eBay's purchase protection program doesn't really work!

[DiTBho]

So I bought qty=8, Seagate Barracuda ST500DM002 500GB 7200rpm s/ATA hard-drives on eBay. In the listing, they were described as "never used", which should mean less than 40 hours when testing the unit, however upon inspection with professional testing (GNU/Linux diskutils-) tools three units were found to have run for over ~6000 hours (still with NTFS files in them, not even deleted) and one unit for more than 400 hours, and it is unacceptable that the seller does not try to solve the problem, like

- Sorry, can I offer a replacement or refund for defective discs? (a serious seller "should" react this way)

Absolutely not, that guy is the classic dude that doesn't care other people time and projects, and on the contrary he only cares about his own NEGATIVE feedback, his own holidays or whatever bullshit he invents, without any care for the customer!

Worse, it is unacceptable that, after providing all the evidence, screenshots of the tests and copies of the various requests made to the seller, all of which were ignored or prevaricated, eBay closes the case without any explanation.

• Return reason: Doesn't match description or photos
• Seller: mr "1963-06"
• Return case: escalated to eBay Customer Support
• Result: Return closed, no reason specified -> eBay protection program failed

eBay really doesn't seem like a serious place to me, maybe I'm repeating something obvious, but damn how much these things irritate me: "item not as described + evidence"  sometimes doesn't work!

[DiTBho]

this stuff was for an experimental RAID, which I was supposed to develop and test in mid-September, and it doesn't matter... I can also work with those HDDs because at least they don't have badblocks, but it's a matter of principle that I really don't like!

I'm quite unlucky with HDDs, every time I have to struggle to get *exactly* the things I read the description for

[Stray Electron]

  Ebay listing #?

[DiTBho]

It's this one!

I copy the item description here:

Seagate Barracuda ST500DM002 500GB 7200 Sata 3-show original title
Condition: Opened – never used
“Neu bzw. Neuwertig. Alle Platten sind in original schutzfolie mit original Siegel versehen”

Item specifics
Condition, Opened – never used
Seller notes
“Neu bzw. Neuwertig. Alle Platten sind in original schutzfolie mit original Siegel versehen”
Höhe
20 mm
Unterstützte Laufwerktypen
HDD
Speicherart
HDD Only
Besonderheiten
HDD
Marke
Seagate
Modell
ST500DM002
Breite
101,6 mm
Herstellernummer
ST500DM002
Länge
147 mm
Umdrehungsgeschwindigkeit
7200 RPM
Speicherkapazität
500 GB
Datenübertragungsrate
1695 MB/s
Herstellergarantie
Keine
Formfaktor
3,5 Zoll
Segate Barracuda 3,5 Zoll 500GB Sata III
Seagate Barracuda 3,5 Zoll 500GB
Produktart
Intern (Desktop)
Lesegeschwindigkeit
600 MB/s
Cache
16 MB
Produktlinie
Barracuda
Herstellungsland und -region
Unbekannt
Kompatibel mit
PC
Schnittstelle
SATA III
Farbe
Silber
EAN
5711045118791
Item description from the seller

Business seller information
Halil Akgün
Halil Akgün
Dröpkeweg.5
12353 Berlin
Germany

Condition - Opened, never used - sure, so what if eBay dudes came to you and asked for photos? what are you going to photograph to demonstrate that you have 7000 hours of work on some of them and several GB of files? 

[JohanH]

That's why I don't buy used disks any more. It's practically impossible to prove that e.g. screenshots of disk age is from the actual disk that you bought. Could be forged easily. So it's word against word.

A long time ago I won an auction for some used SCSI disks for a bargain, probably because nobody else bid on them. The seller began to protest that I got them too cheap. In the end I ended up paying a little more for them, because he refused to ship them. What an ass.

[JohanH]

If it's "opened, never used" it certainly sounds like a scam.

[DiTBho]

Another totally unreliable thing, the "accurate description" rating, from one to five stars of five stars, which usually never corresponds to reality!

Like, last month I bought some wheels for my bicycle, requested as "this marvelous set of Campagnolo Lambda wheels have no bumps, they are straight and have done a few km, the brake tracks are in excellent condition", and they arrived

• with a deep scratch on the front rim
• with both the rear and front braking surfaces very worn

A sign that it is NOT true that they have done a few km, or rather "a few" should mean < ~100K, while to produce that wear they have done at least >5000km!

Even in that case the seller proved to be dishonest and not at all inclined to solve the problem, so I turned to eBay customer service, and in that case as defects could be photographed on physical objects rather than on the screen of a testing program, I took photos of the defects, and eBay refunded me.

[DiTBho]

If it's "opened, never used" it certainly sounds like a scam.

There's a seller named PitBull-something. Unfortunately, they only sell SCSI or FB disks. I must have bought something like qty=200 HDDs, some for me, some for friends. Never a single problem!

When it tells you "open, never used", it means exactly what it's telling you:
- we picked it up from a warehouse, from a pallet that contained 50 HDDs
- stacked together each in a thin protective shell
- therefore disks have undergone various movements from one warehouse to another
- each disk was found sealed into an antistatic bag with the procucer's seal
- before listing on eBay, we opened each bag to check with badblocks that everything is fine with the disk
- so each disc will come to you with maximum 40 hours of operation(1)
- re-packaged into an antistatic bag with our logo-seal

which is both serious and honest, therefore acceptable!


(1) testing 500GB with badblocks may require 8-10 hours

[Jackster]

Something is not adding up here...

I am an experienced eBay seller. Whenever I get a claim brought up against an order from a buyer, it always defaults to the buyer being awarded the refund and the seller either being charged for a return or being required to provide funds for return shipping or uploading a shipping label.
If the seller does not respond, eBay steps in and awards the buyer the refund, taking it straight out of the seller's bank account.
If the seller does respond, the seller has to provide an outstanding amount of evidence to counter the claim.

eBay protection is heavily favoured on the buyer's side and they know it and abuse it.

Sellers can list "for parts not working" and the buyer can make a claim saying "it does not work" and be awarded the refund.

[DiTBho]

Something is not adding up here...

I am an experienced eBay seller. Whenever I get a claim brought up against an order from a buyer, it always defaults to the buyer being awarded the refund and the seller either being charged for a return or being required to provide funds for return shipping or uploading a shipping label.
If the seller does not respond, eBay steps in and awards the buyer the refund, taking it straight out of the seller's bank account.
If the seller does respond, the seller has to provide an outstanding amount of evidence to counter the claim.

eBay protection is heavily favoured on the buyer's side and they know it and abuse it.

Sellers can list "for parts not working" and the buyer can make a claim saying "it does not work" and be awarded the refund.

Sure, something is not adding up here, and I would like to understand why eBay closed the request WITHOUT giving any reason!

This is the second time something similar has happened to me with IT products, that is, when I CANNOT take a photo of the defect on the object because to show the defect I have to take a screenshot of a computer program.

So what the frog here? *THE* point is: why put things on sale that claim false things? eh? "never used disks when they have 7000 hours?"

WHAT
THE
FROG

How much time do they waste with that? eh?

[DiTBho]

umm, now that you make me think about it..., you can't even prove that you get a busted bearing (bicycle part, 1 year ago), because what can you photograph when you can't take it apart?

Sealed bearing, I don't even have the equipment to dismantle it from the hub, and it's not even trivial. It was a defective Chorus sealed bearing front hub from 1998, listed as "very good condition", which sure, aesthetically it was exactly like the photo in the eBay listing, too bad it had broken bearings

So, 60+15 S/H euros wasted, another rip-off I got, as eBay closed the case as "that's your business".

At this point, as far as I understand, you just have to pray that the seller doesn't respond, so eBay will refund you automatically.

... maybe

[Fraser]

I believe I know what has happened here.

You bought the disks with your understanding of “opened, never used” and that was an understandable view that the disks were unused, with no serious hours on them.

The seller stated the following in his auction……

“New or as good as new

All plates are in the original protective film and originally sealed”

I suspect that the eBay claim assessor saw your description of the problem and viewed it as unwarranted as all of the drives tested as working. They did not consider the hours run on the drives as a valid reason to award the claim to you. “As good as new” can be misinterpreted if it only related a to physical condition. If the drives had actual failures noted in the tests then I believe eBay would have found in your favour. This is not fair to you but the eBay claim agent may not be technical and may not appreciate that hours run on a drive most definitely affects whether it may be described as new or “as good as new”. EBay look for physical failures or cosmetic damage, not HDD SMART reports. They view it as “the drives are clearly working with no recorded errors so what are you complaining about”.

I buy used hard drives for projects where I cannot justify buying a new drive. If I need a drive for archiving or other important duties I buy brand new from a reliable source. There are too many people playing games on eBay these days and I do not need the hassle or wasting of my time sorting the mess out with eBay !

As a side note, I have thankfully not had too many problems with sellers in the past but in the last 2 years eBay has become like the Wild West with all sorts of shenanigans from sellers, including refusal to ship at the final price and also demanding additional money before shipping. No surprises that eBay have always promptly refunded me as my cases were pretty black & white with plenty of evidence of wrong doing on the eBay messaging system.

Sadly at my old age of 56 I very much believe in reporting these wrong doers to eBay, leaving carefully worded hard core negative feedback and moving on with my life. Getting stressed over a bad seller is really not worth it these days. A deep breath and move on with life is my recommendation.

Fraser

[rdl]

I haven't really used eBay in almost 10 years so I could be misremembering but it seems at one time they didn't allow using wording such as "like new" or "good as new". An item was either new or it wasn't. Maybe that has changed.

[DiTBho]

I haven't really used eBay in almost 10 years so I could be misremembering but it seems at one time they didn't allow using wording such as "like new" or "good as new". An item was either new or it wasn't. Maybe that has changed.

I don't know, I've never understood, but many people do it in their listing on eBay, creating quite a bit of confusion.

I bought a titanium Speedwell frame for around 3000 euros, described "like new", which might make sense given that it is an object from the 80s, kept in storage for more than how many? 40 years? Naturally, although it has never been mounted, it is not "new" as it has some signs of movement, and of course you have to fix the threads.

However, given the enormous amount to shell out, I traveled almost 900 km to go and see it and collect it in person, then loading it on a plane on the way back.

The seller was honest, in fact he described the item "like new" when it was *actually* new! That is, he remained in its wooden house for 40 years, which no one had ever touched.

- - -

However, I also came across a multimeter described as "like new" which had broken bushings and various cracks on the cover. In short, definitely used! OK, you can replace the bushings, ok you can replace the cover, but... that's not the correct description!

[Stray Electron]

    Ebay does now allow "New - Open Box" category. See https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/listings/creating-managing-listings/item-conditions-category?id=4765.  Among other things, the description says "may have been used for testing or demo purposes." But I don't think that 6000+ hours of run time fits that description. 

     IMO the seller should have refunded the purchaser's price on the three used disks but the sale was so long ago that I can't find a record of it on E-bay.  I wonder if the OP waited too long to file a complaint with Ebay?  There is no date or valid auction number in the information that he provided. 

[wraper]

Why would you even buy that garbage? Those drives are unreliable trash. I'd have more trust in cheap Chinese SSD rather than those.

[thm_w]

    Ebay does now allow "New - Open Box" category. See https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/listings/creating-managing-listings/item-conditions-category?id=4765.  Among other things, the description says "may have been used for testing or demo purposes." But I don't think that 6000+ hours of run time fits that description. 

Yes. Item condition category is the important thing here, IMO.

I don't know whats up with OPs link or if its a ebay region thing, but if I go here: https://www.ebay.de/p/12061230791 It says "Item condition: New".
If that is the case then OP is justified and easily would have won the ebay case if they said condition did not match, just provide a photo of the received drives.
But if they listed it as "Used" then I wouldn't waste my time either buying it thinking it was new, or arguing over it.

[SiliconWizard]

Used HDDs would be the last thing I'd buy from eBay. I've bought used CPUs, motherboards and RAM with little to no problem, but it's always a bit of a gamble.
I have in the past, but won't buy anything "new" on eBay. It's often either not actually new, or prices for *really* new stuff are totally unreasonable compared to other platforms. If some items are tagged new on eBay and prices look very attractive, then there's a 99.9% probability that it's used gear, maybe not even tested.

Never had to use purchase protection, so no opinion there. From my experience, the best setup is to directly deal with the seller via message. Had mixed experience, but that's to be expected. Some will fully refund with no question, some will partially refund, some will offer a discount on your next purchase.

[soldar]

In my personal experience both eBay and Paypal are crap and a pain to deal with if you have any problems but I only buy low value items so I am not too concerned.

I buy a lot from China and I have generally had no problems and got a fast refund if the item was not received which has happened a few times.

One time I bought an 18V 10 A switching power supply and it did not arrive so I wrote the seller and he responded with a tirade of insults calling me a liar and "worse than an animal". It was funny. I claimed from eBay and got a prompt refund. Then, a few days after that, and after I got a replacement elsewhere, the item arrived. Normally I would have told the seller but given what had happened I just kept it. It is still in the box, unwrapped.

I also buy a lot from the USA with shipping to a USA address and, again, I generally have not had major problems but because of the buyers, not because of eBay. Once I bought a couple 750GB HDD and when I got them and tried them they got awfully hot. I told the seller and he offered to send me another two but when I got them they also ran very hot. I just let the thing slide. I use those HDD for backups and applications where they will not be running for very long periods of time.

I recently bought a desktop from Germany and everything went well but I generally avoid buying in Europe and this for several reasons. I have had bad experiences with Spanish sellers, items from UK are too expensive and too expensive to ship, etc.

But when I have had problems either with eBay or Paypal they have been a royal PITA. 

I only buy. I have thought of selling but I do not need that aggravation.

In America Amazon works very well.

I have family and friends who come often and they always bring me a load of purchases. In fact, I will be collecting a load of goodies arriving on Friday.

[MrMobodies]

I always test them with MHDD in dos to identify slow or bad sectors.
Did it come sealed in an anti static bag?

If it is suppose to be new and it has bad sectors with signs of overheating (like the colors of the metal around the screw on the pcb, fingerprint marks and is sealed into an anti static bag to make it looked brand new I'd be on the phone to Ebay that it is fraud//misselling.

With 6000 hours, that's 250 days nearly a year. Misrepresentation maybe?

If it is openbox it has been removing from it's original packaging BUT powered on/utilized and used for testing then how can it be clased as new?

Ebay does now allow "New - Open Box" category. See https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/listings/creating-managing-listings/item-conditions-category?id=4765.  Among other things, the description says "may have been used for testing or demo purposes." But I don't think that 6000+ hours of run time fits that description. 

New—open box: The item is in excellent, new condition with no functional defects. The item may be missing original packaging and may have been used for testing or demo purposes. The item includes accessories found with the original product and may include a warranty. See the seller's listing for full details and a description

I'd be on the phone to them that it has been used for nearly a year.

[DiTBho]

Why would you even buy that garbage? Those drives are unreliable trash.
I'd have more trust in cheap Chinese SSD rather than those.

Why do you say that?
Many years ago I bought qty=32 of those Seagate Barracuda ST500DM002, never experienced a problem!

I specifically looked for that model because I know how it works, and 500Gb is more than enough for what I need to do:
1) put qty=4 of those disks into my sATA to SCSI box, which does not accept disks larger than 500GB
2) develop and test my own filesystem, this  time  with RAID support

[DiTBho]

Used HDDs would be the last thing I'd buy from eBay

Where do you buy 2010 NOS s/ATA HDDs?
I rely on a physical store for NOS SCSI and FB disks, but they don't have sATA or SAS disks.

[DiTBho]

In my personal experience both eBay and Paypal are crap and a pain to deal with if you have any problems but I only buy low value items so I am not too concerned.

bad news, I just found out that now when you buy on eBay and pay with Paypal you can no longer file a complaint with Paypal as they redirect the complaint to eBay

it could be done before, and it was a double guarantee 

I buy a lot from China and I have generally had no problems and got a fast refund if the item was not received which has happened a few times.

I bought something like qty=50 Hitachi 4GB micridrives from China ... and in loop they continued to send boxes of 10 pieces, of which then 4..5 were always defective, and they sent others as replacements... I spent a few months constantly receiving packages and testing those damn things, until we finally had all those bloody 50 functioning units within the required specifications.

yes, honest (out of eBay, paid with Paypal), but those I did business with have appalling shallow QA.

[SiliconWizard]

eBay and PayPal have parted ways as far as I've understood, so yeah there is no real benefit using PayPal now.

[Shock]

You can normally appeal ebays decision within 30 days. The buyers appeal process is mentioned in the help, keyword
"appeal" will find it.