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Electric car for £9500?
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Siwastaja:
It is extremely alarming and nearly unbelievable to hear stories how modern cars, approved in all Western markets, use computer vision systems (camera-only) to achieve collision avoidance by applying full braking when image recognition algorithm guesses there is an obstacle present. Having been involved in some robotics years back, my light-professional viewpoint is that cameras cannot be used for automotive collision detection. Not stereoscopic; even less single cameras. Can not. Manufacturers should be legally prevented from pushing such systems into market, because I believe it is fundamentally impossible to design a system which can be proven to improve, not compromise safety.

I would approve systems which use sensor fusion where vision is an assisting factor, but use real distance sensing as well, e.g. ultrasonic or laser time-of-flight / LIDAR.

Randomly applying full braking is something where false positives in rates enough that normal people regularly see this and discuss it in coffee tables is completely unacceptable, by orders of magnitude. But it appears car manufacturers and politicians disagree with me.

The big issue is false sense of security. A well designed system optimized to give as few false positives as possible could increase safety, even if it only detected say 80% of real obstacles, but then if you are going to tell people about this feature, it is going to affect driving patterns, so to compensate, true positive rate must be higher than say 80%, and with cheap-assed and poorly designed sensor technology, that increase comes with the cost of increase in false positives, too.
coppice:

--- Quote from: Siwastaja on October 07, 2023, 04:12:46 pm ---It is extremely alarming and nearly unbelievable to hear stories how modern cars, approved in all Western markets, use computer vision systems (camera-only) to achieve collision avoidance by applying full braking when image recognition algorithm guesses there is an obstacle present. Having been involved in some robotics years back, my light-professional viewpoint is that cameras cannot be used for automotive collision detection. Not stereoscopic; even less single cameras. Can not. Manufacturers should be legally prevented from pushing such systems into market, because I believe it is fundamentally impossible to design a system which can be proven to improve, not compromise safety.

I would approve systems which use sensor fusion where vision is an assisting factor, but use real distance sensing as well, e.g. ultrasonic or laser time-of-flight / LIDAR.

Randomly applying full braking is something where false positives in rates enough that normal people regularly see this and discuss it in coffee tables is completely unacceptable, by orders of magnitude. But it appears car manufacturers and politicians disagree with me.

The big issue is false sense of security. A well designed system optimized to give as few false positives as possible could increase safety, even if it only detected say 80% of real obstacles, but then if you are going to tell people about this feature, it is going to affect driving patterns, so to compensate, true positive rate must be higher than say 80%, and with cheap-assed and poorly designed sensor technology, that increase comes with the cost of increase in false positives, too.

--- End quote ---
Machines screw up. Humans screw up. Current stats from the insurance industry seem to show a similar car with and without collision avoidance has about a 20% lower accident rate with the avoidance system. The snag is when they do crash the repairs a lot more expensive, as the sensors usually need to be replaced. So, the insurance rates for cars with collision avoidance are going up.
TimFox:
Unfortunately, it has been noted already that the implementation of, for example, anti-lock brakes (a good technology) resulted in more risky driving behavior.
A term applied to this is "homeostasis of risk":  i.e., individuals tend to act in a manner that they perceive has a fixed amount of risk, rather than maintain previous behavior resulting in lower risk with the new technology.
https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/publications/aviation-safety-letter/issue-2-2020/risk-homeostasis-reducing-risk-does-not-necessarily-reduce-accidents
(That article is specific to aviation, but has citations about driving.)
coppice:

--- Quote from: TimFox on October 07, 2023, 04:34:43 pm ---Unfortunately, it has been noted already that the implementation of, for example, anti-lock brakes (a good technology) resulted in more risky driving behavior.
A term applied to this is "homeostasis of risk":  i.e., individuals tend to act in a manner that they perceive has a fixed amount of risk, rather than maintain previous behavior resulting in lower risk with the new technology.
https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/publications/aviation-safety-letter/issue-2-2020/risk-homeostasis-reducing-risk-does-not-necessarily-reduce-accidents
(That article is specific to aviation, but has citations about driving.)

--- End quote ---
I saw a documentary where they followed A&E (ER in the US) statistics over several decades, looking at the ups and downs of traffic accident injuries as various things changed. Seat belt laws dropped the injury rate, then it climbed back up. Each time injuries were suppressed by some change, they climbed back to the previous level within a year or two. The puzzle is what makes them always return to a similar level? People aren't tracking the details of what happens, yet somehow as a group arrive back at the old injury rate.
factory:

--- Quote from: bd139 on October 02, 2023, 01:50:18 pm ---If I underdeliver enough I can do you one for £500. https://www.argos.co.uk/product/9544725

(£180 distribution fee added to the supplier cost)

--- End quote ---

Top speed 3.5km/h  :wtf: (or 3.5mph, Agros can't decide), needs a few extra batteries, photonicinduction style. :-DD



David
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