Author Topic: Electric scooters and bikes. Anyone have 1 and what's your thoughts on them?  (Read 1948 times)

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Offline Terry01

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I got a new electric scooter a week or so ago. One of the kick scooter type, not motorbike scooter type.
It has a 60v 21Ah lithium battery and has 2x 1000w motors. You can either select power from just the rear motor on it's own which gives you 1000w pulling power or both front and rear motors powered which gives you 2000w pulling power.
It has 3 optional speeds and also either "eco" or "turbo" power settings.
Obviously it doesn't have a "turbo" but I guess the difference between "eco" and "turbo" is a sort of half power or full power at the top end of things. If you have "eco" selected it sort of slows up and is much less torquey as it reaches towards full speed where as with "turbo" selected it will still wheelspin and pull like crazy even if your going quite quick and nearing top speed and give it more throttle.

It really is very surprising how much power this little thing can get down! I haven't done any kind of measured tests with it yet but just what I can guess from a few times riding this little thing it's amazing how much power it has and how long it keeps going with no real lag even after you've been roasting it for a while. I expected it to start slowing up after a while but it was just as quick and responsive even after being ridden full throttle for a while and hauling my backside uphill for a few good stretches too.

I've downloaded a decent GPS app so will get some proper measured tests in soon and post the results.

I've seen a few videos of the electric mountain bike types too and they really look impressive as far as power down and distance covered. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has one and what your thoughts are on this type of machine.
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Offline nctnico

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I have been contemplating getting one but from what I've heard cold isn't good for the batteries and it can wreck them quickly (*). In some models you can take the pack out and store/charge it inside. Finding a scooter with a high quality battery pack which lasts long can be a problem though. What kind of pack does it have? Make sure the pack is made in Europe and don't store it for a long time without charge.

I'm also wondering how the ride is with a heavy motor in the front wheel. This has to be very hard on the spokes.

* I also wouldn't be using it very often which is also not good for the batteries.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 01:18:32 pm by nctnico »
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Offline David Hess

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It is not so much the power of the electronic scooter or bike as much as how little power a person in even good shape can produce on a continuous basis.  So even 1/4 horsepower is a huge difference.
 

Online thm_w

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2000W for a light kick scooter is ridiculously powerful, a 1,200 Whr battery is also very large for that type of product. What is the model?

Its the most efficient means of powered personal transport, but the issue you can run into is local laws. For example, that scooter would not be allowed to be ridden here at all for numerous reasons (motor too powerful, speed is likely too fast, limit here is 35km/h, and powered push scooter is not allowed at all). You can probably get away with it, but you risk a $350 fine.

To get ~20km to work takes me less than 700Whr (thats from the wall), or ~9c of electricity. Electric car is closer to $1 for the same distance.

If you are worried about cold performance, either over-spec the batteries for the distance you need to travel, or look at LiFePO4.
 

Offline David Hess

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Where I am the local governments simply required the scooters to be licensed by the state knowing that the state would not license the scooters because they were not large enough and did not have engines.  That neatly solved the problem of making the scooters illegal while preventing standing to challenge the laws.

Most states did the same thing with electric vehicles and then later biofuels to keep electric vehicles off of the roads and prevent people from using biofuels.  In the past, one of my friends in California was literally told he could not register his electric vehicle because it could not be smog tested.  Of course he could apply for an exception which the state may or may not grant and of course the DMV may or may not honor.
 

Offline nctnico

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If you are worried about cold performance, either over-spec the batteries for the distance you need to travel, or look at LiFePO4.
It is not so much about the performance. Your scooter likely has a Li-ion battery pack. Li-ion in general shouldn't be charged at temperatures below 0 deg. C.
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Offline Terry01

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2000W for a light kick scooter is ridiculously powerful, a 1,200 Whr battery is also very large for that type of product. What is the model?

Its the most efficient means of powered personal transport, but the issue you can run into is local laws. For example, that scooter would not be allowed to be ridden here at all for numerous reasons (motor too powerful, speed is likely too fast, limit here is 35km/h, and powered push scooter is not allowed at all). You can probably get away with it, but you risk a $350 fine.

To get ~20km to work takes me less than 700Whr (thats from the wall), or ~9c of electricity. Electric car is closer to $1 for the same distance.

If you are worried about cold performance, either over-spec the batteries for the distance you need to travel, or look at LiFePO4.

It's a Viper Dual 2000w. Like this...
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Online thm_w

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It is not so much about the performance. Your scooter likely has a Li-ion battery pack. Li-ion in general shouldn't be charged at temperatures below 0 deg. C.

Good point, probably best to bring inside to charge then. Ideally a good BMS would have a temperature sensor inside that would show the reading or prevent charging at low temps then.
It was a used LiFePO4 I bought for next to nothing.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_at_high_and_low_temperatures
https://relionbattery.com/blog/lithium-battery-cold-weather
https://upcommons.upc.edu/bitstream/handle/2099.1/26410/David_Balaguer.pdf?sequence=1

It's a Viper Dual 2000w. Like this...

70km/h+ wild..
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 10:51:48 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline nctnico

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2000W for a light kick scooter is ridiculously powerful, a 1,200 Whr battery is also very large for that type of product. What is the model?

Its the most efficient means of powered personal transport, but the issue you can run into is local laws. For example, that scooter would not be allowed to be ridden here at all for numerous reasons (motor too powerful, speed is likely too fast, limit here is 35km/h, and powered push scooter is not allowed at all). You can probably get away with it, but you risk a $350 fine.

To get ~20km to work takes me less than 700Whr (thats from the wall), or ~9c of electricity. Electric car is closer to $1 for the same distance.

If you are worried about cold performance, either over-spec the batteries for the distance you need to travel, or look at LiFePO4.

It's a Viper Dual 2000w. Like this...
Back in the old days you had speaker sets the size of a small (1 litre) box rated at 2000W PMPO. Looking at the pictures it seems the PMPO power rating hasn't died. I hate to say it but this has 'cheap Chinese toy crap' written all over it. The construction is just scary especially because it can do 70kmh. It wouldn't surprise me if this scooter snaps in half if you drive over a small bump.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 10:57:57 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Terry01

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I haven't had it up to 70kph yet as I've only been out a few sort runs. I saw in 1 You Tube video where the guy has it up on blocks it reaching 93kph and I have no doubt it'll blast past 70kph no sweat at all. I don't know if it'll do the 90kph when it's loaded up with me but I will certainly give it a try. I'm only 11 or 12 stone so not a heavy load as such. I know where there is a nice tar path that's a cycle path and it's quite straight so you can see well ahead for walkers or cycles so perfect for "giving it the beans".

It seems to be accepted where I live so long as your not flying about endangering people and using it at safe speeds similar to riding a pedal bike and not getting in the way of traffic or things like that.

I'll try and post a video... 
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Offline TopLoser

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Are they street legal in the UK? If they are what insurance and/or road tax is obligatory?
 

Offline Terry01

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No, they are not street legal in the UK. They are only "supposed" to be ridden on private land. PERIOD!

As far as I can make out from others in the UK who have had them for a while, so long as you are riding responsibly while around people or traffic the police won't bother you. If you are flying past a school at 30 mph on the pavement you are for sure going to be stopped and have it taken from you. Rightly so I believe.

The law around them in the UK was set in 1835 or there about so way out of date. I remember years ago when I had the petrol version called a "GO PED" they made it that it had to be insured and taxed for it to be legal. No one would insure you so it disappeared up it's own backside real quick.
I think with these models because they are big on "green" modes of travel they are more prone to turn a bling eye so long as you are riding responsibly around people or whatever and not causing a problem for traffic.
Lots of other countries have made certain laws regarding them and from what I can make out the "green" campaigners here in the UK seem to think the law will be updated in the next year or so.
I live in Edinburgh and have seen police when I've been out, granted not a lot up till now but the ones I have seen have had a look and drove on. I hear from others who live all over the UK it's much the same everywhere.
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Offline Terry01

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…. I also use a helmet and pads and stuff and lights when needed too. I dunno if that may make a small difference too...
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Offline Domagoj T

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2kW on a scooter? That's insane.
Over here in Croatia, electric motor assisted bicycles are required to stay below 250W. And that's a bike where you have large wheels, good posture and can have proper disk brakes installed. Even with that those thing easily maintain the electonically limited 25km/h (you can ride faster, but only on your own power) with minimal manual input.
I don't have one, since I don't feel like hauling it every day up and down the stairs to the basement, but have had a couple of chances to test them. With some manual input, 250W is plenty to cruize at 20km/h for quite a while.

2kW on scooter is a death trap. Be careful with the front motor.
 

Offline EmmanuelFaure

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My thoughts :
- Cost of transportation divided by ~10 compared to a car. New car >= ~30€/100km when you take into account everything : Fuel, insurance, maintenance, parking fees, depreciation expense.
- The battery life span can be increased A LOT by limiting the depth of charge and the top charge voltage. Look at :
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

 

Offline Terry01

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2000W for a light kick scooter is ridiculously powerful, a 1,200 Whr battery is also very large for that type of product. What is the model?

Its the most efficient means of powered personal transport, but the issue you can run into is local laws. For example, that scooter would not be allowed to be ridden here at all for numerous reasons (motor too powerful, speed is likely too fast, limit here is 35km/h, and powered push scooter is not allowed at all). You can probably get away with it, but you risk a $350 fine.

To get ~20km to work takes me less than 700Whr (thats from the wall), or ~9c of electricity. Electric car is closer to $1 for the same distance.

If you are worried about cold performance, either over-spec the batteries for the distance you need to travel, or look at LiFePO4.

It's a Viper Dual 2000w. Like this...
Back in the old days you had speaker sets the size of a small (1 litre) box rated at 2000W PMPO. Looking at the pictures it seems the PMPO power rating hasn't died. I hate to say it but this has 'cheap Chinese toy crap' written all over it. The construction is just scary especially because it can do 70kmh. It wouldn't surprise me if this scooter snaps in half if you drive over a small bump.

Have a closer look.   

It's far from "Chinese toy crap". You can get the cheap crap machines for a couple hundred quid but this is not that I can assure you. I paid just shy of £1000 for it because it does look fairly well made and now I have had it out I can vouch it's robust as hell. Like you say if your gonna park your farter on it at 70kph it needs to hold out. I could have bought it's equivalent made from cheap crap for £200-£300 or there about but didn't for that reason.

The petrol "GO PED" I had years ago did break in half and that was solid enough built too to be fair.
My friend tried to jump a kerb going flat out and jumped too early, the frame landed on the round of the kerb rather than right up over it and the thing broke right in 2!
My friend and the handle bars and front wheel made the jump and went skidding about 30 yards along the pavement while the board and the back wheel stopped dead. Funny as hell! It pulled his trousers down too as he skidded along the pavement and lost some skin and clothes material!
Real funny but just goes to show how easy it is to get hurt. I'm sure he still has scars from that crash 20 odd years later!

If you go fast on anything there is always a risk of some kind. I've always found the crashing to be the easy part.... it's the landing that's a "mofu"!
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Offline BillB

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I haven't had it up to 70kph yet as I've only been out a few sort runs. I saw in 1 You Tube video where the guy has it up on blocks it reaching 93kph and I have no doubt it'll blast past 70kph no sweat at all. I don't know if it'll do the 90kph when it's loaded up with me but I will certainly give it a try....

OMG.  I'm an avid motorcyclist, ride a fast sportbike, but still not crazy enough to try 93kph on that thing.  Those tiny little wheels, lack of any steering angle, and practically shopping-cart wheel caster on that front end...  :palm: 
 

Offline nctnico

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Back in the old days you had speaker sets the size of a small (1 litre) box rated at 2000W PMPO. Looking at the pictures it seems the PMPO power rating hasn't died. I hate to say it but this has 'cheap Chinese toy crap' written all over it. The construction is just scary especially because it can do 70kmh. It wouldn't surprise me if this scooter snaps in half if you drive over a small bump.
Have a closer look.   

It's far from "Chinese toy crap". You can get the cheap crap machines for a couple hundred quid but this is not that I can assure you.
Now I'm even more afraid! Look at how bad it is put together. This will fail when used regulary (the rivets to join the front steering column to the base plate for example). Probably not as quickly as the cheaper ones but this thing just isn't road worthy.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline cdev

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Does anybody have any ideas of what kind of motor would be optimal retrofitted to an old, all steel Raleigh Grand Prix (in mint condition) with aftermarket Shimano dérailleur etc. so motor would likely work the best on the front wheel. It's a 27 inch bike, however! Not so many left on the road.

I would really like to have both the electric capability and the real bike, with all its gears, strength, (carrying capacity, because i'd like to be able to do most of our shopping using my bike as I used to) I'm a big guy too. Ideally the batteries could be detached and brought inside and bike left outside in the garage in cold weather too. At one point I was looking at a Golden Rotor kit but never pulled the trigger on it.
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Offline nctnico

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The best place for the motor is on the frame and then the rear wheel. Definitely not the front wheel. Also adding a motor will add drag to a bycicle when it is used without powering the motor. How much depends on the type of motor.
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Offline cdev

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A larger electric scooter (the size of a conventional road-legal gas scooter) would likely be great for me, as I've ridden lots of scooters and even owned one once, but I would want a more conventional, Vespa-like design. Those tiny wheels and vertical riding position worry me too combined with all that power. I suppose that would come in use for riding long distances on flat city streets? Not ones with potholes, though.

Seems like it might be okay for a very flat place. Is it street legal?
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Offline vealmike

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Front wheel motors are 250W.

I converted the wife's old steel frame mountain bike to electric last year. Fitted a Yose Power 350W kit and built a spot welder and 36V 8.8Ah battery pack.
The conversion was an utter pain. The frame wasn't wide enough for the new wheel. The bike had six gears, but the new wheel would only take 7, so the rear dérailleur shifter had to be swapped out as well. The battery pack would physically fit inside the frame, but it was impossible to assemble it, so I had to buy a rack and bolt it on there. The cadence sensor fouled the pedals and had to be "adjusted". And the throttle fouled the brake/ gear shift.
But other than having to tweak nearly everything (bastard file and hammer) the kit just worked.

My wife was horrified at the idea of an electric bike. She felt that it was something old ladies used. But having (eventually) tried it, she absolutely loved it. In 16 years of knowing her, she'd used her bike twice. Add electric power and she used it for commuting every day through the summer and autumn.

It is a lot of fun. Add a bit of leg power and it accelerates like crazy. With no input from me, it will climb and accelerate on a gentle incline. But it will not do a steep hill without rider assistance.
 

Offline cdev

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The one I was looking at came fairly highly recommended by a friend, but it was years ago, and I'm sure that new options probably exist now. It was a hub motor that I am pretty sure used induction and fancy controller to deliver the power. I am pretty sure the rolling resistance was very low. At the time, around ten years ago, it was recommended by a friend who is an expert professional bike mechanic. I think it was a "goldenmotor" hub. That way I could avoid having to buy a whole new bike. So it would be a better motor and battery for the money.


The best place for the motor is on the frame and then the rear wheel. Definitely not the front wheel. Also adding a motor will add drag to a bycicle when it is used without powering the motor. How much depends on the type of motor.
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Offline Terry01

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Back in the old days you had speaker sets the size of a small (1 litre) box rated at 2000W PMPO. Looking at the pictures it seems the PMPO power rating hasn't died. I hate to say it but this has 'cheap Chinese toy crap' written all over it. The construction is just scary especially because it can do 70kmh. It wouldn't surprise me if this scooter snaps in half if you drive over a small bump.
Have a closer look.   

It's far from "Chinese toy crap". You can get the cheap crap machines for a couple hundred quid but this is not that I can assure you.
Now I'm even more afraid! Look at how bad it is put together. This will fail when used regulary (the rivets to join the front steering column to the base plate for example). Probably not as quickly as the cheaper ones but this thing just isn't road worthy.

LOL.... there are no rivets on it at all. Those are hex bolts. It's all metal too, that aircraft type metal. I don't know exactly what it is called but like a heavy duty alloy? Everything locks in to the frame too when you unfold it out so quite robust.

The guy who owns the one in the link I have posted has ridden his regularly for over a year now. 7 or 8 miles each way to work and back, so around a 15 miles round trip. His is still as new, not loose or wabbly or anything. The motors are both hub motors so no real maintenance as such compared to belt or chain driven which are supposed to be a bit of a pain. Another reason I opted for this particular model...

The new 2019 model of this same scooter gets 3600w of power down, 1800w per wheel! The suspension and stuff is upgraded a bit for that. Air suspension and hydraulic brakes and stuff. I think it's a bit beefier all over and around too.

Now you better sit down for this... the 2019 sports model gets 5400w of power down! Even I would be a bit wary of jumping on that thing! That must really shift! Mine will wheel spin both ends if your too heavy on the throttle so how they keep 5400w under control is a bit beyond me.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 03:33:43 pm by Terry01 »
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