Author Topic: Electric car for £9500?  (Read 13335 times)

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Offline tom66

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #100 on: October 05, 2023, 01:12:40 pm »
Note that the OP gave no boundaries to what this car would be other than price and performance. So, lets think outside the box. In my odd trips to the scrap yard I see cars with early noughties registration plates on them, so 20 years old. Why are they scrapped I ask? Fag tray is full, or more usually they can't be bothered to replace the cam belt, stuffed engine. So here we have a complete car, just missing a working engine. Why not replace with an electric motor and some batteries?

An old car is unique; it might have rust, worn suspension, it might have one type of rear axle or another,  different braking systems, different final drive, etc.  Where is the engineering resource to design hundreds of custom systems for these vehicles and find places to fit electric motors and batteries?  And all this work on a car that might last 5 more years before having to have substantial overhaul?
I don't think Simon is writing about rare classic cars but common models build to reasonable quality standards like a Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus / Volvo V50, etc. The models that got sold in the hundreds of thousands with very little variation between them. There are two things that really wear on a car: the engine + gearbox and the suspension. If you do a complete suspension overhaul (which sets you back around 2.5k euro), you have a car that drives like new from the factory and has lots of life left. Still, for a battery conversion you'd need to have a place to put the batteries in an existing car which isn't very easy as it has not been designed to accomodate a battery pack. That is where the conversion gets labour intensive and thus expensive.

A car is more than just driving though.  You need DC-DC converter for 12V stuff, you need climate control, possibly air con, you need a radiator for the electric system and A/C (even if the electric rad is smaller),  you need to fit a charge port, you need to make sure all of the safety systems like airbags, ESP, ABS etc work ok.  All EVs need A/C because the battery pack needs cooling when charging (this is why even the 15kEUR Dacia Spring has A/C).  You need to replace the vacuum brake system with an electronic brake pump.  The dashboard needs to read speed and fault codes correctly.  The gearbox and clutch need replacement or adjustment to work right, it would probably want locking in 3rd/4th gear which could create unusual wear due to high motor torque.  All of this needs to be safe and reliable for 100k+ miles.

You might be able to build a package for something like a Mk4 Golf and save those from the recycler, but you'd have to have thousands of customers willing to pay 20kEUR+ for what is essentially an old slightly knackered Golf that's electric.  Meanwhile you can buy for not much more something like a brand-new e-208 or a second-hand e-Golf.  It would be a tough sell I think.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #101 on: October 05, 2023, 05:32:25 pm »
Car conversions are a waste of time. it is bad enough that you can buy an "electric" car that is not more than a rushed conversion by the manufacturer from chitty chitty bang bangs to electric in the "design", they are generally awful. there is an MG car that only uses the hydraulic brakes in cruise control, because they did not want to re integrate. My cupra born does not seem willing to use the hydraulics when it has run out of regen braking, at least that is the impression I got when someone pulled out ahead of me and the car went bannanas and apparently could not slow down enough unless I slamed my foot on the brakes.

It's a shame that basically you can't buy a decent car these days, they are all crap unless you are minted.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #102 on: October 05, 2023, 05:46:30 pm »
My cupra born does not seem willing to use the hydraulics when it has run out of regen braking, at least that is the impression I got when someone pulled out ahead of me and the car went bannanas and apparently could not slow down enough unless I slamed my foot on the brakes.
If that was in adaptive cruise mode its normal, and has nothing to do with the regen vs hydraulic braking split. If you look at the manual for most ICE powered cars with adaptive cruise they say the automated braking will not apply more than 40% or 50% of total available braking. I haven't seen one that explains why. Around town, when the collision avoidance braking kicks in, that can be quite aggressive. A pigeon crossing quite close in front of my car one day produced very heavy braking, so the automated system is capable of an emergency stop, even though that one was spurious. Its a good thing nobody was close behind me.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #103 on: October 05, 2023, 05:55:54 pm »
My cupra born does not seem willing to use the hydraulics when it has run out of regen braking, at least that is the impression I got when someone pulled out ahead of me and the car went bannanas and apparently could not slow down enough unless I slamed my foot on the brakes.
If that was in adaptive cruise mode its normal, and has nothing to do with the regen vs hydraulic braking split. If you look at the manual for most ICE powered cars with adaptive cruise they say the automated braking will not apply more than 40% or 50% of total available braking. I haven't seen one that explains why. Around town, when the collision avoidance braking kicks in, that can be quite aggressive. A pigeon crossing quite close in front of my car one day produced very heavy braking, so the automated system is capable of an emergency stop, even though that one was spurious. Its a good thing nobody was close behind me.

Yeah, this is definitely the case. My ID.3, which is essentially the German-badged version of the Born, is limited to somewhere around 50%.  I've had it light the collision warning up when approaching stopping traffic, it's essentially saying "I've reached maximum braking authority, you need to do more!"

As for hydraulic vs regen, not true at all. Braking performance is identical in ACC, it will modulate as required to reach equivalent deceleration. Regen is only about 10% of the total braking capacity of the car. Enough for normal usage, but certainly nothing like pressing the brake pedal even moderately hard.  So full battery with no regen doesn't make much difference and the control loop compensates by applying brakes more when battery is full if it's not slowing fast enough.

In 'B' mode this doesn't apply, since 'B' is just "max regen when not pressing the pedal", you need to press the brake pedal if you need more deceleration -- at a guess this is not done because you might not realise the brakes are being pressed while going down hill and therefore could overheat the brakes unknowingly.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #104 on: October 05, 2023, 06:47:58 pm »
well I've not read enough of the manual to know the details but it is like, I can be in D mode and it will slow down by itself for a junction - only the junctions in it's database which makes it only semi functional - so you think cool, a bit like partial cruise control, will slow down for speed changes too. Oh but if there is a car in front of you it will do nothing and scream blue murder, I mean what the fuck is all that about. If it is strict adherence to law then they should not put such half cocked features in that turn out worse than nothing, or is it simply poor integration. The car has the ability to detect something ahead and slow down but in this driver assist mode it won't. It makes the thing so complicated to drive in a mode that is supposed to make life easier that you may as well turn the lot off.

Oh and don't beleive what cupra say about fitting a better media controller or whatever you call the screen, it's awful!
 

Offline vad

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #105 on: October 06, 2023, 12:57:58 am »
The cheapest BYD Seagull has a 305 km range, and its price tag starts at 78,800 yuan, which is just shy of £9,000.
 

Offline Shonky

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #106 on: October 06, 2023, 01:17:26 am »
The cheapest BYD Seagull has a 305 km range, and its price tag starts at 78,800 yuan, which is just shy of £9,000.
Right but where can this be purchased in the UK or outside China? My point being that it's unlikely to be suitable in many countries.

300km is based on China's version of range tests which are "optimistic"

A very "theoretical price estimate" starts at the equivalent of 13k GBP here in Australia
 

Offline vad

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #107 on: October 06, 2023, 01:25:03 am »
The cheapest BYD Seagull has a 305 km range, and its price tag starts at 78,800 yuan, which is just shy of £9,000.
Right but where can this be purchased in the UK or outside China? My point being that it's unlikely to be suitable in many countries.

300km is based on China's version of range tests which are "optimistic"

A very "theoretical price estimate" starts at the equivalent of 13k GBP here in Australia
It's just an illustration that the 9.5K GBP price point is not as crazy as it might seem, and it has already been achieved in other market.
 
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #108 on: October 06, 2023, 01:34:45 am »
The cheapest BYD Seagull has a 305 km range, and its price tag starts at 78,800 yuan, which is just shy of £9,000.
Right but where can this be purchased in the UK or outside China? My point being that it's unlikely to be suitable in many countries.

300km is based on China's version of range tests which are "optimistic"

A very "theoretical price estimate" starts at the equivalent of 13k GBP here in Australia
It's just an illustration that the 9.5K GBP price point is not as crazy as it might seem, and it has already been achieved in other market.

It's been achieved, but does that thing even come close to meeting the standards required of vehicles in other markets?

We don't need more horror stories like this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620
 

Offline Veteran68

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #109 on: October 06, 2023, 02:05:31 am »
If that was in adaptive cruise mode its normal, and has nothing to do with the regen vs hydraulic braking split. If you look at the manual for most ICE powered cars with adaptive cruise they say the automated braking will not apply more than 40% or 50% of total available braking. I haven't seen one that explains why. Around town, when the collision avoidance braking kicks in, that can be quite aggressive. A pigeon crossing quite close in front of my car one day produced very heavy braking, so the automated system is capable of an emergency stop, even though that one was spurious. Its a good thing nobody was close behind me.

My 2021 Audi Q5 will definitely slam on the brakes HARD if it thinks you're about to hit something. Like, snap you forward in your seatbelt and almost giving you whiplash. It's extremely unnverving when it's a false alarm and comes out of nowhere, where it misinterprets something as an imminent collision but it's not. You can disable it, but I do like the peace of mind that it brings if one day I'm not paying attention, fall asleep/pass out, or whatever. It might save somebody, and it's far faster than my reflexes could ever be -- I just wish their detection was a bit more foolproof.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #110 on: October 07, 2023, 12:32:56 am »
If that was in adaptive cruise mode its normal, and has nothing to do with the regen vs hydraulic braking split. If you look at the manual for most ICE powered cars with adaptive cruise they say the automated braking will not apply more than 40% or 50% of total available braking. I haven't seen one that explains why. Around town, when the collision avoidance braking kicks in, that can be quite aggressive. A pigeon crossing quite close in front of my car one day produced very heavy braking, so the automated system is capable of an emergency stop, even though that one was spurious. Its a good thing nobody was close behind me.

My 2021 Audi Q5 will definitely slam on the brakes HARD if it thinks you're about to hit something. Like, snap you forward in your seatbelt and almost giving you whiplash. It's extremely unnverving when it's a false alarm and comes out of nowhere, where it misinterprets something as an imminent collision but it's not. You can disable it, but I do like the peace of mind that it brings if one day I'm not paying attention, fall asleep/pass out, or whatever. It might save somebody, and it's far faster than my reflexes could ever be -- I just wish their detection was a bit more foolproof.

Yeah, that's not something I personally am comfortable enabling so far.
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #111 on: October 07, 2023, 08:21:46 am »
the born/i3 screams blue murder when I am going around parked cars. when I drove an ioniq (uh horrible thing) it would scream at me when I approached a certain bend as it could not distinguish the pavement from the road and decided that I was headed for the school kids that it probably assumed where on the road.

These things will only work with good stereoscopic vision and god only knows how much processing power to do all of this in true 3D.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #112 on: October 07, 2023, 09:15:44 am »
I owned a model S for a couple of weeks (my father’s when he dropped dead). It was the same. Driving down the M4 at 70mph and it made the usual “phong” sound and tried to chuck me through the windscreen. Literally no other cars around. Even when it wasn’t trying to kill me it was complaining constantly.

If there’s no repeatability or determinism then you can’t trust the system. Hence I felt safer in my zero tech Citroen C3.
 
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Offline hans

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #113 on: October 07, 2023, 09:23:38 am »
If that was in adaptive cruise mode its normal, and has nothing to do with the regen vs hydraulic braking split. If you look at the manual for most ICE powered cars with adaptive cruise they say the automated braking will not apply more than 40% or 50% of total available braking. I haven't seen one that explains why. Around town, when the collision avoidance braking kicks in, that can be quite aggressive. A pigeon crossing quite close in front of my car one day produced very heavy braking, so the automated system is capable of an emergency stop, even though that one was spurious. Its a good thing nobody was close behind me.

My 2021 Audi Q5 will definitely slam on the brakes HARD if it thinks you're about to hit something. Like, snap you forward in your seatbelt and almost giving you whiplash. It's extremely unnverving when it's a false alarm and comes out of nowhere, where it misinterprets something as an imminent collision but it's not. You can disable it, but I do like the peace of mind that it brings if one day I'm not paying attention, fall asleep/pass out, or whatever. It might save somebody, and it's far faster than my reflexes could ever be -- I just wish their detection was a bit more foolproof.
Could be 2 different systems at play. Adaptive cruise is a comfort feature. Collision avoidance systems are safety features. It can make some sense that a comfort feature wont engage brakes at 100%, while a safety feature most definitely should.
Both systems also may use a different mix of sensors. IIRC collision avoidance systems almost always use some vision system, while ACC usually rely on some radar sensors as well. Radar sensors may have a non-zero min. range though, while vision may not work well at larger distances. There is probably some large amount of sensor fusion and data processing going on that is tuned "just so" (in next-gen they will call it AI powered for higher sales) in order to pass standard road tests. But practice may beg to differ.

I can understand keeping such a system on out of fear of driving into a truck or obstacle with >100km/h at night after a tiring day. But those unnecessary emergency stops are also not without danger, for example when someone is not expecting/reacting to it in time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but iirc collision avoidance systems for pedestrian safety has been mandatory on all cars in EU for a few years now (even a VW Up! has it). But usually those baby-systems only work at low city speeds (30km/h max)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2023, 09:25:25 am by hans »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #114 on: October 07, 2023, 02:51:01 pm »
I owned a model S for a couple of weeks (my father’s when he dropped dead). It was the same. Driving down the M4 at 70mph and it made the usual “phong” sound and tried to chuck me through the windscreen. Literally no other cars around. Even when it wasn’t trying to kill me it was complaining constantly.

If there’s no repeatability or determinism then you can’t trust the system. Hence I felt safer in my zero tech Citroen C3.
Most cars with a bunch of sensors are quite quirky. The ultrasonic sensors used for close in obstacle detection tend to alert once every trip or two on some low and innocuous kerb, or when a car creeps past in a jam, with an entirely reasonable separation from you. My car alerts about a frontal issue at the end of our drive. It drops about a metre from our house to the road with a gentle slope, but something about the relative position of the sloping car approaching the horizontal road triggers the ultrasonic sensors every time. That one is no bother. Its just expected now. Thankfully those sensors do behave well when you are relying on them in a tight car park.
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #115 on: October 07, 2023, 04:12:46 pm »
It is extremely alarming and nearly unbelievable to hear stories how modern cars, approved in all Western markets, use computer vision systems (camera-only) to achieve collision avoidance by applying full braking when image recognition algorithm guesses there is an obstacle present. Having been involved in some robotics years back, my light-professional viewpoint is that cameras cannot be used for automotive collision detection. Not stereoscopic; even less single cameras. Can not. Manufacturers should be legally prevented from pushing such systems into market, because I believe it is fundamentally impossible to design a system which can be proven to improve, not compromise safety.

I would approve systems which use sensor fusion where vision is an assisting factor, but use real distance sensing as well, e.g. ultrasonic or laser time-of-flight / LIDAR.

Randomly applying full braking is something where false positives in rates enough that normal people regularly see this and discuss it in coffee tables is completely unacceptable, by orders of magnitude. But it appears car manufacturers and politicians disagree with me.

The big issue is false sense of security. A well designed system optimized to give as few false positives as possible could increase safety, even if it only detected say 80% of real obstacles, but then if you are going to tell people about this feature, it is going to affect driving patterns, so to compensate, true positive rate must be higher than say 80%, and with cheap-assed and poorly designed sensor technology, that increase comes with the cost of increase in false positives, too.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2023, 04:17:11 pm by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #116 on: October 07, 2023, 04:32:08 pm »
It is extremely alarming and nearly unbelievable to hear stories how modern cars, approved in all Western markets, use computer vision systems (camera-only) to achieve collision avoidance by applying full braking when image recognition algorithm guesses there is an obstacle present. Having been involved in some robotics years back, my light-professional viewpoint is that cameras cannot be used for automotive collision detection. Not stereoscopic; even less single cameras. Can not. Manufacturers should be legally prevented from pushing such systems into market, because I believe it is fundamentally impossible to design a system which can be proven to improve, not compromise safety.

I would approve systems which use sensor fusion where vision is an assisting factor, but use real distance sensing as well, e.g. ultrasonic or laser time-of-flight / LIDAR.

Randomly applying full braking is something where false positives in rates enough that normal people regularly see this and discuss it in coffee tables is completely unacceptable, by orders of magnitude. But it appears car manufacturers and politicians disagree with me.

The big issue is false sense of security. A well designed system optimized to give as few false positives as possible could increase safety, even if it only detected say 80% of real obstacles, but then if you are going to tell people about this feature, it is going to affect driving patterns, so to compensate, true positive rate must be higher than say 80%, and with cheap-assed and poorly designed sensor technology, that increase comes with the cost of increase in false positives, too.
Machines screw up. Humans screw up. Current stats from the insurance industry seem to show a similar car with and without collision avoidance has about a 20% lower accident rate with the avoidance system. The snag is when they do crash the repairs a lot more expensive, as the sensors usually need to be replaced. So, the insurance rates for cars with collision avoidance are going up.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #117 on: October 07, 2023, 04:34:43 pm »
Unfortunately, it has been noted already that the implementation of, for example, anti-lock brakes (a good technology) resulted in more risky driving behavior.
A term applied to this is "homeostasis of risk":  i.e., individuals tend to act in a manner that they perceive has a fixed amount of risk, rather than maintain previous behavior resulting in lower risk with the new technology.
https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/publications/aviation-safety-letter/issue-2-2020/risk-homeostasis-reducing-risk-does-not-necessarily-reduce-accidents
(That article is specific to aviation, but has citations about driving.)
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #118 on: October 07, 2023, 04:42:00 pm »
Unfortunately, it has been noted already that the implementation of, for example, anti-lock brakes (a good technology) resulted in more risky driving behavior.
A term applied to this is "homeostasis of risk":  i.e., individuals tend to act in a manner that they perceive has a fixed amount of risk, rather than maintain previous behavior resulting in lower risk with the new technology.
https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/publications/aviation-safety-letter/issue-2-2020/risk-homeostasis-reducing-risk-does-not-necessarily-reduce-accidents
(That article is specific to aviation, but has citations about driving.)
I saw a documentary where they followed A&E (ER in the US) statistics over several decades, looking at the ups and downs of traffic accident injuries as various things changed. Seat belt laws dropped the injury rate, then it climbed back up. Each time injuries were suppressed by some change, they climbed back to the previous level within a year or two. The puzzle is what makes them always return to a similar level? People aren't tracking the details of what happens, yet somehow as a group arrive back at the old injury rate.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2023, 04:43:33 pm by coppice »
 

Offline factory

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #119 on: October 07, 2023, 06:24:40 pm »
If I underdeliver enough I can do you one for £500. https://www.argos.co.uk/product/9544725

(£180 distribution fee added to the supplier cost)

Top speed 3.5km/h  :wtf: (or 3.5mph, Agros can't decide), needs a few extra batteries, photonicinduction style. :-DD



David
« Last Edit: October 07, 2023, 06:27:57 pm by factory »
 
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Offline switchabl

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #120 on: October 07, 2023, 07:02:44 pm »
I saw a documentary where they followed A&E (ER in the US) statistics over several decades, looking at the ups and downs of traffic accident injuries as various things changed. Seat belt laws dropped the injury rate, then it climbed back up. Each time injuries were suppressed by some change, they climbed back to the previous level within a year or two. The puzzle is what makes them always return to a similar level? People aren't tracking the details of what happens, yet somehow as a group arrive back at the old injury rate.

Part of that may just be increase in traffic/distance travelled overall? Unless that is already accounted for.

In Germany, I am not sure that this is true at all (the 1990-91 jump is because earlier years do not include East Germany):
https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Traffic-Accidents/_Graphic/_Interactive/traffic-accidents-persons-killed-year.html?nn=24088
I'll admit that it is a bit difficult to judge the impact of single measures versus the overall downward trend (safer cars? better healthcare?).
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #121 on: October 07, 2023, 07:14:08 pm »
I saw a documentary where they followed A&E (ER in the US) statistics over several decades, looking at the ups and downs of traffic accident injuries as various things changed. Seat belt laws dropped the injury rate, then it climbed back up. Each time injuries were suppressed by some change, they climbed back to the previous level within a year or two. The puzzle is what makes them always return to a similar level? People aren't tracking the details of what happens, yet somehow as a group arrive back at the old injury rate.

Part of that may just be increase in traffic/distance travelled overall? Unless that is already accounted for.

In Germany, I am not sure that this is true at all (the 1990-91 jump is because earlier years do not include East Germany):
https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Traffic-Accidents/_Graphic/_Interactive/traffic-accidents-persons-killed-year.html?nn=24088
I'll admit that it is a bit difficult to judge the impact of single measures versus the overall downward trend (safer cars? better healthcare?).
You always have to include the distance travelled in these kind of stats so you can say accidents per km travelled to draw any meaningfull conclusion.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #122 on: October 07, 2023, 07:23:04 pm »
I saw a documentary where they followed A&E (ER in the US) statistics over several decades, looking at the ups and downs of traffic accident injuries as various things changed. Seat belt laws dropped the injury rate, then it climbed back up. Each time injuries were suppressed by some change, they climbed back to the previous level within a year or two. The puzzle is what makes them always return to a similar level? People aren't tracking the details of what happens, yet somehow as a group arrive back at the old injury rate.

Part of that may just be increase in traffic/distance travelled overall? Unless that is already accounted for.

In Germany, I am not sure that this is true at all (the 1990-91 jump is because earlier years do not include East Germany):
https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Traffic-Accidents/_Graphic/_Interactive/traffic-accidents-persons-killed-year.html?nn=24088
I'll admit that it is a bit difficult to judge the impact of single measures versus the overall downward trend (safer cars? better healthcare?).

In the US, traffic fatalities increased while miles driven decreased during the Covid shutdowns.
https://www.gao.gov/blog/during-covid-19-road-fatalities-increased-and-transit-ridership-dipped

An excerpt from that report:  "Why might this be happening? It’s not clear yet why there have been more fatalities on the road over the past two years. According to preliminary research by NHTSA, people who continued to drive during the pandemic may have engaged in riskier behavior including speeding, failure to wear seat belts, and driving under the influence of alcohol or other drugs."

Another possibility is that the highways and streets were emptier, and individual drivers interpreted that as license to speed.
Most reports indicate that although accidents decreased, the increased speed involved increased the number of fatalities.

Another theory is that "vaccine-hesitant" drivers were disproportionately involved in fatal crashes.
https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(22)00822-1/fulltext

I remember that shortly after the shutdown in Illinois, there was a spectacular crash in Chicago during icy conditions in April of 2020, involving 50 vehicles, probably exacerbated by "empty" roadway.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #123 on: October 07, 2023, 08:30:53 pm »
I would approve systems which use sensor fusion where vision is an assisting factor, but use real distance sensing as well, e.g. ultrasonic or laser time-of-flight / LIDAR.

What's the peak and mean LIDAR output power? How does that compare to eye-safe limits/

The latter must include considering failure modes, e.g. an equivalent to the "car wouldn't slow down" with the error log showing thousands of errors.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #124 on: October 07, 2023, 09:08:12 pm »
Just on the way back from London my ID.3 perceived "something" (I've no idea what) on the M25 as a 100 mph speed limit sign and set the ACC to 100 mph.  I would have thought the software would be smart enough to know the maximum legal limits for certain countries...

I am tempted to attach an OBD11 and code out a lot of these "safety" functions, they're not ready for prime time. The worst one is lane centering on badly marked rural roads, it likes to ditchfind, so you have to be quite firm with the steering wheel to override it.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2023, 09:17:07 pm by tom66 »
 
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