Author Topic: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?  (Read 6447 times)

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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2020, 12:48:52 am »
Yup.

Effectively there are no interrupts in xCORE processors: you simply dedicate a core to an i/o port and (if necessary) it sleeps until the input has arrived. The language has primitives indicating the clock cycle on which output will occur, or capturing the clock cycle on which input did occur.

To a useful approximation inter-core comms is the same as i/o: messages to/from other cores are identical to "messages" to/from i/o ports.

I'm far from being an expert in xCORE or xC, but it just worked as I wanted it to work, as stated in the documentation and as I would expect it to work. Stunningly pain-free, unlike other MCUs with their strange i/o config registers etc :)

For some application areas, that sounds really good. It reminds me of the Propeller processors (by Parallax), at least in the concept of having many cores, for easy/good embedded use.

Exactly.

Multicore hardware is trivial; multiprocessor languages and software always have been (and continue to be) the big problem. Hence I found Propellor to be uninteresting, and didn't bother to build anything with it.

A key point about xCORE/xC is the tight integration of hardware and software, just like Transputer and Occam. David May has been involved in all of that. In addition Transputer/Occam and xCORE/xC have solid theoretical roots in CSP.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online MK14

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2020, 01:01:56 am »
Exactly.

Multicore hardware is trivial; multiprocessor languages and software always have been (and continue to be) the big problem. Hence I found Propellor to be uninteresting, and didn't bother to build anything with it.

A key point about xCORE/xC is the tight integration of hardware and software, just like Transputer and Occam. David May has been involved in all of that. In addition Transputer/Occam and xCORE/xC have solid theoretical roots in CSP.

The thing is. Just like with mcu's bigger brothers, desktop processors. The laws of Physics, such as the speed of light (which the speed of electricity presumably (Physics can get complicated) relates to, as well as other parameters), and other practical limits, such as capacitance of real life components.
Effectively making exceeding 5 GHz (exact limit debatable, maybe 6 or 7 GHz, would be a better figure here, so please take this value as approximate), without spending huge amounts of money, needing crazy amounts of power, and almost impractical cooling solutions. Ever harder.
I wouldn't want to give it a hard limit. yes you can do 5.1 GHz, and 5.2 GHz etc.
But, we are reaching the practical limits, of existing production technologies (we are at around 7nm as regards production/ and existing sales, but 5nm is coming and probably smaller still).

So, going parallel. Seems to be the logical (excuse the pun) way forward.

That is what AMD are doing with their newer ranges of Ryzen processors. With an amazing 64 core desktop/workstation cpu  (hugely expensive though (around £4K, for the top one), but worth it, if you need the horse power, such as high end content creators). Even 128 cores, by going for a pair of server cpus.
Also, graphics processors, have also gone this route. Depending on how you count them, with potentially, tens of thousands of processors (and/or threads).

So, microcontrollers in embedded systems, are going to need to go the same way, sooner or later.
Because of the potential power savings, of running a large number of cores at lower frequencies. That can also be another reason, as some embedded systems can't produce much heat (fan not allowed, impracticable and/or too unreliable), and may need to use little power, because of needing to run off batteries.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 01:11:40 am by MK14 »
 
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Offline ocsetTopic starter

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2020, 07:58:44 am »
Quote
You should probably inform the British Intelligence service whoever they are as this sounds like industrial espionage! I am appalled that you are even thinking of this and discussing it in a forum where EE enthusiasts gather to solve each others' problems and teach/help in the process. Unless you are a Chinese national floating the idea to gather what kind of response you could get, you should be scared. Just my opinion.
..scared...who of?...nobody does anything about this kind of thing....we will just fill our boots...then we will be over to the states to do the same thing there.
Having said that, people in the states are already doing exactly this.
And people, even people like you, dont  do anything about it.
Gauranteed that you wont write to your politician about it.
Gauranteed you wont join the "revive USA industry" group...because there isnt one...neither is there a "Revive British industry" group...well there is, but nobody wants to join it...
https://massey276.wixsite.com/revive

..this is why we will clean up!
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 08:00:58 am by treez »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2020, 08:34:42 am »
Exactly.

Multicore hardware is trivial; multiprocessor languages and software always have been (and continue to be) the big problem. Hence I found Propellor to be uninteresting, and didn't bother to build anything with it.

A key point about xCORE/xC is the tight integration of hardware and software, just like Transputer and Occam. David May has been involved in all of that. In addition Transputer/Occam and xCORE/xC have solid theoretical roots in CSP.

The thing is. Just like with mcu's bigger brothers, desktop processors. The laws of Physics, such as the speed of light (which the speed of electricity presumably (Physics can get complicated) relates to, as well as other parameters), and other practical limits, such as capacitance of real life components.
Effectively making exceeding 5 GHz (exact limit debatable, maybe 6 or 7 GHz, would be a better figure here, so please take this value as approximate), without spending huge amounts of money, needing crazy amounts of power, and almost impractical cooling solutions. Ever harder.
I wouldn't want to give it a hard limit. yes you can do 5.1 GHz, and 5.2 GHz etc.
But, we are reaching the practical limits, of existing production technologies (we are at around 7nm as regards production/ and existing sales, but 5nm is coming and probably smaller still).

So, going parallel. Seems to be the logical (excuse the pun) way forward.

That is what AMD are doing with their newer ranges of Ryzen processors. With an amazing 64 core desktop/workstation cpu  (hugely expensive though (around £4K, for the top one), but worth it, if you need the horse power, such as high end content creators). Even 128 cores, by going for a pair of server cpus.
Also, graphics processors, have also gone this route. Depending on how you count them, with potentially, tens of thousands of processors (and/or threads).

So, microcontrollers in embedded systems, are going to need to go the same way, sooner or later.
Because of the potential power savings, of running a large number of cores at lower frequencies. That can also be another reason, as some embedded systems can't produce much heat (fan not allowed, impracticable and/or too unreliable), and may need to use little power, because of needing to run off batteries.

The fundamental limits are the speed of light (i.e. latency) and heat generation. We are pushing both: compare the heat flux with that in a kettle or nuclear reactor, and the time it takes a signal to get across a chip (worse: to another chiplet) with the clock period.

The AMD/intel chips (and SMP big iron) all rely on cache coherency. The messages associated with cache coherency protocols become a limiting factor: too many messages, too long latency.

There are a few techniques for not requiring cache coherency, e.g. CSP and descendents, or MapReduce etc. We need more techniques.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline Koen

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2020, 08:36:41 am »
Someone seems to have stolen your thread.

https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/great-idea-for-chinese-importation-business.404674/

Typical. They stole his street lights, they stole his power supplies, they stole his thread. Hang on there treez!
 
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2020, 09:17:51 am »
THE SAME IDEA WAS ALREADY POSTED IN THIS FORUM A FEW YEARS AGO.

I AM TOO LAZY TO SEARCH FOR IT, BUT EVEN THE PRODUCT IDEA WAS THE SAME.

WHEN I READ THE FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD I EVEN CHECKED THE DATE TO MAKE SURE THIS IS NOT THE SAME ORIGINAL POST.

THIS MUST EITHER BE:

A) TROLLING
B) TROLLING

REGARDS,
VITOR

PS: Sorry for the CAPS - I am shouting!

By the way, as I remember, on the original thread, the common reply was that if such a company would be made, they should be exposed immediatly and go corrupt. The base of this business idea is to a) get money from tax payers, b) cheat customers into thinking it is a UK/EU product and c) use cheap Chinese labour to actually design and manufacture. The world does not need such a company and I would be ashamed if I was even considering working for such a scam, no matter how much money I was offered. Honesty and character are worth a lot and once lost cannot be recovered.
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2020, 10:59:05 am »
The fundamental limits are the speed of light (i.e. latency) and heat generation. We are pushing both: compare the heat flux with that in a kettle or nuclear reactor, and the time it takes a signal to get across a chip (worse: to another chiplet) with the clock period.

The AMD/intel chips (and SMP big iron) all rely on cache coherency. The messages associated with cache coherency protocols become a limiting factor: too many messages, too long latency.

There are a few techniques for not requiring cache coherency, e.g. CSP and descendents, or MapReduce etc. We need more techniques.

You are right. There are two ways of looking at the situation, and I was mainly promoting the other way.

One way is what is the maximum number of cores you can have. (Ignoring the practicalities or limits on how many cores a system/program can usefully use). So I meant that in theory. Assuming there is going to continue to be, ever lower cost cores, in the future.
So (hypothetically), at some future date, we may see (domestic home computers), with 1,000 cores, and maybe later still 1,000,000. Later still even a billion or trillion cores. It is not clear, where the boundaries are going to be (especially if quantum computers, become a thing), and at what cost.

The fastest computer, I can quickly find by googling (Summit), seems to have around 2.5 million cores.
https://www.top500.org/system/179397
Quote
Cores:   2,414,592

So, presumably, one day we will see home computers, with that kind of power (2.5 million cores, Theoretical Peak (Rpeak)   200,795 TFlop/s), for under $1,000. But when ?
2021, 2030, 2050/60, 2199, 9998 ?

But on the other hand (what you seem to be describing), there are limits as to how many cores an actual real life problem or program(s), can actually, really use.
For some problems, such as converting a long video, from one format to another (or compressing it), the video, can be split into hundreds of thousands of individual frames, and each frame can have millions of pixels.
So, millions of cores, can fairly easily be used in parallel.

But many other problems, need communications (such as the cache you mentioned, as part of shared memory), which can severely limit the number of cores that can be usefully used to parallelize a particular task.

Also (as you said), latency, can be the fundamental limit. Which can be the case, especially in some real time embedded systems. E.g. A car, which essentially has to respond to certain events (such as air bag deployment), in rather limited amounts of time. Otherwise the accident (or whatever the driver/car was trying to do), is over, and it is too late.

So, things like the XMOS xCORE, may well help provide a starting point for such work. Which is what the Inmos Transputer, and its Occam programming language. Were trying to achieve, many years ago.

Sadly, the reality is that single core performance, is still the main performance factor, for many things, and C/C++ (like) languages, rather than highly parallel languages, are still the norm.

tl;dr
Even if hardware, with many cores, becomes cheap and common place. The software to use such potentially huge computing power, could be a decade or many decades away. In a number of cases, it is theoretically believed, that it is not even possible (such as what is known as Amdahl's law).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl%27s_law
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 11:00:43 am by MK14 »
 

Offline Koen

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2020, 12:23:01 pm »
Bicurico might be thinking of this thread which is only testimony of the drive, willpower and long term vision of treez.
 

Online MK14

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2020, 12:38:46 pm »
Bicurico might be thinking of this thread which is only testimony of the drive, willpower and long term vision of treez.

The original thread may have been deleted by the mods, I can't find it. But remember similar threads.
But there are vaguely similar ones, still on this forum.
They often talk about his 'Friend', NOT to be confused with an imaginary friend!   :-DD

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/dodgy-lighting-products-may-flood-after-brexit/msg2205420/#msg2205420

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/theft-of-electronics-i-p-to-start-rival-electronics-company/msg2324649/#msg2324649

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/small-uk-owned-streetlight-design-company-cannot-design-own-led-drivers/msg1723967/#msg1723967
 

Online coppice

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2020, 12:45:24 pm »
The fundamental limits are the speed of light (i.e. latency) and heat generation. We are pushing both: compare the heat flux with that in a kettle or nuclear reactor, and the time it takes a signal to get across a chip (worse: to another chiplet) with the clock period.
The speed of light is fundamental, but the heat generation we face is only a limit of current technology. The fundamental heat limits are far lower. Maybe we'll get there. Maybe we won't.
The AMD/intel chips (and SMP big iron) all rely on cache coherency. The messages associated with cache coherency protocols become a limiting factor: too many messages, too long latency.

There are a few techniques for not requiring cache coherency, e.g. CSP and descendents, or MapReduce etc. We need more techniques.
People have been saying this since 2 CPUs were first applied to a single problem, and the results so far have generally been poor. We certainly need to keep working hard on this, but I wouldn't plan my future around the expectation of massive improvements.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2020, 04:39:02 am »
I almost made it to 2 days before giving in the the click-bait title.

Can't say I was surprised at what I found.  But there was a little side content on processing cores that gave some brightness to the exercise.



Still, that's 4 minutes I'll never get back.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2020, 09:22:36 am »
The fundamental limits are the speed of light (i.e. latency) and heat generation. We are pushing both: compare the heat flux with that in a kettle or nuclear reactor, and the time it takes a signal to get across a chip (worse: to another chiplet) with the clock period.
The speed of light is fundamental, but the heat generation we face is only a limit of current technology. The fundamental heat limits are far lower. Maybe we'll get there. Maybe we won't.

If you are thinking of the energy-information equivalence, then I agree. Beyond that, my statement about heat generation is at the very least a good approximation :)

Quote
The AMD/intel chips (and SMP big iron) all rely on cache coherency. The messages associated with cache coherency protocols become a limiting factor: too many messages, too long latency.

There are a few techniques for not requiring cache coherency, e.g. CSP and descendents, or MapReduce etc. We need more techniques.
People have been saying this since 2 CPUs were first applied to a single problem, and the results so far have generally been poor. We certainly need to keep working hard on this, but I wouldn't plan my future around the expectation of massive improvements.

Agreed. The main point is to get the unwashed masses to realise there is an issue that can't be ignored, especially since simple semiconductor scaling has hit limits.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online coppice

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2020, 09:27:35 am »
The fundamental limits are the speed of light (i.e. latency) and heat generation. We are pushing both: compare the heat flux with that in a kettle or nuclear reactor, and the time it takes a signal to get across a chip (worse: to another chiplet) with the clock period.
The speed of light is fundamental, but the heat generation we face is only a limit of current technology. The fundamental heat limits are far lower. Maybe we'll get there. Maybe we won't.
If you are thinking of the energy-information equivalence, then I agree. Beyond that, my statement about heat generation is at the very least a good approximation :)
Vacuum tubes took huge power. TTL took less. NMOS took less. CMOS took less. The power limitations we see right now are a result of the technology we currently use, and that has seen several dramatic changes, and a whole lot of refinement. Your comment really assumes the electronics industry has reached the end of the road. I find that idea too depressing to accept without reason.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2020, 09:36:49 am »
The fundamental limits are the speed of light (i.e. latency) and heat generation. We are pushing both: compare the heat flux with that in a kettle or nuclear reactor, and the time it takes a signal to get across a chip (worse: to another chiplet) with the clock period.
The speed of light is fundamental, but the heat generation we face is only a limit of current technology. The fundamental heat limits are far lower. Maybe we'll get there. Maybe we won't.
If you are thinking of the energy-information equivalence, then I agree. Beyond that, my statement about heat generation is at the very least a good approximation :)
Vacuum tubes took huge power. TTL took less. NMOS took less. CMOS took less. The power limitations we see right now are a result of the technology we currently use, and that has seen several dramatic changes, and a whole lot of refinement. Your comment really assumes the electronics industry has reached the end of the road. I find that idea too depressing to accept without reason.

As you put it in the other context, "We certainly need to keep working hard on this, but I wouldn't plan my future around the expectation of massive improvements."
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Gregg

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2020, 12:51:05 am »
As you put it in the other context, "We certainly need to keep working hard on this, but I wouldn't plan my future around the expectation of massive improvements."
[/quote]

Wait for it

Just wait for Treez to show his super powers and become rich and famous.  :-DD :-DD
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2020, 04:15:08 am »
Can you get fine PWM granularity (e.g. 0.1ns) with XMOS xCores (external parts are fine)? Looks like regular PWM goes down to 10ns/core, which is kinda slow. Actual PWM frequency is much lower, below 2 MHz.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2020, 07:49:22 am »
Can you get fine PWM granularity (e.g. 0.1ns) with XMOS xCores (external parts are fine)? Looks like regular PWM goes down to 10ns/core, which is kinda slow. Actual PWM frequency is much lower, below 2 MHz.

I/O clocks can get 4ns resolution. I've no idea where you get the 2MHz from.

Of course you could add any external device to an xCORE MCU.

xCORE devices aren't magic. But they do get you predictable resolution and repeatability in software alone, along with significant parallelism.

For example, software can suck on a 100Mb/s ethernet serial stream and turn it into packets (or blow packets onto ethernet). At the same time you can be doing USB comms, DSP and front panel control. All with guaranteed throughput, latency and jitter.

No other MCU could get close to that, but obviously an FPGA could. Clearly xCORE won't replace FPGAs, but in some cases they can offer similar advantages to those that are comfortable with software.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline ANTALIFE

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2020, 05:41:04 am »
treez/10

Offline KaneTW

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2020, 07:36:42 am »
I mostly meant for my application, I need a PWM freq of < 2 MHz. Basically just wondering if there's a way to get high resolution PWM on one of these.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2020, 09:15:01 am »
Guys -- while the merit of the original post in this thread is debatable, I still think it is very impolite to hijack a thread the way you do. Also, if your discussion is meant to have value (rather than just to troll treez), it should be moved to a suitably titled separate thread, so that others can find it now and in the future.
 

Offline Koen

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2020, 09:25:53 am »
People Who Say It Cannot Be Done Should Not Interrupt Those Who Are Doing It
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2020, 09:30:25 am »
...while the merit of the original post in this thread is debatable, I still think it is very impolite to hijack a thread the way you do. ...

Q1: does one[1] debatable post "merit" thread drift? Q2: is thread drift to be condemned? The thread-drift posts are polite, convey technical information and are perfectly in keeping with this forum.

Answers on a postcard, preferably >/dev/null :)

[1] a lot more than one, IMNSHO - and usually on multiple forums!
For example, the text of these two are very similar (perhaps identical before one was edited), although for some reason the titles differ:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/no-y-capacitors-in-our-common-mode-filter-because-the-smps-is-non-isolated/msg2982590/#msg2982590
https://www.edaboard.com/showthread.php?389321-Non-isolated-SMPS-does-not-need-Y-capacitors
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2020, 10:27:35 am »
People Who Say It Cannot Be Done Should Not Interrupt Those Who Are Doing It

I think you misunderstood that stock phrase.
 

Offline Koen

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2020, 10:34:38 am »
No, I See The Forest For The Treez.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Easy money...£200k/yr job in electronics?
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2020, 02:54:02 pm »
The whole thing might just be utter bullshit.

But don't discourage treez here IMO. He's clearly been so miserable in his current job for months or even years, that any change would do him good. Even if it's a dead-end proposal, that might just be akick in the butt that will make him change his career path drastically. Just a thought.

Of course I don't want to be partly responsible for him getting unemployed after a bad decision and unable to find a new job. ::)
 


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