Effect of Weight of Electric Cars

[apelly]

I haven't seen it come up in the usual "Wow! Electric!" feel-good stories, but it occurs to me that a whole bunch of heavier vehicles on the road could be a disaster for already poorly maintained infrastructure. It's my understanding that roads are designed with traffic loads in mind to balance cost of construction with cost of maintenance.

What happens when the weight of the average car doubles?

Discl; I didn't check how much heavier electric cars actually are.

[Dubbie]

The model x weighs about 2.4 tons and Audi Q7 weighs about 2.4 tons. I guess there is your answer.

[tautech]

Yep, likely we've all wondered that but modern electric motors are much lighter that internal combustion engines, transmissions and full fuel tanks.....

What did surprise me was a customer came a few days ago in a E BMW with 155/20" wheels that one might wonder don't distribute the vehicle's weight to as big footprint as a smaller and wider tyre.

[rstofer]

Total weight is a non-issue:

Chevy Silverado 1500 pickup - 4510 lbs and up
Chevy Bolt - 3563 lbs

Chevy Bolt battery - 960 lbs.

They are also using a lot of aluminum in the body of the Bolt to cut down the weight.  Details available on Google...

[nctnico]

That depends on where you live. In the EU the average car is around 1100kg to 1500kg.

[rstofer]

That depends on where you live. In the EU the average car is around 1100kg to 1500kg.

The Chevy Bolt is 1616 kg - not entirely out of line compared to larger EU cars.

The Mercedes Benz S-class is somewhere over 4700 lbs or 2142 kg.

Now, the Bolt isn't anywhere near the size of the Mercedes and nowhere near the same quality class but in terms of roadway wear and tear, the Bolt isn't a heavyweight.

[Nusa]

Heavy vehicles are exponentially more damaging to roads than light vehicles. So much so that I doubt any difference in light vehicle wear would even be measurable in most cases.

The limits on heavy vehicles may differ based on location. In the US, it's generally up to 80,000 lbs for a five-axle semi without special permits. In other words, the single-tire load of a truck can exceed the weight of an entire passenger vehicle.

Note that commercial weight limits include the weight of the truck itself, so if the new Tesla truck happens to weigh more, it's at the expense of load capacity.

[Benta]

That depends on where you live. In the EU the average car is around 1100kg to 1500kg.

That's some years back. Today average is around 1600 kg with all the X5s and Q7s  being sold.

[SeanB]

Here regular motor vehicle with trailer has to have a mass fully laden under 3500kg, otherwise it is a light truck. All up mass allowed for a vehicle ( otherwise it is classed as an Abnormal load) is 65 tons, with allowed axle masses for a steering axle of 18 tons, and 20 tons for non steering axle sets. Thus the popularity of dual steer vehicles ( mostly ERF for older ones) for things like brick delivery, and length is also limited to 22m overall. Do not see an electric vehicle falling out of this, and there is a quite large fleet of hybrids around, mostly the Lexus LS350h, the Prius along with a smattering of others.

[Bashstreet]

That depends on where you live. In the EU the average car is around 1100kg to 1500kg.

That's some years back. Today average is around 1600 kg with all the X5s and Q7s  being sold.

The average mass of new cars in the EU is 1,385 kg (2015) (trend it downward)

X5's surely cannot increase average...

[nctnico]

That depends on where you live. In the EU the average car is around 1100kg to 1500kg.

That's some years back. Today average is around 1600 kg with all the X5s and Q7s  being sold.

Not everybody is driving such cars (not even in Germany).

[Dr. Frank]

Here in Germany, all European trucks pass our Autobahn , from east to west and south to north and vv.

These commercial vehicles are identified to wreck our roads, and especially all of the bridges the most.
Over 60% of all Autobahn bridges in Germany, many originating from the 1960ties, have to be replaced in the next decade, because nobody accounted for this heavy increase of truck traffic across our country, additionally increasing a lot, when the iron curtain opened in 1990.

The passenger cars, let them even be these popular heavy SUVs (again here in Germany), contribute far less to these damages.

It is generally assumed, (originating from the AASHO Road Tests), that the damage depends to the 4th potency on the weight of one axle of a vehicle, so that a 3-axle, 30t truck damages the road 10000 times more, than a 2-axle 2t passenger car.

Concerning energy conservation, cars should weigh as least as possible, because the acceleration of its weight consumes at lot of the invested energy.
Therefore, I can't really understand, why so many people ride these SUVs, although they only use them on the regular roads, and are not farmers, foresters, lumberjacks, or similar.
Just a replacement for their small ego, or similar..

Frank

[Benta]

That depends on where you live. In the EU the average car is around 1100kg to 1500kg.

That's some years back. Today average is around 1600 kg with all the X5s and Q7s  being sold.

Not everybody is driving such cars (not even in Germany).

SUVs are now the largest segment of new cars on the German market. The compacts have been relegated to second spot.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/suv-neuzulassungen-zulassungszahlen-oktober-2017-736985.html

[GreyWoolfe]

Concerning energy conservation, cars should weigh as least as possible, because the acceleration of its weight consumes at lot of the invested energy.
Therefore, I can't really understand, why so many people ride these SUVs, although they only use them on the regular roads, and are not farmers, foresters, lumberjacks, or similar.
Just a replacement for their small ego, or similar..

Frank

Not everyone is compensating for something small    Our 2nd vehicle is a 2013 Ram Tradesman CV, a cargo van version of the Dodge Grand Caravan/Chrysler Town and Country minivan.  The curb weight is 4510 lbs/2046 kilos.  The van offers flexibility that the Hyundai Sonata(SWMBO's car) can't match, such as full sheets of plywood/drywall, 10 ft lengths of lumber, furniture that would never fit in the Sonata's trunk.  We helped friends clean up yards after Hurricane Irene, carrying lawn mower, weedwacker, blower, chainsaw and all that goes with them.  Some of us actually have a use for the larger vehicles we own, it may only be a 2 seater but it has a big honking trunk.

[Bashstreet]

That depends on where you live. In the EU the average car is around 1100kg to 1500kg.

That's some years back. Today average is around 1600 kg with all the X5s and Q7s  being sold.

Not everybody is driving such cars (not even in Germany).

SUVs are now the largest segment of new cars on the German market. The compacts have been relegated to second spot.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/suv-neuzulassungen-zulassungszahlen-oktober-2017-736985.html

We are talking about Europe not Germany.

[rstofer]

Concerning energy conservation, cars should weigh as least as possible, because the acceleration of its weight consumes at lot of the invested energy.
Therefore, I can't really understand, why so many people ride these SUVs, although they only use them on the regular roads, and are not farmers, foresters, lumberjacks, or similar.
Just a replacement for their small ego, or similar..

Frank

A light weight car versus a heavy car in a collision and the heavy car wins every time.  In my view, the 1958 Buick is the car to drive.  It was a veritable tank!  A Prius would just be a hood ornament!

Acceleration is everything!  If the car is a bit heavy, add horsepower.  That 840+ HP Dodge Demon seems just about right!

0-140 MPH in 9.6 seconds and 1.8 g's:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-12/meet-the-840-horsepower-dodge-challenger-srt-demon

Finding 100+ Octane gasoline might be a problem...

The environment can take care of itself!

[lukier]

Here in Germany, all European trucks pass our Autobahn , from east to west and south to north and vv.

These commercial vehicles are identified to wreck our roads, and especially all of the bridges the most.
Over 60% of all Autobahn bridges in Germany, many originating from the 1960ties, have to be replaced in the next decade, because nobody accounted for this heavy increase of truck traffic across our country, additionally increasing a lot, when the iron curtain opened in 1990.

It is worth mentioning that vehicles above 7.5t pay toll to drive on the Autobahn:
https://www.toll-collect.de/en/toll_collect/bezahlen/maut_tarife/maut_tarife.html

I have no idea if the total amounts collected via this system are enough to finance the infrastructure maintenance.

It is generally assumed, (originating from the AASHO Road Tests), that the damage depends to the 4th potency on the weight of one axle of a vehicle, so that a 3-axle, 30t truck damages the road 10000 times more, than a 2-axle 2t passenger car.

That is a very important point and I think not many people know that. Maybe, if they did, more people would support rail freight or rolling highway (like the Swiss do).

[Dr. Frank]

Concerning energy conservation, cars should weigh as least as possible, because the acceleration of its weight consumes at lot of the invested energy.
Therefore, I can't really understand, why so many people ride these SUVs, although they only use them on the regular roads, and are not farmers, foresters, lumberjacks, or similar.
Just a replacement for their small ego, or similar..

Frank

A light weight car versus a heavy car in a collision and the heavy car wins every time.  In my view, the 1958 Buick is the car to drive.  It was a veritable tank!  A Prius would just be a hood ornament!

Acceleration is everything!  If the car is a bit heavy, add horsepower.  That 840+ HP Dodge Demon seems just about right!

0-140 MPH in 9.6 seconds and 1.8 g's:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-12/meet-the-840-horsepower-dodge-challenger-srt-demon

Finding 100+ Octane gasoline might be a problem...

The environment can take care of itself!

 

Americans are really funny, especially when it gets to cars, and to waste of energy... wait until the Earth wastes mankind...heck no, we are doing that all by ourselves already. (Mainly by exponentially increasing over-population, but I don't think by excessive CO2 exhaust)

No kidding, I'm also fascinated by strong cars and sometimes by high speed.. but I always wonder, why you Americans love these horsepower, cubic cm and Nm monster cars, when you're allowed 60mph only..   

Frank

[nctnico]

Therefore, I can't really understand, why so many people ride these SUVs,

I agree and most of the drivers are terribly slow drivers as well especially when there are corners in the road. In Dutch I have a different wording for SUV: 'Sukkelt U Voort' which roughly translates to 'going forward at a snail's pace due to being crippled'.

[tautech]

Therefore, I can't really understand, why so many people ride these SUVs,

I agree and most of the drivers are terribly slow drivers as well especially when there are corners in the road. In Dutch I have a different wording for SUV: 'Sukkelt U Voort' which roughly translates to 'going forward at a snail's pace due to being crippled'.

Go for a spin in a Q7 and you'll think differently. 
No I don't own one. 

[cdev]

The sales of personal automobiles are declining in the US and have been for several years. Additionally the younger generation are not buying cars or getting driver licenses in anything like the numbers that their forebears did, and that bodes ill for the future of conspicuous consumption generally. People cant buy tons of stuff they don't need if they have no way to get it home or get out and use it.

Many young people can't afford cars. Quite a few cant even afford to get their own places to live. So they make do with the Internet and public transportation.

Perhaps the sales of cars is still healthy in Europe but it isn't here. For years Ive been hearing that arge inventories of unsold cars remain in the country from the slump several years ago. One has to wonder, have they - or will they ever - cut prices on the unsold cars enough so they can move them out of those huge parking lots in places like Long Beach CA. and Bayonne, NJ, which are large enough to see from space.

This video is from 2015 - are they still there? Ive heard conflicting reports.



Looks like there are also lots of unsold cars in the EU.

[GreyWoolfe]

The sales of personal automobiles are declining in the US and have been for several years. Additionally the younger generation are not buying cars or getting driver licenses in anything like the numbers that their forebears did, and that bodes ill for the future of conspicuous consumption generally. People cant buy tons of stuff they don't need if they have no way to get it home or get out and use it.

Many young people can't afford cars. Quite a few cant even afford to get their own places to live. So they make do with the Internet and public transportation.

Perhaps the sales of cars is still healthy in Europe but it isn't here. Large inventories of unsold cars remain in the country from the slump several years ago. One has to wonder, will they ever cut prices on the unsold cars enough so they can move them out of those huge parking lots in places like Long Beach CA. and Bayonne, NJ, which are large enough to see from space.

It's not just young people.  Any decent new car is way out of our price range and comfort zone for a monthly payment.  We were also a 1 car family for a number of years.  We bought the cargo van as it was my retired company vehicle, so we knew the history and the price was about half of the Kelly Blue Book value.  It was still a stretch to come up with the cash for it but we really needed to get back to a 2 car position.  Then you add full coverage insurance on both vehicles which isn't cheap here in Florida but the extra sacrifice is worth it.  Funny you mention Bayonne, NJ.  I was born and raised and spent half my life there.

[Tom45]

I worked for 3 summers at my state highway department during my college years. From memory, the design of the pavement, base, and sub base is determined by heavy truck traffic. The effect from passenger cars is negligible.

Some detailed results are in this paper:

  http://epdfiles.engr.wisc.edu/pdf_web_files/tic/bulletins/Bltn_002_Vehicle_Load.pdf

In particular, the damage from a 9 ton axle load is 10 times that of a 5 ton axle load. Two axle passenger vehicles rarely weigh more than 3  tons, and usually more like half of that. So their axle loads are in the range of 0.75 to 1.5 tons.

So any passenger vehicle will have very little effect on roads designed to handle trucks.

[cdev]

GreyWoolfe, do you know if there are still huge numbers of recently made unsold cars in Bayonne like there were a few years ago?

Developed country manufacturers are being cajoled into doing much/most of their new investment overseas - and so lobbyists are pressuring developed countries to sign deals that basically put millions of stable government jobs on a sort of poker table to be privatized and globalized to the lowest bidder. These new rules apply whenever tax money is spent, at all levels of government and quasi-government. They are trading service jobs here for the market access. Service jobs are basically the remainder of the economy and once a service sector like IT is opened, we cant limit it as we would hope, the quotas they have been using are under attack and may be overturned any day now by the WTO. That will likely mean a many fold increase in IT subcontracting (and other fields like engineering too) until the wages equalize somewhat between the developed and developing world. US firms claim to  see their future growth being Asia where many people still don't own cars and other devices that US consumers often already have. Also, wages are a fraction there what they are here so all kinds of (both skilled and unskilled) service providers and factories' labor costs are much lower. The next wave will be service provision over the Internet. (They are just waiting for the elimination of red tape which will then be locked in making it irreversible. See the WTO "US Gambling" case between Antigua and the US for what I mean.) There is claimed to be an oversupply or people with advanced degrees they can put to work. But I think any increased sales there will be offset by the decline of the wages and the global economy due to an implosion of the economies in the developed countries. Any increases there will likely be offset by general declines in wages due to supply and demand. So, we're better off doing nothing, keeping things the way they are now.

Also, the proposed changes will undercut recent immigrants and basically the whole middle class. So I think the 'efficiency gains' they claim will occur from falling wages and other labor costs in the developed countries, will cause an economic slump. And gains in Asia are pie in the sky due to the repressive governments and rigid class systems/caste systems in many countries that show no sign of relaxing hold. Even high skilled workers there will be trapped in a rut, even if they come to work in the developed countries, their pay will be only marginally higher here and their costs of living will skyrocket, leading to a net loss in remittances becuse the low paid workers will displace others and remittances home will fall.

So, I think its a safe bet that the next wave in business is going to mean even fewer people will be able to afford cars. Large shifts in "services" (80% of all jobs) including the aforementioned large scale outsourcing by foreign temp firms  exporting of slave-like working conditions in fields like IT, health care, perhaps even engineering, around the world using irreversible trade agreements.. will mean a general tightening of belts globally, except at the top.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080313195303/http://www.afsc.org/trade-matters/issues/LaborMobility.pdf

The lure of easy money is strong, so everybody is hiding the push and when it happens, the media will look the other way. You wont read about it in the paper.

[nctnico]

Therefore, I can't really understand, why so many people ride these SUVs,

I agree and most of the drivers are terribly slow drivers as well especially when there are corners in the road. In Dutch I have a different wording for SUV: 'Sukkelt U Voort' which roughly translates to 'going forward at a snail's pace due to being crippled'.

Go for a spin in a Q7 and you'll think differently. 

There is a difference between having a car with a lot of power + good handling and being able to drive it well. These large cars are like dog houses on wheels so you can't really see around you where the other traffic is at. The bussier the traffic/narrower the streets the bigger the disadvantage.