Author Topic: EEVblog&some other YouTube channels, no longer free, at best (HD) quality levels  (Read 11947 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MK14Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
On reflection, I think what has happened, is that some internet things, because the internet is still relatively new, compared to many things in life.  Have started out free, so YouTube has been free for a very long time.
But really costs a lots of money to run, needing lots of computers/servers, man power, premises, taxes and other bills to pay, big electricity bills, and all sorts of other costs.

They were getting some money, from advertisers, but some sources seem to say that, that has been declining, for various reasons, over the years.

So just like many other things in life, such as electricity bills, Petrol/Gas for cars, etc.  It needs paying for.

Not to mention, some of the YouTube producers, also want to earn money from the videos.

So I can't really insist or suggest, that it remains entirely free for ever.
 

Offline MK14Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
To many people (I think) and some countries, the £12.99 per Month, is not going to happen, as it is too expensive, compared to their available resources.

That's the thing, YouTube have different prices for Premium in different countries. Here in the UK, our price is one of the highest. People are getting Premium for greatly reduced prices by using a VPN, etc and signing up as if they were in a different country. (It escapes me right now which countries have a much cheaper price - India? Turkey?)

For me personally, if Premium were more like £5-6 per month, I would pay for it, but not at £12.99.

That is exactly how I feel.  £12.99 per month, just seems too much.  But £5-6 per month, is a lot more palatable.

Given that Amazon Prime monthly rate (paying yearly would be cheaper, overall), seems to be currently £8.99 per month, I can't see how YouTube can justify the £12.99, as Amazon Prime has a Video service and much more, included with the Prime subscription.

Interesting idea, to use a VPN and sign up for (as if you were in) another country.  I've heard about a similar concept for other thing(s), as well.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 12:17:07 pm by MK14 »
 
The following users thanked this post: splin

Offline AndyBeez

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: nu
Would be interesting to see some analytics on the size of device screens channels are consumed on. For those with 82inch 8K media walls, resolution kills. But when most people are watching on tablets or max, a 27 inch monitor, regular HD is ample: Especially when they are watching for the content quality and not raging against the decompression artefacts on the edge of some building in the background. Premium is for a group of people with a specific use case. Maybe sports and gaming consumers with deep pockets? So will YT be expecting content makers to master in HD or 4K at 60fps?
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline Veteran68

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 727
  • Country: us
That's the thing, YouTube have different prices for Premium in different countries. Here in the UK, our price is one of the highest. People are getting Premium for greatly reduced prices by using a VPN, etc and signing up as if they were in a different country. (It escapes me right now which countries have a much cheaper price - India? Turkey?)

For me personally, if Premium were more like £5-6 per month, I would pay for it, but not at £12.99.

That's like $16.50 USD, which does seem a little steep. I wonder if the differences in fees have to do with geographic tariffs, or buffers against exchange rate fluctuations.

Here in the US, I've been paying $11.99 USD for at least the last few years (maybe started at $9.99? Don't recall). They just announced a price increase to $13.99 effective on my next bill later this month, which I wasn't crazy about. But most all of my other streaming services have gone up recently too, so it's understandable and largely inevitable. As I mentioned before, we have a LOT of streaming services in my household. I'm paying somewhere north of $150/month for Netflix, Hulu+Disney+ESPN (no ads), HBO Max, Showtime, Shudder (my own guilty pleasure), Peacock, Paramount+, and probably some others I can't think of. That's NOT counting Amazon Prime since I've subscribed pretty much since its inception, long before they offered streaming, for its other benefits. And I rarely watch any of them other than YT. So I consider it a drop in the bucket for the value I get out of it.

Would be interesting to see some analytics on the size of device screens channels are consumed on. For those with 82inch 8K media walls, resolution kills. But when most people are watching on tablets or max, a 27 inch monitor, regular HD is ample: Especially when they are watching for the content quality and not raging against the decompression artefacts on the edge of some building in the background. Premium is for a group of people with a specific use case. Maybe sports and gaming consumers with deep pockets? So will YT be expecting content makers to master in HD or 4K at 60fps?

In my basement office at home, I have a 4x monitor setup on my main workstation consisting of 3x 27" monitors (2K+4K+2K) and a 43" 4K monitor on the wall above those 3 monitors. I do the vast majority of my YT viewing on that 43" 4K monitor while I'm working on other things. I also have a 75" Sony on the other side of the basement which I'll also watch YT on sometimes. So resolution is important to me. I will occasionally watch on my laptop/MacBook or iPad. I seldom watch YT on my phone unless it's just a lecture thing I can listen to, as I just can't get into postage stamp sized videos.

Side note: when we need to keep the dogs occupied in the basement (when we have a lot of company, for example), we'll turn on a pet-centric YT channel on that 75" Sony. It's fun to watch them sometimes get into a video of other dogs/animals. There's a surprising number of niche YT channels for odd things like this.
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline asmi

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2861
  • Country: ca
Over here in Canada they are increasing price to 12.99 CAD/month from September, before that it was 11.99 CAD/month
« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 02:18:17 pm by asmi »
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline langwadt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4857
  • Country: dk
To many people (I think) and some countries, the £12.99 per Month, is not going to happen, as it is too expensive, compared to their available resources.

That's the thing, YouTube have different prices for Premium in different countries. Here in the UK, our price is one of the highest. People are getting Premium for greatly reduced prices by using a VPN, etc and signing up as if they were in a different country. (It escapes me right now which countries have a much cheaper price - India? Turkey?)

For me personally, if Premium were more like £5-6 per month, I would pay for it, but not at £12.99.

That is exactly how I feel.  £12.99 per month, just seems too much.  But £5-6 per month, is a lot more palatable.

Given that Amazon Prime monthly rate (paying yearly would be cheaper, overall), seems to be currently £8.99 per month, I can't see how YouTube can justify the £12.99, as Amazon Prime has a Video service and much more, included with the Prime subscription.

Interesting idea, to use a VPN and sign up for (as if you were in) another country.  I've heard about a similar concept for other thing(s), as well.

here it is £13.80 at the current exchange rate, apperently by using  a vpn to sign up with a ukraine postcode and payment in Ukrainian Hryvni you can get it for ~£2.80
 
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline MK14Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
here it is £13.80 at the current exchange rate, apperently by using  a vpn to sign up with a ukraine postcode and payment in Ukrainian Hryvni you can get it for ~£2.80

That's crazy.

But I can understand, why they would want to vary the price levels, depending on the 'value' (how rich) particular countries are (or not).

If computers were £500 here (they can be), and identically specced somewhat high/medium end computers, were £90.  If it was fully legal, I suspect I might be getting my computer from Ukraine, in the same way, some people get cheap stuff from China.

When searching about this YouTube Premium for this thread, I did come across (but didn't read it), mention of YouTube premium being split between cheap, low cost tiers and expensive, full Premium YouTube services.

Maybe that would be an affordable way around this, assuming the low cost version, gives enough functionality.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 02:59:32 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline Kim Christensen

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1819
  • Country: ca
But I can understand, why they would want to vary the price levels, depending on the 'value' (how rich) particular countries are (or not).

It's a typical pricing strategy. Production costs put a floor under the price, but the consumer's ability and willingness to pay defines the upper bound.

 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline MK14Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
But I can understand, why they would want to vary the price levels, depending on the 'value' (how rich) particular countries are (or not).

It's a typical pricing strategy. Production costs put a floor under the price, but the consumer's ability and willingness to pay defines the upper bound.

My impression, with other (usually physically for sale items) has been that although there are regional price variations between different countries.  The price doesn't really change that much (as a percentage), especially when you take what features are included with the item(s), e.g. a car.

But these price variations, seem extremely wild to me.  A ball-park peek 1,000% variation between some countries and the UK.

It is a bit like, when some (low end) Fluke multimeters, are (let's say) £175 in the UK, and an essentially identically looking and specced model (fractionally different model number, not thought to make a real difference in practice, except perhaps country of manufacture), is perhaps only £75 (equivalent) in China.

I.e. The so called grey market.

In the same way, I said that having the top 1080p resolution (bit-rate), being unavailable to non-premium YouTube account holders, can be annoying.  Paying £12.99 per month, when others for exactly the same service and capabilities, can get it for only perhaps £1.50 or £2.50, would also be rather annoying.

I do concede the (currently) 20% VAT (UK sales tax if you like), does explain some of the price differences, between the US and UK.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 03:30:28 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline langwadt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4857
  • Country: dk
But I can understand, why they would want to vary the price levels, depending on the 'value' (how rich) particular countries are (or not).

It's a typical pricing strategy. Production costs put a floor under the price, but the consumer's ability and willingness to pay defines the upper bound.

you can also look at it as the rich consumer subsidizing the poorer consumer
 

Offline asmi

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2861
  • Country: ca
My impression, with other (usually physically for sale items) has been that although there are regional price variations between different countries.  The price doesn't really change that much (as a percentage), especially when you take what features are included with the item(s), e.g. a car.

But these price variations, seem extremely wild to me.  A ball-park peek 1,000% variation between some countries and the UK.
That's been like that forever. Most Steam games have regional pricing, which varies quite extensively between countries. Perhaps the most famous example of it is a "Big Mac Index". Another case is airplane tickets, where you can have two people sitting next to each other, who paid wildly different fares. The basic premise is the same - each business tries to sell a product or service for the highest price a customer will pay.

Offline MK14Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
That's been like that forever. Most Steam games have regional pricing, which varies quite extensively between countries. Perhaps the most famous example of it is a "Big Mac Index". Another case is airplane tickets, where you can have two people sitting next to each other, who paid wildly different fares. The basic premise is the same - each business tries to sell a product or service for the highest price a customer will pay.

That is true.
Even within the UK, there can be quite a lot of price variation, for the same thing, in some, fairly rare circumstances.

E.g. Let's say someone is selling their car, privately.

In a well off (rich) part of the UK and/or where that particular car is regionally popular, it is rumoured that you can get a bit more for the car, compared to some of the less well-off areas and/or where that car is less popular.

If someone goes to a very expensive part of London, it can cost quite a bit, for a restaurant meal.  But if you go to a much cheaper area (different part of UK), it can cost a lot less, for what is in principal identical meals.

On the one hand, I have to agree with you.  But on the other, it just seems so unfair.

Quote from: langwadt link=topic=388282.msg5006404#msg5006404

you can also look at it as the rich consumer subsidizing the poorer consumer

I have mixed feelings on that.  In some ways, it is sort of fair (people paying what they can afford), but also somewhat unfair, at the same time.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 03:58:35 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline vad

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 518
  • Country: us
But I can understand, why they would want to vary the price levels, depending on the 'value' (how rich) particular countries are (or not).

It's a typical pricing strategy. Production costs put a floor under the price, but the consumer's ability and willingness to pay defines the upper bound.

My impression, with other (usually physically for sale items) has been that although there are regional price variations between different countries.  The price doesn't really change that much (as a percentage), especially when you take what features are included with the item(s), e.g. a car.

That depends.

The same physical goods that I know cost $25 Aussie dollars in Australia, 50 SGD in Singapore, and $190 in the US.

I am talking about a prescription medication. In Australia and Singapore, those are prices for the original brand. The US price is for the generic version.

I assume the Australian price could be subsidized by taxpayers, but in Singapore they do not do that. Singapore has a GDP per capita higher than that of the US and Australia.
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline langwadt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4857
  • Country: dk
That's been like that forever. Most Steam games have regional pricing, which varies quite extensively between countries. Perhaps the most famous example of it is a "Big Mac Index". Another case is airplane tickets, where you can have two people sitting next to each other, who paid wildly different fares. The basic premise is the same - each business tries to sell a product or service for the highest price a customer will pay.

That is true.
Even within the UK, there can be quite a lot of price variation, for the same thing, in some, fairly rare circumstances.

E.g. Let's say someone is selling their car, privately.

In a well off (rich) part of the UK and/or where that particular car is regionally popular, it is rumoured that you can get a bit more for the car, compared to some of the less well-off areas and/or where that car is less popular.

If someone goes to a very expensive part of London, it can cost quite a bit, for a restaurant meal.  But if you go to a much cheaper area (different part of UK), it can cost a lot less, for what is in principal identical meals.

The restaurant's rent and cost of labor is probably quite different too ..


On the one hand, I have to agree with you.  But on the other, it just seems so unfair.

Quote from: langwadt link=topic=388282.msg5006404#msg5006404

you can also look at it as the rich consumer subsidizing the poorer consumer

I have mixed feelings on that.  In some ways, it is sort of fair (people paying what they can afford), but also somewhat unfair, at the same time.

ignore the amount of money and see it as how minutes/hours someone has to work to pay that amount

 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline MK14Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
That depends.

The same physical goods that I know cost $25 Aussie dollars in Australia, 50 SGD in Singapore, and $190 in the US.

I am talking about a prescription medication. In Australia and Singapore, those are prices for the original brand. The US price is for the generic version.

I assume the Australian price could be subsidized by taxpayers, but in Singapore they do not do that. Singapore has a GDP per capita higher than that of the US and Australia.

Yes, that does sound a lot like, some business(s) are ripping people off in some countries.

It makes me feel that the governments, of those (apparently extortionately priced countries), should do a lot more, to fix the situation.

YouTube could theoretically, in the future, make a bigger and more forceful push, into getting users to join the paid Premium Service.  E.g. Limiting free access, to just a few videos, per IP address, per day or week, and stuff like that.
 

Offline MK14Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
Quote
If someone goes to a very expensive part of London, it can cost quite a bit, for a restaurant meal.  But if you go to a much cheaper area (different part of UK), it can cost a lot less, for what is in principal identical meals.

The restaurant's rent and cost of labor is probably quite different too ..

Very true.  In that respect, it wasn't a very good example, on my part.

Quote
I have mixed feelings on that.  In some ways, it is sort of fair (people paying what they can afford), but also somewhat unfair, at the same time.

ignore the amount of money and see it as how minutes/hours someone has to work to pay that amount

That's also a good point.

On the other hand, the very, very poor country, maybe should accept that their buying power, is a lot less effective, than the buying power, of a very, very wealthy country.  So, some kind of difference between the hours/minutes work, needed for stuff, is therefore relatively acceptable.

Otherwise, we would end up turning the entire world, into some kind of communist/socialist singularity.
 

Offline langwadt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4857
  • Country: dk
Quote
If someone goes to a very expensive part of London, it can cost quite a bit, for a restaurant meal.  But if you go to a much cheaper area (different part of UK), it can cost a lot less, for what is in principal identical meals.

The restaurant's rent and cost of labor is probably quite different too ..

Very true.  In that respect, it wasn't a very good example, on my part.

Quote
I have mixed feelings on that.  In some ways, it is sort of fair (people paying what they can afford), but also somewhat unfair, at the same time.

ignore the amount of money and see it as how minutes/hours someone has to work to pay that amount

That's also a good point.

On the other hand, the very, very poor country, maybe should accept that their buying power, is a lot less effective, than the buying power, of a very, very wealthy country.  So, some kind of difference between the hours/minutes work, needed for stuff, is therefore relatively acceptable.

Otherwise, we would end up turning the entire world, into some kind of communist/socialist singularity.

google says average hourly wage in Ukraine is ~£2.80

if the price of YT premium was £13, more than half a days work, you are probably not going to sell any

what people can and will pay for something, sets the price
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline AndyBeez

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: nu
As you say, it depends on what people can pay. Or at least, what 'utility' they place on what they are buying at a given price. Territory pricing strategies might seem a little asymmetric, but that's what happens when businesses are trying to increase a share in a country. Ukraine is not such a good example as their economy is screwed right now. Although they do have very fast internet, I hear.

So what makes this 'service' any different from those from Netflix, Amazon Prime, Apple TV or even Bloomberg? Is there anything different, new or exclusive about the vlog content? Or is it just a marketing segmentation for tech bunnies with big pockets - and cheap electricity. Maybe we are looping back to the glory days when movies on Blue Ray cost far more than ordinary DVDs because, "you can watch Top Gun in full high definition on your brand new wall mounted plasma." Instead of watching in DVD or VHS bootleg quality on a cathode ray cube. Same movie, different television.

 8) I HAVE A NEED FOR SPEED
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline MK14Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
google says average hourly wage in Ukraine is ~£2.80

if the price of YT premium was £13, more than half a days work, you are probably not going to sell any

what people can and will pay for something, sets the price

I guess there is not a perfect answer, that would make everyone happy, all of the time.

Some companies, would fix their prices (exchange rate and laws aside), to be exactly the same, regardless of which county was involved.  Others, would change their prices, to reflect the needs of each individual country, just like the figures you just gave.

I suspect, when it is an actual physical item, such as an aeroplane, which costs significant time, money and resources to manufacture.  The prices would be much more similar.  Possibly using things like significant variation in what features are and are not, included, probably would change though, which changes the overall price.

E.g. Big expensive engines for rich countries, and smaller, less powerful, but cheaper engines, for less well-off countries, along with minimalistic feature sets, rather than a full set of pilot and navigation aids, which can add to the overall cost.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39026
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
I assume the Australian price could be subsidized by taxpayers, but in Singapore they do not do that.

Yes, we have mostly subsidised medicine under the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS)
https://www.pbs.gov.au/pbs/home

I just picked on drug at random:
https://www.pbs.gov.au/medicine/item/8300W
$982 down to $30
Aspirin:
https://www.pbs.gov.au/medicine/item/10590J-8202Q
$15 down to $7.30
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Online NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9323
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
I think returning to P2P would be the best alternative to Youtube. Full master quality and it scales very well even to a huge number of users.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline MK14Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
I think returning to P2P would be the best alternative to Youtube. Full master quality and it scales very well even to a huge number of users.

But then there would potentially be at least seven major problems, with such a system:

  • All sorts of possible security risks.  Because you would effectively have, direct IP to IP address communications, between 'random' users
  • The personal information of the users could leak out, especially their IP address, hence country and possibly other information
  • It would put a drain on each users internet and computer device, which wouldn't be ok, for everyone.  E.g. Mobile device users
  • Copyright holders, could sniff out users who are accessing their copyright claimed stuff.  Then complain to the authorities.  Possibly then writing nasty letters, possibly from solicitors, about them accessing the copyright holders stuff, along with fines.  As I understand it, this has happened before
  • Governments, Political Activist and Hackers, could attempt to hijack and take over the entire eco-system, especially in certain countries.  Perhaps with a strong political agenda
  • The original company (YouTube etc), could lose control of the whole thing (network), in all sorts of ways.  Which also relates to point 1 above (Security)
  • It maybe could be manipulated/hacked/used to spread illegal files, out of the control of the original company, with various techniques.  This also relates to item 1 (security)
 

Online NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9323
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
See Tor and I2P for secure P2P protocols. It is a solvable problem.

Another way that scales up readily is IP multicasting.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline MK14Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
See Tor and I2P for secure P2P protocols. It is a solvable problem.

Another way that scales up readily is IP multicasting.

As I understand it, Tor is not a P2P network, it uses other techniques.

One possible source:
https://tor.stackexchange.com/questions/4762/is-tor-a-p2p-network

But in principal, if done right and well.  I think you have got a good point.  There are a number of modern techniques, which if properly handled and executed, could reduce a number of the issues, I mentioned above.

Edit:
But on the other hand.  Video content, can need a huge amount of data bandwidth, there can be a crazily huge amount of data storage involved, overall.  Especially including long, very rarely watched videos.
I don't even want to try and imagine, how vast the storage space needed to store every single video on YouTube, would actually be.

Also, at peak times and/or when an extremely popular video, has just come onto the respective platform.  I think it needs some serious computing, storage, networking and software horse power.  To completely smoothly, handle such situations, without the slightest frame being dropped, here and there.

Sometimes, it is way too easy to take such giant, and highly complicated technical achievements, too much for granted.

E.g. Tor has got a bad reputation for being rather slow.  So I don't know, how well it or something similar, could cope with (what I expect), would be huge demands, on anything like a YouTube network.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 07:58:33 pm by MK14 »
 

Online NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9323
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Plain old Bittorrent is plenty good for most of the content. Add some sort of cryptocurrency on top of it that's "mined" by seeding the torrents and it will effectively provide incentives to seed. Make the amount of reward dependent on demand and it will automatically scale as needed.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf