Author Topic: Electric car for £9500?  (Read 13343 times)

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Offline bd139

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #75 on: October 04, 2023, 09:22:58 am »
I am seriously impressed with just how objectionable the people are on this forum. Not one 'hey, how would the car be made' post at all, just flaming and snide comments.

Note that the OP gave no boundaries to what this car would be other than price and performance. So, lets think outside the box. In my odd trips to the scrap yard I see cars with early noughties registration plates on them, so 20 years old. Why are they scrapped I ask? Fag tray is full, or more usually they can't be bothered to replace the cam belt, stuffed engine. So here we have a complete car, just missing a working engine. Why not replace with an electric motor and some batteries?

Lots of space to hold the batteries, and if use lead acid then a reasonable price as well. Need a speed control, ever used an electric fork lift truck? My one worked fine with a not very expensive speed control, even has regenerative braking. A range of 100 miles at 5 miles/kWh means 20 kW, a 12V at 100Ah is 1.2kWh, so need 24V at 1000Ah. A 6V 150Ah battery is 22kg so total weight is  about 600kg, easily carried in a small car missing the engine and transmission. Lead acid batteries are a well known item, can be endlessly recycled, easily available in a huge range of size and capacity, and weight can't be a problem when electric cars seem to be over 2 tonnes.

What else is needed? Got rust free body shell, brakes, steering, door, windows, all safety approvals, so just a heater for winter.

There are people who will replace your classic car engine with an electric drive, price I have seen is about £50k, not really affordable. There is so much traffic on the roads now that single carriageway speeds are about 45mph from my experience.

So, how about it, what would be possible using scrap car body shells?


I think you miss the problem here which is not the topic, but the user. You need to understand some of the history behind the user to appreciate the comments.
 
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Offline Shonky

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2023, 09:23:12 am »
I am seriously impressed with just how objectionable the people are on this forum. Not one 'hey, how would the car be made' post at all, just flaming and snide comments.
Maybe go back and look at poster's history (and previous aliases)? And when asked reasonable questions like post a cost breakdown it's completely ignored anyway.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #77 on: October 04, 2023, 02:35:53 pm »
So, how about it, what would be possible using scrap car body shells?

Personal background of the OP aside, I understood his idea to be for a production-model car, not a personal tinkering project. And I can't see a viable business model which starts with scrap car shells. Availability of "good enough" shells (of the right model) would severely limit you, and the quality control, warranty and liability issues sound like a nightmare.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 02:51:17 pm by ebastler »
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #78 on: October 04, 2023, 03:18:31 pm »
x 195Wh/km

This is where median vs. average matters (and median over the whole population i.e. taking number of cars sold for each model into account). The average of this list is clearly biased by large vans, which, due to frontal area and weight are going to consume more. OP is designing a small (4-seater, not even 5!) car, so Tesla Model 3 numbers would be closer. In city traffic, numbers around 140-150Wh/km are realistic in all smaller passenger cars (excluding those stupid large SUV-type frames).
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #79 on: October 04, 2023, 03:38:26 pm »
Even my ID.3 which has a modest aero footprint gets around 170Wh/km even at highway speeds in summer.  In city traffic (stop start) I've seen 130-140Wh/km provided I'm careful with regen and don't gun it at the lights every time!
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #80 on: October 04, 2023, 05:00:32 pm »
Even my ID.3 which has a modest aero footprint gets around 170Wh/km even at highway speeds in summer.  In city traffic (stop start) I've seen 130-140Wh/km provided I'm careful with regen and don't gun it at the lights every time!

Citroën Ami claims 70km on a 5.5kWh battery ~= 80Wh/km but that's barely a car with only two seats and a top speed of 45km/h
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #81 on: October 04, 2023, 05:25:03 pm »
I am seriously impressed with just how objectionable the people are on this forum. Not one 'hey, how would the car be made' post at all, just flaming and snide comments.

You see  :palm: , some of us actually are engineers. Some of us have had to develop products and seen the costs of the products beyond the components.

Note that the OP gave no boundaries to what this car would be other than price and performance. So, lets think outside the box. In my odd trips to the scrap yard I see cars with early noughties registration plates on them, so 20 years old. Why are they scrapped I ask? Fag tray is full, or more usually they can't be bothered to replace the cam belt, stuffed engine. So here we have a complete car, just missing a working engine. Why not replace with an electric motor and some batteries?

Lots of space to hold the batteries, and if use lead acid then a reasonable price as well. Need a speed control, ever used an electric fork lift truck? My one worked fine with a not very expensive speed control, even has regenerative braking. A range of 100 miles at 5 miles/kWh means 20 kW, a 12V at 100Ah is 1.2kWh, so need 24V at 1000Ah. A 6V 150Ah battery is 22kg so total weight is  about 600kg, easily carried in a small car missing the engine and transmission. Lead acid batteries are a well known item, can be endlessly recycled, easily available in a huge range of size and capacity, and weight can't be a problem when electric cars seem to be over 2 tonnes.

What else is needed? Got rust free body shell, brakes, steering, door, windows, all safety approvals, so just a heater for winter.

it's a small matter called safety and complying with regulations

There are people who will replace your classic car engine with an electric drive, price I have seen is about £50k, not really affordable. There is so much traffic on the roads now that single carriageway speeds are about 45mph from my experience.

So, how about it, what would be possible using scrap car body shells?


Have you asked these people why they charge so much? partly it is the classic car effect, but those kits have to be developed and gain approvals. Then each car has to be re approved as it is now a new and unique car that requires examination by the relevant authorities to ensure it complies with regulations.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2023, 05:39:41 pm »
In my odd trips to the scrap yard I see cars with early noughties registration plates on them, so 20 years old. Why are they scrapped I ask? Fag tray is full, or more usually they can't be bothered to replace the cam belt, stuffed engine. So here we have a complete car, just missing a working engine. Why not replace with an electric motor and some batteries?

I know why. I ran those cars for many years. They are mostly held together with paint and moss.

Not only that they are designed with a specific weight distribution for handling which is difficult to reproduce with batteries. I've seen some conversion kits offered where they distribute the battery between the engine compartment and the boot. But you lose the boot and the handling is much worse.

I think it's probably better the material is recycled and turned into new EVs.

But there is a bigger issue is that the average age of a car in the UK is 11.6 years because everyone is fucking poor and can't afford shiny new cars, even if they are only £10k. The most I ever paid for a car was £5.5k. Until there is a well understood second hand EV market running for a couple of decades, which there *definitely* isn't now, then we are cruising towards the edge of a cliff. The second hand EV market is completely different to the second hand ICE market as well as the economics are different. Two distinct differences are the capital risk of EV battery replacement and the manufacturer's software.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 05:41:34 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline woodchips

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2023, 05:42:19 pm »
Coo, some response, bit naff though.

Do you have to re-approve a car if it is changed? Not in the UK, put a different engine in and off you go. This is all I am suggesting, a different engine, the safety, steering and brakes stay the same. If it is an approval problem then something for the government to change then isn't it? Restrict the speed to 60mph say. As for selling outside the UK then why, enough cars, RHD, for the UK, other countries can do what they want.

I have no idea who the OP is or has done, I just took the post as is and thought about it.


 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #84 on: October 04, 2023, 06:12:20 pm »
There are a few companies doing EV conversion kits, mostly for the original VW bus, the VW Beetle, and the venerable (and much missed) original VW Golf, of which there are probably around 4 million in my country alone, seeing as they were locally made for 38 years with minimal upgrades to the basic design, aside from those due to needing to replace whole swathes of the production line, as it fell apart from wear. There are some EU based converters, who do EU spec vehicles, and they seem to be doing well in a bespoke way. Depending on the company, it varies in range and power, and in battery type. Some are highway legal, as they can reach 80kph, while others will only reach 60kph.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2023, 06:32:51 pm »
Coo, some response, bit naff though.

Do you have to re-approve a car if it is changed? Not in the UK, put a different engine in and off you go. This is all I am suggesting, a different engine, the safety, steering and brakes stay the same. If it is an approval problem then something for the government to change then isn't it? Restrict the speed to 60mph say. As for selling outside the UK then why, enough cars, RHD, for the UK, other countries can do what they want.

I have no idea who the OP is or has done, I just took the post as is and thought about it.




you can't change a car without approval. The car is designed and tested and approved to be safe, if you change something to make it different from the original design then it is no longer road worthy.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2023, 06:38:36 pm »
Do you have to re-approve a car if it is changed? Not in the UK, put a different engine in and off you go. This is all I am suggesting, a different engine, the safety, steering and brakes stay the same. If it is an approval problem then something for the government to change then isn't it?

The battery and charger won't require any safety consideration at all, right? And the drivetrain won't require any change except swapping out the engine? Do you prefer your electric cars with a manual or automatic transmission?

Quote
I just took the post as is and thought about it.

Keep thinking a bit more.  :P
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #87 on: October 04, 2023, 08:16:57 pm »
I have no idea who the OP is or has done, I just took the post as is and thought about it.

The OP has form. A lot of form. None of it good.

Then he makes extraordinary claims (again) without anything even resembling extraordinary evidence.

I'll think about it if it was a different OP or the OP gave any evidence for his claims.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 08:20:07 pm by tggzzz »
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Offline hans

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #88 on: October 04, 2023, 09:20:27 pm »
x 195Wh/km

This is where median vs. average matters (and median over the whole population i.e. taking number of cars sold for each model into account). The average of this list is clearly biased by large vans, which, due to frontal area and weight are going to consume more. OP is designing a small (4-seater, not even 5!) car, so Tesla Model 3 numbers would be closer. In city traffic, numbers around 140-150Wh/km are realistic in all smaller passenger cars (excluding those stupid large SUV-type frames).
I get your point, I agree in the difference of avg vs median, but for the sake of this discussion I don't really care. I haven't read what kind of a car I will buy for my 9500. A hatchback, sedan, or SUV-MPV crossover? Its a big assumption that some random person will make an electric car as aerodynamically, mechanically and electrically efficient that it directly competes with modern competitors.
With that I think its still a fair ballpark figure to use slightly more pessimistic values.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #89 on: October 04, 2023, 09:38:14 pm »
The cost of the car itself is likely to become moot in a few years from now anyway, if by then you have to sell a kidney to pay for a year's worth of charging. (Oh and also if all you can do is rent it rather than buy it.) Just a thought. Of course it will never happen. :popcorn:
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 09:39:56 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #90 on: October 04, 2023, 09:59:45 pm »
Agreed. IMHO those who say we should consume less have it completely wrong. We should consume more efficient, not less. Consuming less means evolving backwards like walking on all four instead of upright.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #91 on: October 04, 2023, 10:09:47 pm »
There are clearly room for "affordable" cars, as such have been manufactured numerous time for past 100 years like the "faster Ford horse". Strip off all electronic garbage for example,
referring to the University of Gothenburgs study from 2017 telling us 74.2 % of the cars price is due to electronics. The thing is, the car mafia (read banker families) dont want to make
affordable cars BECAUSE in 2035 you are supposed to embrace the ; own nothing, eat bugzz and be happy, paradigm.....while sometimes if your social scoring are OK be able to rent
a car for an hour driving out of your 15 min city to the protected CO2 free pristine natural nature watching the natural animals like squirrel, moose and rabbits.



 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #92 on: October 05, 2023, 12:57:36 am »
referring to the University of Gothenburgs study from 2017 telling us 74.2 % of the cars price is due to electronics.
Reference please.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #93 on: October 05, 2023, 01:32:21 am »
In my odd trips to the scrap yard I see cars with early noughties registration plates on them, so 20 years old. Why are they scrapped I ask? Fag tray is full, or more usually they can't be bothered to replace the cam belt, stuffed engine. So here we have a complete car, just missing a working engine. Why not replace with an electric motor and some batteries?

Even ignoring the practicality of converting an ICE vehicle to EV (it's not as simple as you think), uh.. how much time have you spent working on cars, exactly? I've spent enough hours under 15-20 year old cars to know just how bad they get.. complete car, minus 10% of its original weight in rusted away material. But the rear axle gets lubed every time you brake hard!
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #94 on: October 05, 2023, 05:46:31 am »
I get your point, I agree in the difference of avg vs median, but for the sake of this discussion I don't really care. I haven't read what kind of a car I will buy for my 9500. A hatchback, sedan, or SUV-MPV crossover?

You will get an ugly 4-seater.

Quote
Its a big assumption that some random person will make an electric car as aerodynamically, mechanically and electrically efficient that it directly competes with modern competitors.

What? You don't believe in treez' aerodynamic design skills? This guy is world-class. I'm sure he'll deliver.

Quite seriously, I was commenting on that consumption number because the small size of the vehicle was obvious given the specification of 4 seats, and with top speed of 112km/h, people would mostly such car for commute / city driving. Even home-made conversions of old (1980's) cars of this size go well below 200 Wh/km, and this is despite use of heavy battery chemistries like 30Wh/kg lead acid or 90Wh/kg chinesium crap LFP, so it's not particularly difficult goal to achieve.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 05:51:39 am by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #95 on: October 05, 2023, 06:04:40 am »
Agreed. IMHO those who say we should consume less have it completely wrong. We should consume more efficient, not less. Consuming less means evolving backwards like walking on all four instead of upright.

Less can be more efficient. Lost of things people do is just pointless. Several people in my company live in the same small town, do we lift share? I would net even dare broach the subject. We just travel to work in a convoy almost.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #96 on: October 05, 2023, 07:00:44 am »
Agreed. IMHO those who say we should consume less have it completely wrong. We should consume more efficient, not less. Consuming less means evolving backwards like walking on all four instead of upright.

Less can be more efficient. Lost of things people do is just pointless.

According to whom? That's so pretty when people start deciding for everyone what is pointless and what is not.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #97 on: October 05, 2023, 09:05:22 am »
Note that the OP gave no boundaries to what this car would be other than price and performance. So, lets think outside the box. In my odd trips to the scrap yard I see cars with early noughties registration plates on them, so 20 years old. Why are they scrapped I ask? Fag tray is full, or more usually they can't be bothered to replace the cam belt, stuffed engine. So here we have a complete car, just missing a working engine. Why not replace with an electric motor and some batteries?

An old car is unique; it might have rust, worn suspension, it might have one type of rear axle or another,  different braking systems, different final drive, etc.  Where is the engineering resource to design hundreds of custom systems for these vehicles and find places to fit electric motors and batteries?  And all this work on a car that might last 5 more years before having to have substantial overhaul?

It's far simpler to crush them into a cube and recycle them.  Cars are possibly the most recycled consumer item out there.  Something like 50% of the steel in a modern car is recycled, and aluminium (where present) can approach 80%.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #98 on: October 05, 2023, 10:21:37 am »
Note that the OP gave no boundaries to what this car would be other than price and performance. So, lets think outside the box. In my odd trips to the scrap yard I see cars with early noughties registration plates on them, so 20 years old. Why are they scrapped I ask? Fag tray is full, or more usually they can't be bothered to replace the cam belt, stuffed engine. So here we have a complete car, just missing a working engine. Why not replace with an electric motor and some batteries?

An old car is unique; it might have rust, worn suspension, it might have one type of rear axle or another,  different braking systems, different final drive, etc.  Where is the engineering resource to design hundreds of custom systems for these vehicles and find places to fit electric motors and batteries?  And all this work on a car that might last 5 more years before having to have substantial overhaul?
I don't think Simon is writing about rare classic cars but common models build to reasonable quality standards like a Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus / Volvo V50, etc. The models that got sold in the hundreds of thousands with very little variation between them. There are two things that really wear on a car: the engine + gearbox and the suspension. If you do a complete suspension overhaul (which sets you back around 2.5k euro), you have a car that drives like new from the factory and has lots of life left. Still, for a battery conversion you'd need to have a place to put the batteries in an existing car which isn't very easy as it has not been designed to accomodate a battery pack. That is where the conversion gets labour intensive and thus expensive.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 10:47:35 am by nctnico »
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Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Electric car for £9500?
« Reply #99 on: October 05, 2023, 12:00:13 pm »
In the UK any changes to a vehicle are based on a points / percentage thing. So you could change an engine like for like or change a few suspension parts but if you make any big changes such as converting to electric it will need to go for a inspection which isnt that bad as long as it meets the specifications. Adding a lot of extra weight may cause some issues but so far its seems to work.

I asked at a place the cost for converting my 24 year old Land Rover Defender 110 and they said it would be around £60k if I fitted it myself. So for now I am just waiting for the hover convertion to become available as that is worth the extra cost for the MrFusion setup.

The whole idea of cheap electric cars isnt new and China is making a lot of them but the current market is for better build quality than what would be offered at the 6k price range. It's bad enough that several of the options at the moment are plastic poor build quality cars aka American with a few Euro and Japanese cars at the higher end.
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