Electric cars priviledges in UK (London) and Channel Tunnel crossing speeds

[eneuro]

Personally 20~30 minute fast DC charge every 200 or so miles is fine for me.

It must shorten battery lifespan and make charging proces very inefficient, while a huge amount of heat have to be disipated and probably a lot of energy for cooling needed.

BTW: Which is drag coefficient of Te$la and total car weight-less then 1000kg with battery without passengers?

[Rufus]

but in Europe we actually like paying tax and then getting services in return.

But not as much as we like other people paying tax for the services we get.

I think generally people paying tax would rather governments did less spending of their money, people who pay little tax may think differently and their vote counts just as much.

[tom66]

but in Europe we actually like paying tax and then getting services in return.

But not as much as we like other people paying tax for the services we get.

I think generally people paying tax would rather governments did less spending of their money, people who pay little tax may think differently and their vote counts just as much.

I don't understand this view. Well, I do: it's selfishness...

Not everyone can afford healthcare, so do they not deserve it? Haven't we gotten over this? Not everyone uses roads, so why should everyone fund them?  (Road tax only pays for a small part of the maintenance required...) I  don't need the street lighting along the ring road away from my house, why do I pay for it?

I am actually rather ambivalent on tax credits for EVs especially Tesla which is a very expensive car but I can see it as being one way to get an initial user-base for charging networks (as part of the chicken-and-egg problem...)

[Rufus]

I don't understand this view. Well, I do: it's selfishness...

Which part is selfish? People not wanting to pay tax spent on others or people wanting others to pay tax to be spent on them?

Seems a wash to me

The installation of 1300 EV charging points 998 of which didn't get used once in a 3 month period seems like an excellent example of why governments should do less spending.

[zapta]

The installation of 1300 EV charging points 998 of which didn't get used once in a 3 month period seems like an excellent example of why governments should do less spending.

This will be readjusted in the next five-years-plan.

[zapta]

Well, here it's a bit different. We see the government as providing services we want, like healthcare. It's cheaper if we all pitch in, and safer too because if I am unlucky and get some expensive disease or can't work any more I still get looked after.

I am glad to see a NHS fun. It's a first for me.

http://bit.ly/1xqnGgt

It leaves you with plenty of time to charge your EV.  ;-)

[tom66]

Well, here it's a bit different. We see the government as providing services we want, like healthcare. It's cheaper if we all pitch in, and safer too because if I am unlucky and get some expensive disease or can't work any more I still get looked after.

I am glad to see a NHS fun. It's a first for me.

First result:
http://www.nhs.uk/choiceintheNHS/Rightsandpledges/Waitingtimes/Pages/Guide%20to%20waiting%20times.aspx

Realistically, wait times for non-critical care <2 weeks. I can get a next day appointment here (Leeds) with several clinics within 1/2 hour walk of me, blood tests another day or two, results took 3~4 days... .and where I used to live (a town of <2000 people) I could book within 2~3 days. Critical care: immediate. If it is an emergency or there are serious problems, you get *immediate* treatment.

For people who can't afford to wait, there's private health care.

My experience of the NHS: Full dental until 16 (thereafter you pay about £20 per year for a checkup), incredible orthodontal care to fix my teeth including twice monthly appointments with a specialist over 18 months (stops me drooling like an idiot, which actually lets me have human conversations... without which it would be hard to do a job interview, for example), and treatment for a dislocated jaw due to a sports accident that would have otherwise cost thousands going private. As a young child, I spilt very hot water on my hand and face, requiring some emergency  burn care. Thanks to the NHS, I am also not permanently disfigured. My parents could not have afforded any of this.

A friend of mine is type I diabetic, and his medicine is only £7/week and blood sugar meter was subsidised (something like £30)... he is employed, but makes minimum wage... so would otherwise struggle to afford the expensive medicine and insulin etc.

And how much do I pay for all of this? About £80 a month... it's all included in that one payment my employer takes out of my pay packet... and should I fall unemployed it will still be available for me. I am HAPPY to pay for this all. It is like an insurance plan but everyone who can afford it pays into it, the more you can pay the more you contribute.  And unlike private healthcare: no limits on payout, concern over pre-existing conditions, minimum contributions or forgetting to pay the insurance bill and finding yourself uninsured and bankrupt. Frankly it's inhuman to me that someone can go bankrupt over something they have no control over.  One freak accident, or bad luck and you're financially ruined?

This cost whilst it may not be the lowest in Europe (the NHS has a lot of bureaucracy  problems) is much lower than the USA, which spends just over 2x  as much per person  to provide on average -worse- care.

There are obviously imperfections but I'm damn proud of the NHS and I'll defend it fiercely.

[tom66]

Personally 20~30 minute fast DC charge every 200 or so miles is fine for me.

It must shorten battery lifespan and make charging proces very inefficient, while a huge amount of heat have to be disipated and probably a lot of energy for cooling needed.

BTW: Which is drag coefficient of Te$la and total car weight-less then 1000kg with battery without passengers?

Tesla offer 8 year warranty on their battery. Roadster packs have kept over 85% of original capacity after 100k miles and identical acceleration performance.

The liquid  cooling system engages during fast DC charge, about 5kW additional usage. Charging with DC is actually more efficient than from the ordinary mains. This is because the conversion losses are lower in an off board charger.

[Rufus]

I'd rather pay into a government backed insurance scheme

If the scheme is so great it wouldn't need to be mandatory would it.

I would rather not pay into a government backed insurance scheme but I don't have the option. And we have your usual attitude that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and should be forced to make the same choice you do.

[tom66]

I'd rather pay into a government backed insurance scheme

If the scheme is so great it wouldn't need to be mandatory would it.

What? You'd voluntarily pay additional tax? That's very nice of you.

Of course it needs to be mandatory, for anyone that can afford it. That's how it works. It's insurance--most people will never get out more than they pay in.

Maybe, if you like, there should be an option for those with private health insurance to not contribute NI tax -- this being conditional upon never using NHS services, including ambulances and emergency care.  You can enjoy BUPA if you like. Wait don't they use NHS facilities?

[Rufus]

I'd rather pay into a government backed insurance scheme

If the scheme is so great it wouldn't need to be mandatory would it.

Maybe, if you like, there should be an option for those with private health insurance to not contribute NI tax -- this being conditional upon never using NHS services, including ambulances and emergency care.  You can enjoy BUPA if you like. Wait don't they use NHS facilities?

National insurance has nothing to do with NHS funding about 95% of it funds pensions. The NHS budget is about £110 billion or about £140 a month for every person in the UK. You think you are paying about £80 a month so someone else is paying the other £60 and all the £140s for the millions that pay nothing - no wonder you like it.

[dannyf]

Of course it needs to be mandatory, for anyone that can afford it.

Obviously, from the point of view of someone who receives subsidized services / products.

Your position could be considerably strengthened if one day you insisted on subsidizing others.

You know, taking on your fair share of that social pack that you so insisted on others taking on.

[tom66]

I am a tax payer in full time work and am quite happy to continue paying for the NHS! And many other government services that I do not currently benefit from (for example schools.)

Everyone including myself must pay their fair share. It is not reasonable to ask someone without a job to pay hundreds a month for health insurance. And then if they do not have this insurance, they're out of luck if they get cancer, break a leg, or get into a car accident? All unavoidable daily situations.

... How did we get so off topic?

[dannyf]

I am a tax payer in full time work and am quite happy to continue paying for the NHS! And many other government services that I do not currently benefit from (for example schools.)

The fact that you are paying your taxes in full does not mean you have fully paid your fair share, or have been a net contributor to the society - contributing more to it than you are taking from it. ie. producers vs. takers.

They are two unrelated concepts.

... How did we get so off topic?

The desire to expose hypocrites?

[KJDS]

... How did we get so off topic?

Because

a)   American capitalist pigs*

b)   European commie pinkoe liberals*

are wrong

* delete as applicable

[eneuro]

Tesla's fast charge is actually only 1.5C, so not really that much of a strain on the batteries.

Ok, it makes sense I forgot about huge capacity of Te$la battery 

Maybe someone will be able to buy smaller battery soon made in Te$la mega factory for his garage EV made by convertion from ICE?
It's official: Nevada gets Tesla's Gigafactory  September 5, 2014: 7:14 AM ET

"The Gigafactory is an important step in advancing the cause of sustainable transportation and will enable the mass production of compelling electric vehicles for decades to come," Tesla CEO Elon Musk said in a statement."

If they were able make cheap EV battery modules available for eveyone, ICE lobby might have much more work to do to delay electric car introduction for everyone and more people could forget about those noisy dirty cars 

[zapta]

... How did we get so off topic?

Because

a)   American capitalist pigs*

b)   European commie pinkoe liberals*

are wrong

* delete as applicable

We also have Americans commies, to many of them. Anyway back to the topic, anybody can enumerate the privileges and freebies UK EV owners get?

[nctnico]

If they were able make cheap EV battery modules available for eveyone, ICE lobby might have much more work to do to delay electric car introduction for everyone and more people could forget about those noisy dirty cars 

I hate to burst your bubble but in countries without hydropower they are struggling to make 10% of the electricity from renewable sources. Wind turbines and solar power need massive amounts of subsidies to be economically viable. Not to mention CO2 emission trading. When available I put E10 petrol (10% ethanol) in my car and by doing that I'm already on that 10% renewable fuel mark. Many newer (flexi fuel) cars can already run on close to 100% ethanol which starts to become available more and more. Add to that that in a few years (2020 IIRC) cars sold in the EU must be much more efficient than they currently are: The average CO2 emission must be 90gr CO2/km or less. EVs don't come near that number on the electricity mix available in the EU. Add more ethanol to the equation and the EV is on a dead end road.

[Rufus]

We also have Americans commies, to many of them. Anyway back to the topic, anybody can enumerate the privileges and freebies UK EV owners get?

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/electric-vehicles about covers it.

It doesn't mention some of the reduced fuel cost is due to a 5% rather than 156% tax rate.

VED depends on vehicle rated CO2 emissions, probably averages £200/year.

[tom66]

We really do still need nuclear as a base load.  Modern nuclear reactors are clean and efficient, unlike coal or CCGT. There's the problem with waste but it's not as big as it sounds with GenIII reactors which will work off the spent fuel from conventional (GenII) reactors.

I'm all for wind and solar but I don't see either working particularly well in the UK for any more than 10%. Germany may be able to do 40% of average production but does this take into account peak usage? (Evenings don't have much sun) And I believe electricity is almost 30¢/kWh there which makes EVs financially unattractive.

I'm really surprised about how many people don't like the idea of EVs on an electronics engineering forum. EVs take a complex mechanical device with many bits to go wrong (recently a friend has just had to completely rebuild an engine after his timing belt slipped)  and replace it with a simple inverter and motor assembly. It's a completely different way of building a car. It's just the chemical batteries that get in the way at the moment, but this should change over time.

[Rufus]

I hate to burst your bubble but even the shitty UK is past 10%, and Germany hit over 40% this year. Germany is 1/3rd the way through its transition and already proving all the doubters wrong.

More like 30% and they only spent $138 billion doing it. Now having shut down their nukes they are burning more coal and gas and emitting more CO2 than they were in 2009. Second highest electricity prices in europe as well.

They certainly are a shining example to us all.

[zapta]

I hate to burst your bubble but even the shitty UK is past 10%, and Germany hit over 40% this year. Germany is 1/3rd the way through its transition and already proving all the doubters wrong.

More like 30% and they only spent $138 billion doing it. Now having shut down their nukes they are burning more coal and gas and emitting more CO2 than they were in 2009. Second highest electricity prices in europe as well.

They certainly are a shining example to us all.

That's why electricity in Germany costs twice as much as in France.

[nctnico]

I hate to burst your bubble but in countries without hydropower they are struggling to make 10% of the electricity from renewable sources.

I hate to burst your bubble but even the shitty UK is past 10%, and Germany hit over 40% this year. Germany is 1/3rd the way through its transition and already proving all the doubters wrong. I saved links to posts by idiots on Slashdot claiming that Germany would revert to an agrarian society and that

As far as I can see that 40% for Germany is a peak during the summer only. The CO2 emission per kWh in Germany is a whopping 0.51kg per kWh (see http://www.renewablesinternational.net/carbon-emissions-from-german-power-sector-balanced-in-2013/150/537/77625/) which would put an EV in Germany at 115grams of CO2 per km. Here in the NL the emission is 0.465kg CO2 per kWh. The Dutch government expects to maybe reach 16% renewable energy by 2020 so Germany must do much worse based on the CO2 per kWh.

[zapta]

As far as I can see that 40% for Germany is a peak during the summer only. The CO2 emission per kWh in Germany is a whopping 0.51kg per kWh (see http://www.renewablesinternational.net/carbon-emissions-from-german-power-sector-balanced-in-2013/150/537/77625/) which would put an EV in Germany at 115grams of CO2 per km. Here in the NL the emission is 0.465kg CO2 per kWh. The Dutch government expects to maybe reach 16% renewable energy by 2020 so Germany must do much worse based on the CO2 per kWh.

It's about feeling good, placebo, like some audiophiles.

[Rufus]

I'm really surprised about how many people don't like the idea of EVs on an electronics engineering forum.

Pretty simple - EEs without rose tinted glasses understand how shit batteries are.