Poll

My electric shock experience

Never had one, never will, I think I know what I'm doing
4 (1.5%)
Never had one, but it's probably inevitable anyway
8 (3%)
Had a minor tingle once or twice, I learned the hard way
50 (18.7%)
Had a few, but nothing to write home about
115 (43.1%)
Had at least one life threatening shock, hopefully never again
90 (33.7%)

Total Members Voted: 264

Author Topic: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive  (Read 57625 times)

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Online Zero999

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #125 on: March 15, 2015, 06:32:48 pm »
From that point of view today, 50 or 60 Hz mains is a interesting selection...

Higher frequencies are more dangerous. Lower frequencies and you can't even adjust to not notice the flickering light bulbs, you always will.
What are you talking about? Higher frequencies (above 20kHz) are not as dangerous because they do not stimulate the nerves and cannot cause ventricular fibrillation. The only hazard is heating and burns which can be deep.
 

Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #126 on: March 15, 2015, 06:38:55 pm »
From that point of view today, 50 or 60 Hz mains is a interesting selection...

Higher frequencies are more dangerous. Lower frequencies and you can't even adjust to not notice the flickering light bulbs, you always will.
What are you talking about? Higher frequencies (above 20kHz) are not as dangerous because they do not stimulate the nerves and cannot cause ventricular fibrillation. The only hazard is heating and burns which can be deep.

That's how many orders of magnitude higher than would be practical for mains supplies?
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Online Zero999

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #127 on: March 16, 2015, 09:05:42 am »
That's how many orders of magnitude higher than would be practical for mains supplies?
What exactly were you saying then?

You said:
From that point of view today, 50 or 60 Hz mains is a interesting selection...

Higher frequencies are more dangerous. Lower frequencies and you can't even adjust to not notice the flickering light bulbs, you always will.
But it isn't true. Higher frequencies are less dangerous than mains frequencies.

It's probably true that extremely low frequencies (under a 4Hz or so) are less dangerous than mains because the it doesn't have the same effect on the nerves and gives you time to react and pull away when the voltage cross through zeros.
 

Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #128 on: March 16, 2015, 09:54:34 am »
That's how many orders of magnitude higher than would be practical for mains supplies?
What exactly were you saying then?

Well I was led to believe (due to health and safety literature) that up to a few hundred hertz your survivability is inverse to the frequency, mainly due to the capacitive properties of the body making it easier for lower voltages to pass through it at higher frequencies. And the comment I was replying to was specifically on about frequencies chosen for mains supplies. 20khz plus may be much safer but that would waste how much power in distribution?
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Offline KJDS

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #129 on: March 16, 2015, 09:57:43 am »
I've had a few hundred volts at 1.8GHz. That just burns, deeply, not fun at all.

Online Zero999

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #130 on: March 16, 2015, 10:23:02 am »
Well I was led to believe (due to health and safety literature) that up to a few hundred hertz your survivability is inverse to the frequency, mainly due to the capacitive properties of the body making it easier for lower voltages to pass through it at higher frequencies. And the comment I was replying to was specifically on about frequencies chosen for mains supplies. 20khz plus may be much safer but that would waste how much power in distribution?
Who said anything about distributing power at greater than 20kHz?
 

Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #131 on: March 16, 2015, 10:27:21 am »
Who said anything about distributing power at greater than 20kHz?

In context, you ;)
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #132 on: March 16, 2015, 12:06:45 pm »
Who said anything about distributing power at greater than 20kHz?

In context, you ;)

Well, the father of AC always believed in higher frequencies as more beneficial all around, and funny enough 20KHz was the barrier he encountered before coming up with the tesla coil.
http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_hifreq.html
 

Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #133 on: March 16, 2015, 12:16:23 pm »
Well, the father of AC always believed in higher frequencies as more beneficial all around, and funny enough 20KHz was the barrier he encountered before coming up with the tesla coil.
http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_hifreq.html

Father of AC is overstating it more than a smidgen, seeing as its first practical use was developed 24 years before his birth and based directly on Faraday's work. One of the fathers of AC motors would be true though.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 12:21:19 pm by Mechanical Menace »
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #134 on: March 16, 2015, 12:24:35 pm »
True, I should have said the father of the AC electric grid.

But the point was about the frequency.
 

Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #135 on: March 16, 2015, 01:00:52 pm »
True, I should have said the father of the AC electric grid.

But the point was about the frequency.

As much as I think Tesla was an unqualified (if definitely insane) genius his cultists give him the credit for an awful lot of things he didn't do and that's just as disgusting as others getting the credit for Tesla's work. Just scanning that PBS article had them do it with X-ray photography, ignoring Puluj and Sanford and I had a knee jerk reaction, sorry.
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Online tom66

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #136 on: March 16, 2015, 01:07:27 pm »
The problem with AC much higher than say 100Hz is it would probably be a lot more audible than the current frequency. To overcome this you'd have to go to something like 18kHz+ which would have far too many capacitive and inductive losses along long power transmission lines.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #137 on: March 16, 2015, 01:21:07 pm »
The problem with AC much higher than say 100Hz is it would probably be a lot more audible than the current frequency. To overcome this you'd have to go to something like 18kHz+ which would have far too many capacitive and inductive losses along long power transmission lines.
There are no such thing as capacitive and inductive losses. At higher frequencies more power is lost due to the skin effect, radiation, hysteresis and dielectric absorption which all manifest themselves as extra resistances.

One of the benefits of low frequencies is long cables can be used before the transmission line effects are significant. The wavelength of 50Hz is 6000km so it's only very long distance cables which suffer from transmission line effects.
 

Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #138 on: March 16, 2015, 01:33:20 pm »
There are no such thing as capacitive and inductive losses. At higher frequencies more power is lost due to the skin effect, radiation, hysteresis and dielectric absorption which all manifest themselves as extra resistances.line effects.

Really? An awful lot of things I've read on the matter seem to say the skin effect would be negligible and that capacitive losses are real and the major stumbling block for high frequency grid power...

Honest question, any suggestions on reading material on the subject?
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #139 on: March 16, 2015, 04:21:34 pm »
A properly made transmission line is just that, a transmission line: it obeys the Telegrapher's equations and transmits power, not purely voltage or current alone.

However, once you start packing all the energy into the EM field between the conductors like that, you depend upon transmission line effects.  While it could be handled, it makes things that much more difficult than they already are.

As is, lines are well under 1/4 wavelength, so they can be treated as simple lumped LC networks, and LC networks can be used to compensate for their impedance (such as: line reactors to tune the capacitance, and tap changers to compensate for the voltage drop).  And that impedance isn't a terribly large fraction of the load impedance, so the voltage regulation isn't screwed up too badly.  Compensation networks (line reactors, tap changers) need only modest tuning ranges (or can be static fixed components), so they don't cost all that much.

You'd also have to control for interference effects.  The grid should be a strict tree structure, with no cycles (loops), and carefully aligned parallel transmission lines where extra capacity is needed.  Precision, and probably self adjusting, phase matchers would be needed to combine multiple power plants, or to implement loops or interconnect sub-grids.  (So, it wouldn't be much of a "grid" anymore.)

The transmission lines themselves would be more expensive, since they have to twist or swap every 1/4 wavelength, or be made in some twisted or interleaved pattern that minimizes radiation.  Not to mention [true, resistive] losses due to skin effect, induction in the support structures, radiation and so on.

Strictly speaking, "capacitive or inductive loss" is preposterous, but the implied effect is real: a robust power transmission system should have a low impedance (constant voltage) characteristic, but a transmission line system must be impedance matched -- and as such, no point in the middle of the system will have a low impedance, making the compensation and regulation hardware massively more involved (wider tuning / adjustable range, more control units in more locations, more emphasis on point-of-load regulation, etc.).

Safety may also be a concern.  At 50/60Hz, there's a few milliseconds between pulses during which arcs have a chance to cool down and break.  This is still not enough on the biggest feeders, but at lower voltages and currents, it helps greatly with safety and fusing.  High frequencies would require very expensive fuses; I'm not even sure what technology is used for high frequency or RF fuses.  With power pulsating faster than the thermal time constant of even very small arcs, it behaves essentially as DC, very difficult to break.

Presently, DC is in use, but only on individual feeders over very long distances, where the efficiency and capacity advantage is too great to turn down.  With the vast preponderance of switching supplies today, it might be tempting to entertain DC as a domestic distribution method, but besides the enormous infrastructure cost of implementing it, it probably just wouldn't be a safe enough idea -- electrolysis and tracking on leaky insulators, static fields around everything (imagine the dust -- and insect and bird -- collection power!), nearly unbreakable arcs (expensive fuses, switchgear).

Afraid I don't know much about references or research concerning the subject.  It's an interesting idea to entertain, in a generally useful subject, regardless of its economic or safety drawbacks.

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Online Zero999

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #140 on: March 16, 2015, 08:37:56 pm »
Really? An awful lot of things I've read on the matter seem to say the skin effect would be negligible and that capacitive losses are real and the major stumbling block for high frequency grid power...

Honest question, any suggestions on reading material on the subject?
Anything you've read which talks about inductive or capacitive losses is either grossly simplified or plain wrong.

Capacitors and inductors do not dissipate any energy, only store it. The only circuit element which can dissipate energy is resistance, whether it be linear (i.e. a resistor) or non-linear (i.e. a semiconductor.

It's true that energy can be coupled between two conductors due to their mutual capacitance or inductance and at higher frequencies this effect increases, but again it's resistance which actually dissipates the energy, both in the primary and secondary conductor. A barbed wired fence running along side a power line will have an electric current induced in it, but it's its internal resistance and that of the power line which are dissipating the energy, rather than capacitance or inductance. If the power line and fence were both superconductors then no energy would be dissipated. However, as frequencies increase further, cables can act as antennas and power can is radiated away in the form of electromagnetic radiation, even if everything is super conducting: a small resistance will appear at AC known as the radiation resistance.

The only thing I can suggest reading about is inductors, capacitors, RF and transmission lines in general.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #141 on: March 17, 2015, 02:36:55 am »
Really? An awful lot of things I've read on the matter seem to say the skin effect would be negligible and that capacitive losses are real and the major stumbling block for high frequency grid power...

Honest question, any suggestions on reading material on the subject?
Anything you've read which talks about inductive or capacitive losses is either grossly simplified or plain wrong.

I already explained the slightly odd meaning of this.

Strictly speaking, "capacitive or inductive loss" is preposterous, but the implied effect is real: a robust power transmission system should have a low impedance (constant voltage) characteristic, but a transmission line system must be impedance matched -- and as such, no point in the middle of the system will have a low impedance, making the compensation and regulation hardware massively more involved (wider tuning / adjustable range, more control units in more locations, more emphasis on point-of-load regulation, etc.).

Point being... put an inductor in series with a lamp, does the voltage drop?  HELL YEAH IT DROPS!  Did the inductor dissipate power?  No (to the first order).  To be perfectly correct: it reflected some power.  But the end result is the same, less power at the load.  This is what's meant.  Such "losses" appear in a whole lot more places than transmission lines, so it's a useful concept to be aware of.

Do I really have to break my messages into little Twitter-friendly bits?  Do people not actually read anymore?...  Or most people are ignoring me, which would be a terrible loss if I do say so myself...

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Offline Tallie

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #142 on: March 17, 2015, 03:16:15 am »
I licked a 9 volt battery once...
 

Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #143 on: March 17, 2015, 04:46:18 pm »
Or most people are ignoring me, which would be a terrible loss if I do say so myself...

Lol, I read your's and Hero999's responses and thanks to the pair of you. I just didn't think "oh an untrue convenience like centrifugal forces" was a great response :P
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Offline jaxbird

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #144 on: March 17, 2015, 05:08:47 pm »
The funnies one I've experienced myself was, when, as a teenager, I used to remove isolation with my teeth and I was installing a land line phone, so I just put the wires in my mouth to remove the isolation (hey, phone lines are low voltage), but unfortunately someone made a call at the exact same time, causing a reasonably high AC voltage through the line, and me on my knees under a desk with wires in my mouth, slammed my head in the desk ;D

The worst one was checking a 240VAC socket using one of those screwdriver things you put your thumb at the end and it will light up. Unfortunately the socket was wired just fine, but the screwdriver thing was shorter, resulting in quite a jolt, my elbow almost knocking the guy standing behind me unconscious. :o  (I have not used one of those devices ever since)

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Offline sacherjj

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #145 on: March 17, 2015, 05:47:58 pm »
Two major instances for me.  First when I was around 5 years old.  We had a 115V extension cord with a 15mm diameter or more cord, with a jack that was monstrous.  I did not realize that it was an extension cord and thought it was a lock.  So I "unlocked it".  I remember not being able to let go of the key and my sister seeing me, scream and run away.  My grandmother was watching us and she decided to unplug the cord, rather than try to hit me with the broom she picked up.

My other bad one was getting run into with a small fork lift and pushed into a 480V box.  I arced across my pinky and cooked it.  It is back to normal with only a scar at the entry point.

In addition to that, I've had a few 60 Hz "hellos" when brushing against something I shouldn't.  I keep that as rare as possible and always practice the one hand rule when working on high power.  Insulated feet and only one hand in use at a time.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 05:50:00 pm by sacherjj »
 

Offline radix

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #146 on: March 17, 2015, 09:10:33 pm »
I received a shock across my arms and chest when playing with an ignition coil. Nothing major, it just hurts.
When I was experimenting with neon glow lamps, I used a doorbell transformer fed from a model rail ac transformer wired as an isolation transformer. I accidentaly grabbed hold of the secondary (a bit more than 200V AC ). It also just hurt, and i could easily let go. It was probbably due to the small power of the complete setup.
Only recently I had my first real encounter with the mains (230V 50Hz here). A piece of gear had voltage regulators bolted on to the housing. The housing was grounded. As I reached in with my hand to feel if the regulators are getting excessively warm, I touched the power switch (I forgot to pull the plug) which had bare solder joints (it was an old piece of gear). I'm not exactly sure if it was a live wire directly from the socket or through the primay of the power transformer. Anyway, I bridged the line to ground with my index and middle finger. I quickly pulled my hand back. Again it just hurt a bit. Maybe I was lucky that I was wearing flipflops.

But in general touching the live wire doesn't have to be a big deal. An electrician I know likes to demonstrate how he grabs hold of the live and nothing happens. Offcourse he does it indoors in a dry area with his boots on. Heck, even I might have been touching the live wire when I accidentally connected it to a signal ground of an RS232 plotter. It had a plastic housing and I only noticed that it is miswired when I pluggen the serial cable into the PC. It blew the breaker but everything survived.

And after reading this I can't help but wonder, why is 400/415/whatever V of the three phase power line such a big deal. You have to be extremely lucky to get in contact with two or more phases...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 09:13:15 pm by radix »
 

Offline ConKbot

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #147 on: March 17, 2015, 10:50:27 pm »
I received a shock across my arms and chest when playing with an ignition coil. Nothing major, it just hurts.
When I was experimenting with neon glow lamps, I used a doorbell transformer fed from a model rail ac transformer wired as an isolation transformer. I accidentaly grabbed hold of the secondary (a bit more than 200V AC ). It also just hurt, and i could easily let go. It was probbably due to the small power of the complete setup.
Only recently I had my first real encounter with the mains (230V 50Hz here). A piece of gear had voltage regulators bolted on to the housing. The housing was grounded. As I reached in with my hand to feel if the regulators are getting excessively warm, I touched the power switch (I forgot to pull the plug) which had bare solder joints (it was an old piece of gear). I'm not exactly sure if it was a live wire directly from the socket or through the primay of the power transformer. Anyway, I bridged the line to ground with my index and middle finger. I quickly pulled my hand back. Again it just hurt a bit. Maybe I was lucky that I was wearing flipflops.

But in general touching the live wire doesn't have to be a big deal. An electrician I know likes to demonstrate how he grabs hold of the live and nothing happens. Offcourse he does it indoors in a dry area with his boots on. Heck, even I might have been touching the live wire when I accidentally connected it to a signal ground of an RS232 plotter. It had a plastic housing and I only noticed that it is miswired when I pluggen the serial cable into the PC. It blew the breaker but everything survived.

And after reading this I can't help but wonder, why is 400/415/whatever V of the three phase power line such a big deal. You have to be extremely lucky to get in contact with two or more phases...
When youre in a 460V (in the US) panel, chances are it has a rather beefy main breaker and a pretty low source impedance on the tranformer. So while 460V line to line isnt enough to arc though air, if you accidentally short it, the resulting arc and arc-flash from it can be very dangerous if youre not in arc-flash rated clothing.  Low chance of occurrence with proper technique, severe consequences if it does, making it a medium risk.   




compared to
 

The first vid may have a larger than average source current available, either way when the pros kill the main breaker just to pop in a circuit breaker, vs working on it live like in a residential, I think I'll be sure to give it due respect also.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #148 on: March 17, 2015, 11:20:40 pm »
I like the "ding" at the end of the first video. "food is ready!"  :-DD
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Electric shock experiences - for those still alive
« Reply #149 on: March 17, 2015, 11:23:57 pm »
I already explained the slightly odd meaning of this.

Strictly speaking, "capacitive or inductive loss" is preposterous, but the implied effect is real: a robust power transmission system should have a low impedance (constant voltage) characteristic, but a transmission line system must be impedance matched -- and as such, no point in the middle of the system will have a low impedance, making the compensation and regulation hardware massively more involved (wider tuning / adjustable range, more control units in more locations, more emphasis on point-of-load regulation, etc.).

Point being... put an inductor in series with a lamp, does the voltage drop?  HELL YEAH IT DROPS!  Did the inductor dissipate power?  No (to the first order).  To be perfectly correct: it reflected some power.  But the end result is the same, less power at the load.  This is what's meant.  Such "losses" appear in a whole lot more places than transmission lines, so it's a useful concept to be aware of.

Do I really have to break my messages into little Twitter-friendly bits?  Do people not actually read anymore?...  Or most people are ignoring me, which would be a terrible loss if I do say so myself...

Tim
I read every single word of your post and understood it before replying.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 11:57:41 pm by Hero999 »
 


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