers don't warranty damage caused by "professional" batteries. They are intended for installation by OEMs and not end users, so somebody else gets to hold the liability bag.
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #110 on: November 25, 2020, 12:02:54 pm »
As I mention in this other discussion:

In my undocumented experience, I have the impression the mechanical conditions that contribute the most to battery leakage are the confinement in the tight space of a battery holder and the pressure from the spring or possible impact (in case they leak in their original packaging).

The other factor I suspect the most is that the draining of the battery never ceases - they seem to leak more when left for weeks/months in equipment with a soft power button.

For the equipment with a hard power button (flashlights, or my kids' soap bubble machine, for example), the discharge ceases in the off position, but I suspect the harsh environment and mechanical movement/impact seems to accelerate this process.

I don't recall experiencing this with battery powered alarm clocks or other equipment that is "left alone" (wall clocks, wireless thermometers, etc.)

This is totally anecdotal, but I can't believe the manufacturers never explored all these possibilities in testing - my guess is the drop in quality and durability is entirely deliberate.


My recent observations are that some of the "industrial" or OEM batteries that are included in products haven't leaked - of course there's always a first time. That includes some of my kids' toys, where I found that Tianqiu batteries seem to be very sturdy, as several toys are no stranger to abuse but leakage does not seem to be a problem. And yes, some of them were past their expiration date and still holding a charge.

At up to 2014 or whereabouts, Energizers were my go-to battery and I didn't have a leak (even found a 2013 exp. date on my bathroom scale with a soft button still holding great and no leak). After a few bad experiences, I moved to Ray-o-vac which worked very well for about 4 more years. Now I get them leaking in a very similar way as Dave mentioned in one of his last battery videos (liquid seeping between the external plastic film and the internal encasing), even on the store packaging.

Panasonic and Maxell are still highly regarded by me, but I don't have them in numbers to warrant a more educated experience.

Ah, and 9V also leak
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #111 on: November 25, 2020, 01:41:47 pm »
Even worse if that Procell had been in your equipment, because the manufacturers don't warranty damage caused by "professional" batteries. They are intended for installation by OEMs and not end users, so somebody else gets to hold the liability bag.

I was not aware of this, thanks !

It is a surprise to me that the manufacturers get away with this.

Today I bought some AA batteries from Würth.
They claim to be professional batteries that do not leak.
I am not sure who the manufacturer is behind these batteries, but will test them.

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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #112 on: November 25, 2020, 11:11:46 pm »
I wonder if the Lunar Rover batteries are leaking now?
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Offline Refrigerator

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #113 on: November 26, 2020, 09:04:42 am »
They claim to be professional batteries that do not leak.
Sounds familiar, where have i seen that one  ;D hmm
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Online coppercone2

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #114 on: November 26, 2020, 05:50:48 pm »
the leaks all have to do with gas pressure I think, so a test might be to measure them carefully with a micrometer to see if they are bloated.

The bounce test shows you that its highly pressurized and spent. I am guessing that some amount of gas is generated based on the amount of energy used, so the more drained they are, the higher the pressure is, the more strain you have on the seal. If you leave them in equipment for a long time with high quiescent drain (badly designed or damaged soft switch), it keeps using energy and pressurizing.. its like leaving a resistor across it, it won't cut off, and it will get the battery low enough to get it under high pressure. That's why products like batterizer are inherently stupid unless like I always said its some post apocalyptic military zombie survival shit. I assume their goal is to power a gieger counter with AA batteries scavenged 10 years after the end of the world. A good product might want to cut off completely at 1V/cell or so.

There is probobly a corrosion factory (MM/Y rate of corrosion of the materials) and a gas pressure factor that are mixed together. Then I assume once its damaged by internal corrosion and pressurized it becomes more susceptible to temperature swings. Basically all material of reasonable cost will corrode when holding those chemicals at some rate of thickness per unit time. Then when its thinner the pressure will deform it and temperature swings will preturb it and it will form a crack some where and let corrosive mist through (the gas will push the electrolyte out of a small orifice at high pressure to make a acid rain storm or a drip).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 06:02:05 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #115 on: November 26, 2020, 07:45:04 pm »

Maybe the batteries could be put in a pressure chamber and cycled?  That might reveal the fatal flaw in these things.
 

Offline SoundTech-LG

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #116 on: December 23, 2020, 11:22:31 pm »
Duracell ruined my Fluke 187 battery contacts. Now I can buy Duracells even cheaper!!!   (NOT!!!)

https://www.rather-be-shopping.com/blog/costco-batteries/
 

Offline james_s

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #117 on: December 28, 2020, 08:36:49 am »
Yesterday I found a laser pointer in a drawer where it had slipped under some stuff and got lost for a couple years. I knew it was bad when I saw a corroded bulge in the side of the aluminum body. Used pliers to wrench the cap off the end and saw the unmistakable top of a Duracell battery. Such complete trash, I wonder if people will ever figure out how bad they have become.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #118 on: December 28, 2020, 02:19:35 pm »

Despite running a strict "no Duracell" policy for a couple of years now, they still keep popping up here as well...   

The average consumer has no chance...  they will consider it bad luck etc. when it happens to them, because the fault develops so slowly.

We need a battery equivalent of a Ralph Nader to get attention to this!  :D

 
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Offline pinchies

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #119 on: September 14, 2021, 04:35:12 am »
Just adding my 2c worth... digging in my "new batteries" battery box, and found two leaking ... no prizes for guessing the brand... durasmell... with expiry 2024!  :palm:
Found just one more with the same batch number not visibly leaking, but with that strong "I'm leaking" smell. All measured 1.45V+.

Friends don't let friends buy Duracell!

« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 04:48:44 am by pinchies »
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #120 on: September 15, 2021, 10:09:11 am »
Just adding my 2c worth... digging in my "new batteries" battery box, and found two leaking ... no prizes for guessing the brand... durasmell... with expiry 2024!  :palm:
Found just one more with the same batch number not visibly leaking, but with that strong "I'm leaking" smell. All measured 1.45V+.

Friends don't let friends buy Duracell!



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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #121 on: September 15, 2021, 11:57:01 am »
The same thing happened to me in original packaging!
And a few weeks ago, I recycled them all.
Never again!



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Offline madires

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #122 on: September 15, 2021, 01:55:36 pm »
I think you got it wrong. It's not the expiry date, it's the "will leak before" date. >:D
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2021, 04:05:07 pm »

Meanwhile, I have some Duracell Rechargeable AAs (suspected re-badged Eneloops) here that still take a good charge after ~10 years of use...

It seems the pathetically poor quality of Duracell AA Alkaline cells does not extend to their Rechargeable lineup?
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: DuraHELL batteries
« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2021, 04:26:32 pm »
I think you got it wrong. It's not the expiry date, it's the "will leak before" date. >:D

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